Are morals relative?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

lol, "Fish Bulb" ?

 

[Zoken]

Mr. Sparkle.

 

[cundog]

Funny how morals change, isn't? We went to war with the Nazis and were outraged at the atrocities they were commiting against the Jewish people, atrcities not unlike what we were doing to Native Americans 60 years earlier. So, either time plays a factor, or (and I really believe this is it) morals ARE relative. It's always been an us versus them mentality. I can do this, but you cannot. We have more nuclear weapons than any other country on the planet, and wage war on countries for having a nuclear program-not a weapon-just a program.

How can we as Americans say that morals are not relative? I can't see it. Our history, and sadly, our presnent is filled with examples of us upholding morality with one hand, while stabing it in the back with the other.

Also, to say morals are not relative is ignorant and pretentious. Essentially what you are really saying is that what you hold morally right, is in fact the right. Who the hell are you to make that choice? In India it is morally wrong to kill a cow. Over here, McDonalds kills millions of them. Do we think that is wrong? No. But if we believe in only right and only wrong, that means that we mean it when we say it that killing cows is not wrong. Meanwhile, Hindus are praying to the animals. So in that case, who is right and who is wrong? Answer: neither. Because. It. Is. All. Relative.

^ I like this

Of course morals are relative. To the people who flew the planes into the World Trade Centre, their actions were completely morally justified. Morality is temporally, contextually and geographically dependant.

 

[Steve Rogers]

^ I like this

Of course morals are relative. To the people who flew the planes into the World Trade Centre, their actions were completely morally justified. Morality is temporally, contextually and geographically dependant.

And I like this.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

God's moral design does not apply to these other religions, many of which are a lot older than Christianity. So again, who's right and who's wrong? Are the Christians right because God said so?

More like God is always right, and Christians are simply His mouthpiece. We may not always say or do the right things, but more often than not, we do what He asks of us, to be an example of Him to a fallen world.

Are Buddhists right for following the eight-fold path to Enlightenment?

In my opinion, God says, "Have no other gods before Me" for a reason. He makes the rules as our heavenly Father, expects us to follow them, and loves us eternally, even when we fail.

You can't base morals on religion and call it black and white. There are simply too many religions and too many morals out there to do that.

So, by your reasoning, greater numbers equal a larger claim to the truth? Sorry; I just don't see it that way. Jesus was the minority during His ministry, God in the flesh, surrounded by people He was sent to redeem from sin and selfishness. He was unique and divinely powerful, but chose to associate with thieves, tax collectors, and prostitutes. Why? Because He knew they needed saving, and the Pharisees (the religious majority of their day) were too convinced of their own superiority to be of any use.

 

[Memphis Slim]

^ I like this

Of course morals are relative. To the people who flew the planes into the World Trade Centre, their actions were completely morally justified. Morality is temporally, contextually and geographically dependant.

Again,,,,men have the ability to reason away what they know to be wrong.

 

[Steve Rogers]

More like God is always right, and Christians are simply His mouthpiece. We may not always say or do the right things, but more often than not, we do what He asks of us, to be an example of Him to a fallen world.

So you are saying that anyone who is not a Christian is morally worng?

In my opinion, God says, "Have no other gods before Me" for a reason. He makes the rules as our heavenly Father, expects us to follow them, and loves us eternally, even when we fail.

There is no god in Buddhism

So, by your reasoning, greater numbers equal a larger claim to the truth? Sorry; I just don't see it that way.

No, by my reasoning there are too many variables in terms of relegion to chalk it up to right and wrong Christianity style. Why is it okay for Christians to not believe in what other people believe in while it's horrible for non-Christians to not believe in what Christians believe in?

Jesus...chose to associate with...prostitutes. Why?

I'm not going there.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Ever stop to think that if all relegions learned to accept the beliefs of other relegions, all relegious wars would cease to exsist?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

So are you saying that anyone who is not a Christian is morally wrong?

In terms of a relationship with God, and the morals He has set, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes of all time was the response to an accusation. One person said, "Don't you think you're rather close-minded?"...and the response was simply "Yeah, but I can afford to be; I'm right."

See, Christians understand that our righteousness isn't based on anything we have done to earn it, but rather on what Jesus did so we might have it as a gift from the Father. Salvation is a free gift from the Creator of the cosmos; all He asks in return is that we accept and recieve it by faith.

There is no god in Buddhism.

My original quote of "Have no other gods before Me" is worded differently elsewhere in the Bible: "Love the Lord your God with all you heart; serve only Him." God wants to be the #1 priority in our lives, but He will not force Himself or His will upon us. Instead, He simply asks us to trust that He knows best...but again, the choice to do so (or not) is ours.

Why is it okay for Christians to reject what others believe in, while it's horrible for non-Christians reject what Christians believe in?

Long story short, God set the standard, and it is permanent. Truth is not determined by belief, as many would have people think. Truth is determined by how well a person's actions and motives line up with God...and when dealing with a fallen race, we always come up short. That's why Jesus was sent, so we might find peace with God through the Son and His sacrifice.

 

[Steve Rogers]

I don't even know what to say now

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Do you really think so? To me, killing and murder, are different. To kill someone in self defense is one thing, but to go out and murder someone for your own reasons, is totally different.

All humans tend to view death as "wrong", even when they use it as a means to an end. Justifying an action in a given situation and asking if it's "moral" to do such a thing is two different issues. Consider the sadistic choice. Would I/you rape a girl to prevent her murder? Just because the rape is done with some justification or rational doesn't necessarily therefore mean it is morally right or morally wrong. Therefore one could say that killing, for instance, is morally wrong yet legally or rationally it is justified in the act of protecting oneself.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

In terms of a relationship with God, and the morals He has set, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes of all time was the response to an accusation. One person said, "Don't you think you're rather close-minded?"...and the response was simply "Yeah, but I can afford to be; I'm right."

If I say 2+2=4, I'm right. If I say the sky is blue, I'm right. If I say my mother's name is Mary, I'm right with that too. If you say "God is real, and the Bible is the only way to go" there is some awfully big room for debate that you ought to consider whether you agree or not.

See, Christians understand that our righteousness isn't based on anything we have done to earn it, but rather on what Jesus did so we might have it as a gift from the Father. Salvation is a free gift from the Creator of the cosmos; all He asks in return is that we accept and recieve it by faith.

Then you aren't, by your definition, right. Right is something determined by being able to prove, either by logic or factual evidence, that you are correct in your thinking. "2+2=4" is, for example, an unchanging precept of traditional mathematics (there are some instances where it isn't true, but they are qualified). If I say it, logically, based on the number system I am using, I am right. I can, in that instance, afford to be close minded.

Now, I've never met God, never seen God, by his own admission and the Bible's he is beyond the realm of proof. In addition, I have never died and come back, nor has anyone, to my knowledge that I can verify. With that in mind, no you're not right. Not in the traditional sense, not even in the philosophical sense. You only think you're right, and unfortunately "thinking" implies the ability to doubt...so not right, not remotely.

My original quote of "Have no other gods before Me" is worded differently elsewhere in the Bible: "Love the Lord your God with all you heart; serve only Him." God wants to be the #1 priority in our lives, but He will not force Himself or His will upon us. Instead, He simply asks us to trust that He knows best...but again, the choice to do so (or not) is ours.

So, basically if I held a gun to someone's head and told them I would pull the trigger if they said no to me I'd be giving them a choice, right?

Long story short, God set the standard, and it is permanent. Truth is not determined by belief

In this sense it is. You said God is to be taken on faith, which is dictated by belief.

as many would have people think.

Things that are right leave little room for doubt.

Truth is determined by how well a person's actions and motives line up with God

Most modern philosophy and basically anything Socrates and onward gravely disagrees with this...but I assume that doesn't phase you.

...and when dealing with a fallen race, we always come up short. That's why Jesus was sent, so we might find peace with God through the Son and His sacrifice.

Surgeon General's Warning: This only applies to you when you believe in Christianity.

 

[Tempest19]

Yes, I killed a guy in Reno and I don't give a fck. Bastard deserved it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Also, to say morals are not relative is ignorant and pretentious. Essentially what you are really saying is that what you hold morally right, is in fact the right. Who the hell are you to make that choice?

That's incorrect. You can believe in morals without believing you necessarily have any claim to them. For example, Socrates believed highly in morals. He called them forms (of the good). However, the catch 22 was to figure out what the good was could take at least an entire lifetime and very few humans even had the capacity to understand it. Socrates himself only claimed to have glimsped the good, but never said directly he had any true knowledge of it.

The example you gave of killing cows. India does see that is wrong and the United States is apathetic to the cow, slaughtering millions to feed ourselves. That doesn't, however, necessarily mean the moral is relative, it could simply mean that one side, or maybe both doesn't understand the correct course of action in that particular example. Justifying or rationalizing a course of action is simply that...justifying or rationalizing it. You can justify or rationalize any action, all that takes is rhetoric.

Rhetoric though is illusory, it's simply a persuasive form of communicating. To understand something you must be able to conceptualize it, not just articulate it in a way that seems appealing to others...which is just about every example you gave.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Steve, what you've been describing is also known as "situational ethics", and in most cases, that mentality causes much more damage than benefit.

This may be the only thing you've ever said that I agree with...moving on...

Generally speaking, mankind has been trying to go against God's original moral design for centuries, endlessly seeking to replace that standard with one that people would find more acceptable.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Not that I'm saying Christianity, or any moral code old or new has nothing to offer, but to take something plainly at face value ESPECIALLY in the light of all the other philosophies that have and will exist is foolish beyond belief.

The problem with this is the fact that when all is said and done, we as a race are not capable of knwing everything, whereas God does.

Everything. No, probably not. Though I'm not convinced we need too frankly. Also, in the case of a "universial moral code", I think the human race...or at least enough of us...ARE capable of understanding such a thing. So, no, I don't think we need a God for that. IN FACT, I'd say, if anything, God functions as too much of a crutch in that instance. He provides incentive for someone not to examine other paths moreso than vice versa.

He sees each and every solution to any given problem, no matter what, where, why, how, or when. The answer to your question of "who are we to decide what is right and wrong" is very simple...it's not our call.

Well considering the Bible is written by man, even if it's inspired by God, it's still in that case our call. In addition, it ought to be our call. The problem is, though, that humans rarely understand themselves in even the slightest of degrees. I've worked out in a gym next to a McDonald's too long not to know this. However the conclusion the Bible comes to is man needs God to understand himself, something I disagree with...or at least find potentially as destructive as "situational ethics".

It never was, and never will be. God determines truth, justice, morality, and decency. The divisions amongst us all are the result of our not wanting to accept that, and have our own way.

I would also disagree that this moral code already exists somewhere known to us, I think if it did we'd have no choice in our minds but to follow it. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some know, or that even some have tried to create something others can understand...but I would doubt that such a code exists...or that if it did we'd bicker over it.

 

[Zoken]

In terms of a relationship with God, and the morals He has set, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes of all time was the response to an accusation. One person said, "Don't you think you're rather close-minded?"...and the response was simply "Yeah, but I can afford to be; I'm right."

You do realize that saying this is only going to piss people off right? I mean, I'm Catholic and you piss me off when you say it. Is not Pride one of the seven deadly sins? And is it not TOO Proud to claim you KNOW what God thinks.

See, Christians understand that our righteousness isn't based on anything we have done to earn it, but rather on what Jesus did so we might have it as a gift from the Father. Salvation is a free gift from the Creator of the cosmos; all He asks in return is that we accept and recieve it by faith.

You know, my understanding is that it was a gift to all humans, and he didn't specify it to anyone. In fact I was always taught that it was the Jewish people God had Chosen as his Chosen people, not any Christian sect.

My original quote of "Have no other gods before Me" is worded differently elsewhere in the Bible: "Love the Lord your God with all you heart; serve only Him." God wants to be the #1 priority in our lives, but He will not force Himself or His will upon us. Instead, He simply asks us to trust that He knows best...but again, the choice to do so (or not) is ours.

Nice that you flip flop your quotes. He's right by the way, Buddism has no diety. The Buddah was a spiritual leader who guided people to what became known as the eight-fold path to enlightenment so that they might one day reach Nirvana, a place that has always sounded suspiciously like heaven to me. In fact, I've noticed that when you read the actually wording and rules a lot of the religions sound similar.

Long story short, God set the standard, and it is permanent. Truth is not determined by belief, as many would have people think. Truth is determined by how well a person's actions and motives line up with God...and when dealing with a fallen race, we always come up short. That's why Jesus was sent, so we might find peace with God through the Son and His sacrifice.

I've always found it quite contradictory that God would call to his people and then, I'm told, reject those who might have never heard the message of Jesus. Remember, most of this world is NOT christian. Wouldn't the message of how we should live our lives (Humility, charity, empathy, sacrifice) be more important than the messanger? These are the beliefs of most of the religions in the world, from the Abrahamic religions, to Hindu, Buddism, even Wicca.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Morality,

Right and wrong vary from one society to another, from person to person. There is defnitive goodness or badness because it's all subjective. there is not something inherrant to things that makes it have the quality good, like an object can have the quality of blue.

Right and wrong are opinions, nothing more.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

You do realize that saying this is only going to piss people off right? I mean, I'm Catholic and you piss me off when you say it.

Well, in all truth, Jesus' message wasn't inclusive at all. He knew and spoke about the divisions that would be caused by people's faith in Him, or lack thereof. Most have this view of Jesus as a serene, quiet, all-around nice guy. Well, if Jesus was so PC for his time, then how on Earth would that have resulted in His crucifixion?! The Romans tried to kill him because he was blatantly and unapologetically going against pre-established ways. He said He was the only way to God, 100%. That's not PC at all; it's bold. Jesus showed his authority several times, like when calming the storm with His disciples in the boat. They were frightened, but Jesus stood and commanded the waves to relent...and because of His faith in the Father, they did.

Is not Pride one of the seven deadly sins? And is it not TOO Proud to claim you KNOW what God thinks.

There is a distinct and sincere difference between spiritual pride, and confidence in your status by faith in Christ. The former is selfish in nature, focused on the mentality that someone has "earned" or "done enough" to be accepted as pure by God. Confidence in Christ is merely recognizing that only Jesus' blood can make us righteous before God; nothing else will cover and wash away our sinful nature.

You know, my understanding is that it was a gift to all humans, and he didn't specify it to anyone. In fact I was always taught that it was the Jewish people God had Chosen as his Chosen people, not any Christian sect.

Christ did say His sacrifice was for both Jews and Gentiles, but He also stated that only through repentance and faith in Him could anyone enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the key for all who wish to enter Heaven, but a lot of people have outright rejected Him.

Nice that you flip flop your quotes. He's right by the way, Buddhism has no deity. The Buddha was a spiritual leader who guided people to what became known as the eight-fold path to enlightenment so that they might one day reach Nirvana, a place that has always sounded suspiciously like heaven to me. In fact, I've noticed that when you read the actually wording and rules a lot of the religions sound similar.

Buddha (from what I've read and heard) also outright denied the existence of God in any form, trying to convince people that all they needed was faith in themselves, and nothing else. That's truly playing with fire, and in the end folks get burnt.

I've always found it quite contradictory that God would call to his people and then, I'm told, reject those who might have never heard the message of Jesus. Remember, most of this world is NOT Christian. Wouldn't the message of how we should live our lives (Humility, charity, empathy, sacrifice) be more important than the messenger? These are the beliefs of most of the religions in the world, from the Abrahamic religions, to Hindu, Buddhism, even Wicca.

Well, the Bible actually does address that situation...

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.


In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.” So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith." ~Galatians 3:3-9~

The above verses show something that still happens even today: people hoping their own good deeds with make them right with God, when in fact they're rejecting the One whose blood already paid their debt. Of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the only one to preach grace through faith, without there being some sort of "path" traveled by our own doing.

 

[Zoken]

Well, in all truth, Jesus' message wasn't inclusive at all. He knew and spoke about the divisions that would be caused by people's faith in Him, or lack thereof. Most have this view of Jesus as a serene, quiet, all-around nice guy. Well, if Jesus was so PC for his time, then how on Earth would that have resulted in His crucifixion?! The Romans tried to kill him because he was blatantly and unapologetically going against pre-established ways. He said He was the only way to God, 100%. That's not PC at all; it's bold. Jesus showed his authority several times, like when calming the storm with His disciples in the boat. They were frightened, but Jesus stood and commanded the waves to relent...and because of His faith in the Father, they did.

This is of course only if you BELIEVE the Bible to be a completely accurate account of history. And you already pointed out one problem with translation... hmm...

There is a distinct and sincere difference between spiritual pride, and confidence in your status by faith in Christ. The former is selfish in nature, focused on the mentality that someone has "earned" or "done enough" to be accepted as pure by God. Confidence in Christ is merely recognizing that only Jesus' blood can make us righteous before God; nothing else will cover and wash away our sinful nature.

So saying you put your faith in Christ isn't saying that you've "Done enough" to get into Heaven? Saying "I'm a Christian" isn't saying "I've done enough" to get into Heaven? That isn't even the sort of thing I was talking about, but there's a small hole in your argument.

Christ did say His sacrifice was for both Jews and Gentiles, but He also stated that only through repentance and faith in Him could anyone enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the key for all who wish to enter Heaven, but a lot of people have outright rejected Him.

So it isn't just faith in him, like you said above. There also has to be repentance. Is that the Path?

Buddha (from what I've read and heard) also outright denied the existence of God in any form, trying to convince people that all they needed was faith in themselves, and nothing else. That's truly playing with fire, and in the end folks get burnt.

You do know the Buddha didn't sway people from Christianity right? He drew people from Hinduism.

Well, the Bible actually does address that situation...

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? Have you experienced so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.


In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.” So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith." ~Galatians 3:3-9~

Galatians is a letter written by the apostle Paul, correct? This means that It was written by a human, and as you have pointed out numerous times... humans are flawed and fallible.

The above verses show something that still happens even today: people hoping their own good deeds with make them right with God, when in fact they're rejecting the One whose blood already paid their debt. Of all the religions in the world, Christianity is the only one to preach grace through faith, without there being some sort of "path" traveled by our own doing.

The above verses also did nothing to address the point I made. Does your god damn to Hell people who have never heard the message of Christ or any abrahamic religion?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

This is of course only if you BELIEVE the Bible to be a completely accurate account of history. And you already pointed out one problem with translation... hmm...

This always cracks me up.

The Bible is the Holy, Perfect word of the most high God!
But, it's just,....translated really poorly.

Well which translation is correct?
The, uh, one that sounds most like what I believe.


LOL

Poor God.
His hands are tied. His well-intentioned plans are constantly thwarted by the darn humans.
What could he possibly do about it?

 

[Zoken]

This always cracks me up.

The Bible is the Holy, Perfect word of the most high God!
But, it's just,....translated really poorly.

Well which translation is correct?
The, uh, one that sounds most like what I believe.


LOL

Poor God.
His hands are tied. His well-intentioned plans are constantly thwarted by the darn humans.
What could he possibly do about it?

It's almost like that's why he created you Willy. Don't you feel his love? His love touching you in inappropriate places.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I don't.

 

[Zoken]

Sorry, I'm having a kind of gay day today... I think it has something to do with watching "American History X" last night.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'm happy to say that God has never raped me in the shower or told me to put my teeth on the curb or sniffed my dirty laundry, as far as I know.

 

[Zoken]

Never raped you IN THE SHOWER? Has God ever raped you in other places? Did God rape you in the kitchen?