Arnold Is Back for Terminator 5

[Solidus]

You're making a larger assumption than I am here. I think Cameron completely contradicts T1 but he does it knowing that he is. T1 is during cold war and T2 is post-cold war thinking. "Aren't the Russians our friends now?" "If the Terminator can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too."

And Miles Dyson, "the man most directly responsible" for Skynet, gets his redemption by blowing himself up in a computer factory. It's all in service of the story and themes rather than the labors of time travel structure.

It's good seeing you too, Solidus!

I don't think it's an assumption so we may not agree. T2 was not really post cold war, it was written and directed mainly before the fall of Russia. And they added that one line in to make it contemporary. And I always would make it where T3 which the real T3 did anyways is there is backups for Skynet, he was the man mostly responsible, and made the breakthroughs with the chip, but the military finished it and made it for themselves. Originally Dyson wanted it for automatic pilots, and peace. But to me it would make sense that the military would really be the ones that put Skynet online, because it said they did. T2 was just leading up to what would always happen.

Well no, because that terminator was sent back a whole new Skynet (whose existence was never properly explained).

I think it's a bit late to have a direct sequel to Terminator 2, two decades later.

Well, I guess Tron got away with it.

No it did not create a whole new Skynet, it created the Skynet that always existed. HE created himself in a great twist.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Honestly they would be smarter if they went back to the first terminator's template of small scale sci-fi thriller as opposed to the T-2 blockbuster one.

That's not going to happen though.

 

[dude stannis]

I think the simplest thing to do is make a future war movie that ends in 2029 with Kyle Reese going back in time. Don't acknowledge any previous film. That way it can serve as a prequel to T1 and the future can still be altered in T2, or it can play in a constant loop.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think it's an assumption so we may not agree. T2 was not really post cold war, it was written and directed mainly before the fall of Russia. And they added that one line in to make it contemporary. And I always would make it where T3 which the real T3 did anyways is there is backups for Skynet, he was the man mostly responsible, and made the breakthroughs with the chip, but the military finished it and made it for themselves. Originally Dyson wanted it for automatic pilots, and peace. But to me it would make sense that the military would really be the ones that put Skynet online, because it said they did. T2 was just leading up to what would always happen.



No it did not create a whole new Skynet, it created the Skynet that always existed. HE created himself in a great twist.

What are you talking about? Skynet from Terminator and Terminator 2 was destroyed in Terminator 2. In 3, we see a whole new Skynet, supposedly created on the work of the original (which is a huge plot hole, since we saw all that work destroyed in 2). The nature of Skynet is different too (software in cyberspace).

 

[Solidus]

I think the simplest thing to do is make a future war movie that ends in 2029 with Kyle Reese going back in time. Don't acknowledge any previous film. That way it can serve as a prequel to T1 and the future can still be altered in T2, or it can play in a constant loop.

Agreed. That would work.

What are you talking about? Skynet from Terminator and Terminator 2 was destroyed in Terminator 2. In 3, we see a whole new Skynet, supposedly created on the work of the original (which is a huge plot hole, since we saw all that work destroyed in 2). The nature of Skynet is different too (software in cyberspace).

No it was always known that there was backup details of his work. People don't work in the knowledge based/tech world having just one building store all their info. It was clear that Skynet was not destroyed. Because if so? The Terminator right after Cyberdyne blew up would disappear, and be no more, or be something radically different. As well John would have disappeared. So it shows that would not be the case the T-800 would have vanished and they would have ended up somewhere else. If it really changed the future. It did not.

Work that he did I'm sure would be backed up, most big government contractors know that. And the difference was because of Modern views of technology really. To be more contemporary to the audience.

And Skynet was not built fully yet, Dyson just made breakthroughs, what would have happened and should have happened is the military used the info Dyson found/invented, and from that created the military version of Skynet by SAC NORAD. It works easy that way. Skynet was not destroyed, or delayed. Just one of the creators of Skynet blew up his work. The T-800 clearly said he was the main most responsible, but not the only responsible. That is something I always looked into. Dyson made the breakthroughs to have the type of CPU that Skynet was, but other than that the military just went on and created this and we went to hell in 97.

And yes it sorta happened in T3 but not the date/way it should have. But it's not unrealistic/lazy writing. Any government contractor does not have just a few places of some of the most expensive/superior tech just laying in one place. There were more people responsible for Skynet, and backups would have been standard of the research/work Dyson did.

 

[Thundercrack85]

No, that's called a plot hole. In Terminator 2 we clearly see them destroy all the research that would become Skynet. They even mention backups in the film (maybe because they wanted to make sure no one could make a lazy sequel like Terminator 3). There's no hint of anything surviving. Dyson even dies, for good measure. End of Skynet.

To say there are some magic backups, the guy who invented Skynet never knew about is the laziest of writing. Not to mention that the most critical component (the chip) is missing.

Either way, it's not the same Skynet.

Terminator 3 isn't just a bad film, it tries to ruin Terminator 2 by undoing everything established in the film.

 

[Solidus]

No it's not, you run to the plothole/lazy writing too often in your arguments.

It's not the end of Skynet, Cameron was going to make a T3, but the rights and so forth went wonky, and that goes into a longer story. It's not magic, in the real world big huge things like this have backups.

A. Dyson did not create Skynet, he was not built yet. He made the breakthrough that would allow a CPU to learn. It was going to be used in his eyes for jets. And that's about it.

B. Kyle said in T1 that SAC NORAD "BUILT" Skynet and of course then everything went to hell.


Which points to the work that Dyson did, was only part of it, Skynet was not built yet, the plans/ideas for the learning computer must still be somewhere else other workers were there too. It was not just Dyson alone in a big building. , Because in the real world with huge projects like that people don't have one piece of paper that has the formula. They have backups in case anything happens, any big company has contingency plans.

You just jump to lazy writing for everything this Trek. Ya it's cool you can say that, but if you really look at it, its not a plot hole. It clearly shows that Skynet did not die. A plot hole is when it goes against its own created logic. The T-800 did not change, nothing happened to them. So there is only one conclusion, they did not destroy Skynet. Simple. Easy. Not Lazy. But go ahead and keep saying it but it does not make it true.

EDIT: And Sarah said it's over...but how does she know that? That's why the ending was changed to an ambiguous dark highway, we don't know what was going to approach. He cut the happy ending because that would mean Skynet was destroyed and would have created plotholes.

That and T3 was a bleh film I agree, but some of the ideas (minus the messing up of the dates) were just fine. Some were not. I wish Cameron would have gotten to do it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What part of destroying all the work that led up to Skynet do you not get? Seriously. They explicitly destroy the back ups, the chip, and the lead scientist. There is nothing left.

Contingency plans generally don't account for the lead scientist destroying all his work, the thing they were reverse engineering, the backups, and blowing up the main research facility (and killing himself in the process).

But even if all that wasn't explicitly said and shown, it would still be a different Skynet because the original Skynet came online in the 90's.

You sir, couldn't recognize lazy writing in a Michael Bay film.

 

[Carnotaur3]

Miles Dyson and much of his research going the way of the dodo, even if some of his stuff was backed up, he wasn't even finished with the research. Which means, his absence would cause delays. And if the research delays, so does Judgment Day and Skynet's existence.

 

[Solidus]

What part of destroying all the work that led up to Skynet do you not get? Seriously. They explicitly destroy the back ups, the chip, and the lead scientist. There is nothing left.

Contingency plans generally don't account for the lead scientist destroying all his work, the thing they were reverse engineering, the backups, and blowing up the main research facility (and killing himself in the process).

But even if all that wasn't explicitly said and shown, it would still be a different Skynet because the original Skynet came online in the 90's.

You sir, couldn't recognize lazy writing in a Michael Bay film.

The chip was not Skynet,

Here is the timeline of the ONE Skynet.

-Cyberdyne found the chip/arm.
-They since 1984 worked on understanding it/replicating it.
-Dyson and his team had been working on this for years. He was the director of it, but by no means the only one that understood it. He made the breakthrouhgs with the company and his collegues.
-Dyson destroys what work he worked on. Thinking he had destoryed it all. The chip/arm which was used for the research (but not as prelevant anymore) was destroyed as well.
-The Military picks up the scraps of what was known about the entity of Skynet, I'm sure his team knew quite a bit, I doubt they just sat there and stared at the ceiling. There were hundreds of engineers working with Dyson.
-SAC NORAD creates it. Dyson never created Skynet just got the breakthrough with his team...he did it, but his team was there and probably knew more then....nothing as you assume. And they help the military use it for something else Dyson wanted it for something else. Skynet goes self-aware. Boom world ends.
-Skynet fights the war.
-John defeats him.
-In a last minute attempt he tries to save himself by killing John in the past.
-In doing so it completes the loop, Skynet creates himself. And causes John to be born in the process.

Now I know the part with the scraps of Skynet was never explained, but it was suppose to be in Cameron's T3 and never fully was explained. The dark highway was meant to pretty much wink that more was coming. There was not two Skynet's (especially in T1 and T2) there was only one. T3 at least got half of the idea right, but I admit did it poorly. It is not unrealistic/unbelievable to think that all those hundreds of scientists/engineers working with Dyson had no idea what was going on. I'm sure they knew how to make it. Dyson was most responsible for its discovery...not it's creation.

T3 at least got a part of that right.

And please. Don't call me stupid. I know plot holes, I just think too many on the internet throw it around willy nilly to sound superior to others. There are many movies with big plotholes, T1 and T2 were not one of them.

 

[Solidus]

Miles Dyson and much of his research going the way of the dodo, even if some of his stuff was backed up, he wasn't even finished with the research. Which means, his absence would cause delays. And if the research delays, so does Judgment Day and Skynet's existence.

To me T3 could have done it without the delays. Again Dyson discovered the "learning computer' but was planning for Skynet to be just with airplanes. We know the government has certain networks that controls the nukes of our country, there was that huge scare at SAC NORAD in 1979 which the movie War Games (great film) was slightly based off of.

The military could have in a few years used the learning computer idea created it with the others from Dyson's team pretty quickly with the right backing, and simply upgrading their network with the thinking computer. Too fast too quick is always what the point of our demise was. We had the power and created it too quick without thinking of consequences.

It is how I would have started out T3, so then ya a few years pass. I don't think it needed to be really delayed. But you can do that, I just like the circular loop better.

 

[Carnotaur3]

To me T3 could have done it without the delays. Again Dyson discovered the "learning computer' but was planning for Skynet to be just with airplanes. We know the government has certain networks that controls the nukes of our country, there was that huge scare at SAC NORAD in 1979 which the movie War Games (great film) was slightly based off of.

The military could have in a few years used the learning computer idea created it with the others from Dyson's team pretty quickly with the right backing, and simply upgrading their network with the thinking computer. Too fast too quick is always what the point of our demise was. We had the power and created it too quick without thinking of consequences.

It is how I would have started out T3, so then ya a few years pass. I don't think it needed to be really delayed. But you can do that, I just like the circular loop better.

But still, take into account that this is a company. First, it has to rebuild the whole floor in Research and Development. Not only that, but they might have to relocate elsewhere, lay off workers for a whole year because the whole structure was in shambles and ready to be condemned. I mean, if you can't work and don't have access to things, you aren't going to be doing any work period. Not to mention setbacks with money that they are fronting just to fix everything. And I doubt that they lost just research into the chip. I bet they lost millions of dollars worth of equipment and other projects that were backed by rich white dentists who funded them and now won't see any progress. Then they'll pull funding, etc.

There was a lot of damage done to that ****ing building.

 

[Carnotaur3]

The dark highway was meant to pretty much wink that more was coming.

It's pretty self-evident in the film what the dark highway represents. The camera never comes up to see the end of the road and the dialogue exchange is "The unknown future rolls toward us..."

 

[Solidus]

Hmm, I still think it could be done. To me the military has a lot already set up with computers/network. Just having the engineers come out and help create it at Colorado's facility at SAC NORAD is what I always envisioned.

What I always took (especially with T1 and T2) was that Skynet was made and great at flight, then they quickly said lets plug him into the entire military. Skynet was not really "super intelligent" he was nothing more then something that was suppose to learn strategy for nuclear warfare. Well of course he learned at a geometric rate, they freaked out and could not believe how fast he learned. So of course they tried to pull the plug on him. I always took it also as a theme that we put stuff out before we really know what it can do.

So it would be a slight stretch but I think it could still have worked.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What do you qualify as a plot hole?

I'm not going to argue the point again. All the research that led to Skynet was destroyed in Terminator 2. That was the whole point of the film.

Saying that there were unmentioned scraps of data is an ass pull. Even more so because Sarah even asks him if there's anything else, and he gives a definitive no. Not to mention that there probably wouldn't be any scraps, since Skynet wasn't even close to completion.

If you want to make a sequel to that, fine, but don't pull an ass pull. Especially one that undoes all the stuff they did in the last movie. Come up with something new.

Also, I take issue with Terminator Salvation's time travel logic. Killing Kyle in Salvation would not have ended John's existence. By that logic, John, and the second T-800 would have ceased to exist the moment they chucked the original T-800's chip in the molten steel in Terminator 2.

This franchise has been broken ever since Terminator 2.

 

[Solidus]

What do you qualify as a plot hole?

I'm not going to argue the point again. All the research that led to Skynet was destroyed in Terminator 2. That was the whole point of the film.

Saying that there were unmentioned scraps of data is an ass pull. Even more so because Sarah even asks him if there's anything else, and he gives a definitive no. Not to mention that there probably wouldn't be many scraps, since Skynet wasn't even close to completion.

If you want to make a sequel to that, fine, but don't pull an ass pull. Especially one that undoes all the stuff they did in the last movie. Come up with something new.

Also, I take issue with Terminator Salvation's time travel logic. Killing Kyle in Salvation would not have ended John's existence. By that logic, John, and the second T-800 would have ceased to exist the moment they chucked the original T-800's chip in the molten steel in Terminator 2.

This franchise has been broken ever since Terminator 2.

A plot hole is where it contradicts itself within it's own defined logic. The ending of T2 showed that Skynet was not destroyed. We will go in circles. There were not two Skynet's only one. And none of it would be an "ass pull".


Again Dyson came up with the idea of a learning computer. That is all. But that was the key thing to Skynet's creation. The military is what built them. So with all those engineers and hundreds of people that we clearly saw working at Cyberdyne and none of them knew his work is hard to belive. They all worked with him. Dyson was responsible for the idea, which of course spread with his colleagues and I'm sure the rest of the staff. It was later even with all that destroyed that others continued his idea and made it for what it was always fated to be. Skynet. Dyson created the idea/breakthrough, others that learned from that (as happens with real companies) were the ones that took his idea farther. He was creating an AI that would never become Skynet, it was his idea mixed with what the military wanted was what created Skynet.

It's not an ass pull idea. Maybe to you it is far fetched. But to me it's pretty logical there would be others working. So stop being condescending and throwing personal insults at me.

To think all those hundreds of people working at Cyberdyne with Dyson, none of them knew what he was doing. You could say that, but you could also say no these people learned his stuff. Dyson was delusional and afraid as hell, he destroyed his working hoping this would stop it. But it really does not.

 

[Terminator]

I like keeping my Terminator thoughts to myself when it comes to the timeline. Helps me avoid 80 pages or arguments and theories.

 

[Thundercrack85]

How can one Skynet be created seven years apart by different people?

You're just not making any sense.

You say Dyson made it, yeah he did, and then he destroyed all his work (and everyone else's in the building) that led to it, the thing behind it, and himself.

The end.

And I'm not throwing personal insults at you. You say it's not lazy writing, when it clearly is.

Anyway, I'm done. I've made my point.

 

[PSYLENTGuardian]

Beyond data retrieval and all of the stuff Cyberdyne and the military need to rebuild Dyson's Skynet, the protector T800 Model 101 still left its arm crushed in the giant gear after fighting the T1000.

 

[Carnotaur3]

To think all those hundreds of people working at Cyberdyne with Dyson, none of them knew what he was doing. You could say that, but you could also say no these people learned his stuff. Dyson was delusional and afraid as hell, he destroyed his working hoping this would stop it. But it really does not.

Dyson was the man most directly responsible, which means he was making break-throughs other people weren't making. Now, unless someone was keeping tabs on his personal home computer, I doubt all of what he was doing was coming to light every day he was working. I'm certain he provided updates, but what about the **** he was doing that day right before he went to Raging Waters with his children and right after up until the moment Sarah decided to pull the trigger?

Not to mention, why we have computers to collate information isn't just so that we can have a record... but because how easily we forget information.

 

[Solidus]

How can one Skynet be created seven years apart by different people?

You're just not making any sense.

You say Dyson made it, yeah he did, and then he destroyed all his work (and everyone else's in the building) that led to it, the thing behind it, and himself.

The end.

And I'm not throwing personal insults at you. You say it's not lazy writing, when it clearly is.

Anyway, I'm done. I've made my point.

No Dyson did not make it. He came up with the idea, a formula if you will, nothing actually that resembled it. Now I'm not defending T3's larger time gap. T2 took place in 1995, when Judgement day was August of 1997. I think T3 should have taken place.

Skynet was being eyed by the military, and to think that Dyson's people after he died did not go well let's finish his idea and his "formula/schematics" and then with the military a few years later they created Skynet. Dyson did not create Skynet. Just as Einstein did not invent the nuke, he came up with the formula/experiments that it could be done, and others took his work and turned it into something he did not want/a terrible weapon. Einstein and other scientist were most responsible for coming up with the idea, but it was the military and others that said take those plans and let's use this for a weapon. When Einstein originally wanted it for "power supply"

Saying people don't make sense,/calling my ideas "ass pulls, blatantly saying I could not see a plot hole in a Bay film is calling me "stupid" I think you need to learn etiquette better, I asked you to stop, so stop acting like you're not doing anything. Ya those personal insults are not really smiled upon on the boards especially when I asked you to stop.

Yes I disagree with lots of people on these boards very deeply, and we can get heated like no others. But I will not call them stupid/idiots. Maybe some of us are not on the same page of what we are trying to say, but to say what you're saying just did not seem very polite.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I doubt you could get much out of a severed, mangled arm. If it was even recognizable as an arm.

No one ever brings up the original Terminator's legs.

 

[Solidus]

Dyson was the man most directly responsible, which means he was making break-throughs other people weren't making. Now, unless someone was keeping tabs on his personal home computer, I doubt all of what he was doing was coming to light every day he was working. I'm certain he provided updates, but what about the **** he was doing that day right before he went to Raging Waters with his children and right after up until the moment Sarah decided to pull the trigger?

Not to mention, why we have computers to collate information isn't just so that we can have a record... but because how easily we forget information.

Agreed. Dyson was working for a major company, with tons and tons of people. He came up with the ideas, not Skynet himself. It was the military and others that did later on. It was said in T1 that it was made by SAC NORAD. Not Miles Dyson. Though later we learn from the T-800 that Dyson was most responsible, the T-800 of course would have those kind of files. But he did not create Skynet.

 

[Solidus]

I doubt you could get much out of a severed, mangled arm. If it was even recognizable as an arm.

No one ever brings up the original Terminator's legs.

When did I call you an idiot?

There was the chip (The T-800's CPU from T1) which was the most important part. Where all the ideas came from.

 

[Thundercrack85]

No Dyson did not make it. He came up with the idea, a formula if you will, nothing actually that resembled it. Now I'm not defending T3's larger time gap. T2 took place in 1995, when Judgement day was August of 1997. I think T3 should have taken place.

Skynet was being eyed by the military, and to think that Dyson's people after he died did not go well let's finish his idea and his "formula/schematics" and then with the military a few years later they created Skynet. Dyson did not create Skynet. Just as Einstein did not invent the nuke, he came up with the formula/experiments that it could be done, and others took his work and turned it into something he did not want/a terrible weapon. Einstein and other scientist were most responsible for coming up with the idea, but it was the military and others that said take those plans and let's use this for a weapon. When Einstein originally wanted it for "power supply"

Saying people don't make sense,/calling my ideas "ass pulls, blatantly saying I could not see a plot hole in a Bay film is calling me "stupid" I think you need to learn etiquette better, I asked you to stop, so stop acting like you're not doing anything. Ya those personal insults are not really smiled upon on the boards especially when I asked you to stop.

Yes I disagree with lots of people on these boards very deeply, and we can get heated like no others. But I will not call them stupid/idiots. Maybe some of us are not on the same page of what we are trying to say, but to say what you're saying just did not seem very polite.

I think you need to lighten up, man. And I was referring to Terminator 3, not you personally with ass pulls. Unless you had a hand in writing it.

Anyway, if it's going to make you all upset, forget about it.