Are morals relative?

[DareDemon]

I really haven't explained myself well. I doubt I will be able to.

I'm not Chritian-lite, although I do not believe everything should be taken at face value from the Bible. I'm not fanatical either.

What I mean to say is: Morals are something anyone can adopt and fit to themselves. So what it right to one person is wrong to another. So it's right and wrong, just on different scales.

Does anyone get what I'm trying to say?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

What I mean to say is: Morals are something anyone can adopt and fit to themselves. So what it right to one person is wrong to another. So it's right and wrong, just on different scales.

Yes. That is how it is, unless you believe in the authority of a deity, within a religious context.
Then, someone might not think something is wrong, so they are not morally opposed to it, BUT, in the eyes of the "Deity", they are wrong. They are mistaken.

Christianity is one of the religions where they claim that God has set down the definitive standards for what is right and wrong.

Some people, most people, do not think it is morally wrong to, say, lust after a woman, just glance at her as she walks by and imagine her naked, whatever.

But JESUS, said that they are all wrong...that if you do that, you are guilty of adultery, which is an abomination, punishable by an Eternity in never ending torment and separation from God.

That's WHY Christianity, and the other organized religions that claim to have divine edict revealed to them, are so obnoxious...because they say THEY know what is Right and what is Wrong, based on the ULTIMATE, Divine, Perfect, Holy authority of the Creator of the entire Universe, so, since that God is perfect, anyone that disagrees with him, his Black+White WRONG.

 

[DareDemon]

Yes. That is how it is, unless you believe in the authority of a deity, within a religious context.
Then, someone might not think something is wrong, so they are not morally opposed to it, BUT, in the eyes of the "Deity", they are wrong. They are mistaken.

Christianity is one of the religions where they claim that God has set down the definitive standards for what is right and wrong.

Some people, most people, do not think it is morally wrong to, say, lust after a woman, just glance at her as she walks by and imagine her naked, whatever.

But JESUS, said that they are all wrong...that if you do that, you are guilty of adultery, which is an abomination, punishable by an Eternity in never ending torment and separation from God.

That's WHY Christianity, and the other organized religions that claim to have divine edict revealed to them, are so obnoxious...because they say THEY know what is Right and what is Wrong, based on the ULTIMATE, Divine, Perfect, Holy authority of the Creator of the entire Universe, so, since that God is perfect, anyone that disagrees with him, his Black+White WRONG.

But what about an athiest who thinks it's morally wrong? What about the person who thinks it's okay? They both believe they're the ones right about the subject.

 

[November Rain]

Scream is not really talking about the thread topic, just that lil segment of not completely adhering to the Word of God thing.

You are now officially off-topic in your own thread.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

But what about an athiest who thinks it's morally wrong? What about the person who thinks it's okay? They both believe they're the ones right about the subject.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
A thinking person knows that there is no "Manual for Living on Earth".
No rules were set down anywhere, so, you can only look at behavior and then decide if you think it is wrong or right, and then, a societal consensus forms.
But a "Christian" doesn't believe that. They believe that rules for living HAVE been set down, literally in stone...and that there is a way that appears to be right to a man, but men are faulty, so we derive our TRUE, binding sense of what is ACTUALLY "Right" and Wrong", from a higher authority.

If you believe in the Christian God, then anyone who feels differently than the Christian God, is wrong. It's not subjective, or a matter of opinion, in the light of this supposed infallible, divine authority of the Creator of the Universe.

If God says it's "wrong", it is wrong, end of story, IF that God is real.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

And what puzzles me to no end is why folks like Wilhelm seem to hold such a terrible opinion and disregard of anyone whose allegiances are higher than the human mind. I cannot speak for anyone else who labels themselves a Christian, but I believe that since God created mankind, then ultimately He knows what is best for me...even more than I do. He gave me a mind to determine solutions to problems, not to continually try and redefine His rules to suit myself.

There comes a time in most every person's life, where a decision must be made to either respect God out of reverence and love, or reject Him out of hatred and fear. I've been in many situations (sometimes on a daily basis), where I have to remind myself of the commitment I made: that I'm called to live in the world, but not adhere to its ever-changing system. My ultimate allegiance is to God the Father and Jesus Christ. As such, my morality is based not just on emotion, desire, or populat trends...but a commitment made out of love.

In principle, it's not much different from the spiritual side of a marriage, in that a man pledges himself to his wife for as long as they live. Well, by that reckoning, a Christian's commitment to God is made for a lifetime, and sometimes it must be reiterated daily.

 

[Dangerous]

I am not a chistian but I do have my own moral code.

I don't cheat on someone if I am in a relationship, and I don't steal or harm someone whom I have no relation and/or has done nothing bad to me.
Also if someone was in trouble I would try my best to help them.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

And what puzzles me to no end is why folks like Wilhelm seem to hold such a terrible opinion and disregard of anyone whose allegiances are higher than the human mind.

You can't have an allegiance that's higher than the human mind.
All you have is the human mind.
Your human mind gives allegiance.

 

[Memphis Slim]

I am not a chistian but I do have my own moral code.

I don't cheat on someone if I am in a relationship, and I don't steal or harm someone whom I have no relation and/or has done nothing bad to me.
Also if someone was in trouble I would try my best to help them.

But you didn't come up with that on your own.

You deemed those things to be "good" things to practice. Therefore to do the opposite must be "bad".

Humans don't just make up our laws. We know instinctively what is right and wrong.

Check this out:

Romans 1
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Romans 2

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.



Both of those passages were written over 2,000 years ago. They were true then and true now. Men know what is right and wrong in their hearts. But man also has the ability to choose which way he wants to go. You know it's wrong to steal, even without the law. You know it's wrong to cheat on your spouse.....etc...etc.

God is the the standard bearer and He has imprinted those standards in us at birth.

I already know the feasting will begin. But none of you hvae really addressed this from this angle.

 

[DV8]

I saw this program on Discovery Times about this sect of Baptists somewhere in the south . . . they would rally at solidiers' funerals with signs that basically said that these solidiers died because our country is full of nothing but '*** Lovers' they were absolutely out of line with their message and were supposedly doing people some kind of 'favor' . . . .

sorry . . . back on topic . . .

 

[Kritish]

But you didn't come up with that on your own.

You deemed those things to be "good" things to practice. Therefore to do the opposite must be "bad".

Humans don't just make up our laws. We know instinctively what is right and wrong.

Check this out:

Romans 1
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Romans 2

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.



Both of those passages were written over 2,000 years ago. They were true then and true now. Men know what is right and wrong in their hearts. But man also has the ability to choose which way he wants to go. You know it's wrong to steal, even without the law. You know it's wrong to cheat on your spouse.....etc...etc.

God is the the standard bearer and He has imprinted those standards in us at birth.

I already know the feasting will begin. But none of you hvae really addressed this from this angle.

That's cute, no defend your position without a book thats contents cannot be proven.

 

[Memphis Slim]

That's cute, no defend your position without a book thats contents cannot be proven.

sigh......

 

[Memphis Slim]

I saw this program on Discovery Times about this sect of Baptists somewhere in the south . . . they would rally at solidiers' funerals with signs that basically said that these solidiers died because our country is full of nothing but '*** Lovers' they were absolutely out of line with their message and were supposedly doing people some kind of 'favor' . . . .

sorry . . . back on topic . . .

cute.....

 

[Moviefan2k4]

You can't have an allegiance that's higher than the human mind. All you have is the human mind. Your human mind gives allegiance.

I respectfuly disagree on this point. I believe that allegiance is a choice based on faith, and faith comes from the soul or "heart", not the mind. If faith were mentally-dependent, then the mentally disabled would have no concept of it...but I've seen and read about handicapped folks who have much more faith than I do.

 

[Mister Sinister]

Morality is about how you treat others. In my mind euthanasia is moral, whereas keeping someone alive suffering when they want it to end is immoral.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

sigh......

What could there possibly be to roll your eyes at?

You made a statement of "fact":

God is the the standard bearer and He has imprinted those standards in us at birth.

No.
Baloney.
False.

You think I'm wrong?
Prove it.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Morality is about how you treat others. In my mind euthanasia is moral, whereas keeping someone alive suffering when they want it to end is immoral.

Again, I would say it depends on the context in a situation like that. For example, if the person wishes to die, but is deemed mentally unsound by a doctor, then how would anyone know for certain whether the "death wish" was real? It becomes even more fuzzy when dealing with stuff like medically-assisted suicide (for which Jack Kevorkian is infamous). Simply put, my belief on such matters is that in general, a person who truly wishes to die will find a way to do so, and those who don't will find a way to either prevent it, or make a radical move as a cry for help.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Funny how morals change, isn't? We went to war with the Nazis and were outraged at the atrocities they were commiting against the Jewish people, atrcities not unlike what we were doing to Native Americans 60 years earlier. So, either time plays a factor, or (and I really believe this is it) morals ARE relative. It's always been an us versus them mentality. I can do this, but you cannot. We have more nuclear weapons than any other country on the planet, and wage war on countries for having a nuclear program-not a weapon-just a program.

How can we as Americans say that morals are not relative? I can't see it. Our history, and sadly, our presnent is filled with examples of us upholding morality with one hand, while stabing it in the back with the other.

Also, to say morals are not relative is ignorant and pretentious. Essentially what you are really saying is that what you hold morally right, is in fact the right. Who the hell are you to make that choice? In India it is morally wrong to kill a cow. Over here, McDonalds kills millions of them. Do we think that is wrong? No. But if we believe in only right and only wrong, that means that we mean it when we say it that killing cows is not wrong. Meanwhile, Hindus are praying to the animals. So in that case, who is right and who is wrong? Answer: neither. Because. It. Is. All. Relative.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Funny how morals change, isn't? We went to war with the Nazis and were outraged at the atrocities they were commiting against the Jewish people, atrcities not unlike what we were doing to Native Americans 60 years earlier. So, either time plays a factor, or (and I really believe this is it) morals ARE relative. It's always been an us versus them mentality. I can do this, but you cannot. We have more nuclear weapons than any other country on the planet, and wage war on countries for having a nuclear program-not a weapon-just a program.

How can we as Americans say that morals are not relative? I can't see it. Our history, and sadly, our presnent is filled with examples of us upholding morality with one hand, while stabing it in the back with the other.

Is intentionally killing unarmed men, women and children wrong?

HIROSHIMA.

Also, to say morals are not relative is ignorant and pretentious. Essentially what you are really saying is that what you hold morally right, is in fact the right. Who the hell are you to make that choice? In India it is morally wrong to kill a cow. Over here, McDonalds kills millions of them. Do we think that is wrong? No. But if we believe in only right and only wrong, that means that we mean it when we say it that killing cows is not wrong. Meanwhile, Hindus are praying to the animals. So in that case, who is right and who is wrong? Answer: neither. Because. It. Is. All. Relative.

Thanks for being smart. ^

 

[Steve Rogers]

I have my moments, Wil.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Steve, what you've been describing is also known as "situational ethics", and in most cases, that mentality causes much more damage than benefit. Generally speaking, mankind has been trying to go against God's original moral design for centuries, endlessly seeking to replace that standard with one that people would find more acceptable. The problem with this is the fact that when all is said and done, we as a race are not capable of knwing everything, whereas God does. He sees each and every solution to any given problem, no matter what, where, why, how, or when. The answer to your question of "who are we to decide what is right and wrong" is very simple...it's not our call. It never was, and never will be. God determines truth, justice, morality, and decency. The divisions amongst us all are the result of our not wanting to accept that, and have our own way.

 

[Zoken]

Oh Dear. Wilhelm and Krit have got Religion in their nostrils. Now they're going to try and tell people what they believe diregarding the fact that people as individuals have differing views and differing interpretations even within the same religion. And that we admit to being flawed beings who ATTEMPT to be like God and Jesus, but ultimately fail. They'll also neglect to realize that for these reasons Catholics created the sacrament of reconciliation.

I like you guys, but when it comes to religion you two are like dogs with bones.

Oh, and of course Memphis will back everything up with the bible, not realize that most of the world is NOT CHRISTIAN and in order to convince them he'd have to use other methods.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Oh Dear. Wilhelm and Krit have got Religion in their nostrils.

Yes. When moviefan or Cell Dog start telling us "God did this." or " God says that.", or "God said this is wrong, so it is wrong.", it wafts up into my nose.

Now they're going to try and tell people what they believe diregarding the fact that people as individuals have differing views and differing interpretations even within the same religion.

I don't tell people what they believe. They tell me what they believe and then I either disagree with that belief and show them why, or I agree with them.

And that we admit to being flawed beings who ATTEMPT to be like God and Jesus, but ultimately fail.

That's not a sentence so I don't understand what you were trying to say there.

They'll also neglect to realize that for these reasons Catholics created the sacrament of reconciliation.

I don't neglect to realize that.
We've already discovered in the past that I know more about Catholicism than you.

I like you guys, but when it comes to religion you two are like dogs with bones.

Yes, I will tenaciously continue to try to help others out of the delusion of religion now that I've escaped it, Thank GOD!
I will also never stop being vocally disgusted with it.

Oh, and of course Memphis will back everything up with the bible, not realize that most of the world is NOT CHRISTIAN and in order to convince them he'd have to use other methods.

Yes, it's so weird.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Generally speaking, mankind has been trying to go against God's original moral design for centuries, endlessly seeking to replace that standard with one that people would find more acceptable.

This is what I'm saying. You believe that it's God's way or the highway-and that's fine. I'm not knocking you. I think it important to have faith, a belief, a fable, something, anything to help along the way in this unorganized mess we call life.

But.

There are many more relegions on this Earth than just Christianity. God's moral design does not apply to these other relegions, many of which are a lot older than Christianity. So again, who's right and who's wrong? Are the Christians right because God said so? Are Buddhists right for following the eight-fold path to Enlightenment? Again, it's neither. You can't base morals on relegion and call it black and white. There are simply too many relegions and too many morals out there to do that.

 

[Zoken]

Yes. When moviefan or Cell Dog start telling us "God did this." or " God says that.", or "God said this is wrong, so it is wrong.", it wafts up into my nose. I don't tell people what they believe. They tell me what they believe and then I either disagree with that belief and show them why, or I agree with them.

Actually you're right, it was Fish-Bulb who tried to tell me who I believed.

That's not a sentence so I don't understand what you were trying to say there.

My bad, my typing can be attrocious at times. I still don't know how I managed to rate 50 WPM. I was just pointing out that we admit to being unable to follow our own rules though we do try... usually... yea, I know Religion=bad.

I don't neglect to realize that.
We've already discovered in the past that I know more about Catholicism than you.

Damn you and your memory. Yeah, yeah. You know a good deal about Catholicism. Pride won't let me say you know more... I guess it's time for confession.

Yes, I will tenaciously continue to try to help others out of the delusion of religion now that I've escaped it, Thank GOD!
I will also never stop being vocally disgusted with it.

And that's why I'll continue to respect you.

Yes, it's so weird.

They never learn. They're almost as bad as Rodhulk pretended to be.