Comics ASM 581 the uninspired super lame explanation why Harry Osborn is alive

[Spider-Gnome]

See here's the problem, that's not true. Readers today give no knew characters a chance. Just look at the reaction to Charlie and Lilly, after one issue people were complaining that they would never be Gwen and MJ. After one issue.

No! The problem is they are telling long time readers that Carlie and Lily are long time friends of Pete & Harry out of nowhere! We are just thrust with new characters and were never introduced.

You know who I found may have potential? Norah, introduced during the Hammerhead arc. You know why? Besides the fact that I think she has an interesting personality (that doesn't seem like MJ or Gwen), but Pete AND the readers are actually INTRODUCED to a new character! And although I hate the whole OMD/BND and hate the marriage dissolved and want to see Pete & MJ together again, I could actually see some interesting stories of Pete and Norah getting together. (Sorry to my fellow marriage supporters!)

 

[Themanofbat]

No! The problem is they are telling long time readers that Carlie and Lily are long time friends of Pete & Harry out of nowhere! We are just thrust with new characters and were never introduced.

You know who I found may have potential? Norah, introduced during the Hammerhead arc. You know why? Besides the fact that I think she has an interesting personality (that doesn't seem like MJ or Gwen), but Pete AND the readers are actually INTRODUCED to a new character! And although I hate the whole OMD/BND and hate the marriage dissolved and want to see Pete & MJ together again, I could actually see some interesting stories of Pete and Norah getting together. (Sorry to my fellow marriage supporters!)

I think they met during the 100 day period between OMD & BND... and they were probably introduced to Pete via Harry...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I think they met during the 100 day period between OMD & BND... and they were probably introduced to Pete via Harry...

I kinda figured that could be the case, but they made it seem more like they really knew each other longer. I still can't understand why they had to dump most of the existing supporting cast for a new one, particularly when they do seem very much like MJ & Gwen stand-ins.

Hey, but I threw you a bone TMOTB, in the new direction, and thought Pete getting together with Norah might be interesting.

In any event, I feel very detached to these, as well a Vin, new characters and wish we had more Betty, Flash, JJJ, Robbie, Randie, Black Cat, Liz, and HIS WIFE MJ.

 

[imdaly]

I still can't understand why they had to dump most of the existing supporting cast for a new one, particularly when they do seem very much like MJ & Gwen.

What supporting cast did Peter have in the 6 or 7 years before OMD??

MJ, Aunt May...and the Avengers. That's really it.

In addition to giving Peter a supporting cast again, yes we got new ones, but we've also seen people like Harry, Liz, Normie, Jameson, Robertson, Ulrich, Flash, etc.

 

[carnageehw]

No! The problem is they are telling long time readers that Carlie and Lily are long time friends of Pete & Harry out of nowhere! We are just thrust with new characters and were never introduced.

This was my biggest problem. It feels like starting to watch a TV show halfway through a season. The characters in the book know each other well, but you the reader, do not. This is not a good way of telling a story.

If you don't introduce a character, there is no natural build up and interest. If the readers are introduced to a character the same time as the main people in the book it's a more natural, interesting read.

 

[carnageehw]

What supporting cast did Peter have in the 6 or 7 years before OMD??

MJ, Aunt May...and the Avengers. That's really it.

In addition to giving Peter a supporting cast again, yes we got new ones, but we've also seen people like Harry, Liz, Normie, Jameson, Robertson, Ulrich, Flash, etc.

The fact that Pete now has a supporting cast is kind of a separate issue from this whole BND stuff.
You can have any supporting cast (save for dating situations) you want with a married or unmarried Pete.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

What supporting cast did Peter have in the 6 or 7 years before OMD??

MJ, Aunt May...and the Avengers. That's really it.

In addition to giving Peter a supporting cast again, yes we got new ones, but we've also seen people like Harry, Liz, Normie, Jameson, Robertson, Ulrich, Flash, etc.

One of the things BND was going to do was bring back Pete's supporting cast. A lot of us thought "great!" We missed them! But what they do? Bring back a DEAD member of the supporting cast and all new supporting cast. JJJ is basically replaced by DB. And we're suppose to care about Lily's father running for mayor??? Flash gets one issue which could be out of continuity the way it was written as a stand alone with nothing that was going on ASM related. He goes (back?) to Iraq out of the blue and loses his legs?

 

[Themanofbat]

One of the things BND was going to do was bring back Pete's supporting cast. A lot of us thought "great!" We missed them! But what they do? Bring back a DEAD member of the supporting cast and all new supporting cast. JJJ is basically replaced by DB. And we're suppose to care about Lily's father running for mayor??? Flash gets one issue which could be out of continuity the way it was written as a stand alone with nothing that was going on ASM related. He goes (back?) to Iraq out of the blue and loses his legs?

I do think Norah could prove to be interesting... especially if Pete continues to work for Front Line.... which I could see JJJ helping/taking over, considering that he paid to get them going...

And we've recently seen Harry along with Liz & Normie, and Betty, while not necessarily in the lime light, has been making minor appearances in the book since the begining of the year, moreso than we've seen her in the last decade of Spidey books.

And JJJ has had a minor sub-plot surrounding him since his heart attack, ranging from his divorce with Marla, that weird shock gun he blasted at the Bookie, and his Father, whom I think we'll see again relatively soon.

 

[farmernudie]

I am tired of hearing people say there was no supporting cast before...as if that is some way to make the reboot sound postitive.

They could have had ANY supportive cast they wanted before....in any issue at any time.

OMD/BND is in no way a solution to that.

"Ah, we'll reboot it and mandate a supporting cast".....brilliant stuff.

This is a bunch of bologna covered with whip cream. Joe could have mandated ANYTHING with the marriage and without a reboot. Period.

IF anything, the supporting cast has shrunk, because of all the people who don't know spidey and their history as friends anymore.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Yeah but Charlie is a cop's daughter, and a science major, just like Gwen. Pretty obvious.

And? Neither of those facts tell you anything about her. Who to say her father was anything like Stacey, and science is a broad subject.

It wasn't a Goblin formula. Like I said, READ THE STORY-

Osborn doesn't even know what Stromm's formulas are for. He's only looking them over to see if there's anything profitable, after Stromm is sent to prison. Osborn mixes the chemicals and doesn't understand what's happening when they begin to boil over - then before he can move the formula explodes in his face.

Doctors spend weeks trying to save him saying that the damage is DEEP IN HIS BRAIN. Osborn narrates: "The fools! They thought my brain had been damaged! They didn't suspect that the ACCIDENT (Not treatment) had made me more brilliant than I had ever been!"

THAT IS THE GOBLIN FORMULA. What is so hard to understand? Just because it was an accident, which it wasn't anyway as this shows , doesn't mean it's not the goblin formula.

Funny that Norman would neglect to mention the accident not giving him super strength, since that's supposed to be the purpose of the Goblin formula. And again- up through the period of his death in ASM #122- the Goblin never displays super strength. Whenever they get to close quarters Spidey always easily over-powered him. Not enough? Well, Stan Lee confirmed that the Goblin didn't have super strength on the letters page of Spidey #104. He received mail questioning how the Goblin could give Spidey a fight with no powers- To which Stan replied that Spidey's inherent klutziness and the fact that other non-super guys like Captain America have been able to fight super-powered guys ad infinitum.

Wow Stan said it? I guess Peter married Mary Jane Wiltkins, and is called Peter Porker. All things Stan has wrote. But if we go to the origing again we see that Osborn says he is stronger than anybody.

Really? Then explain the resurrection of Bucky Barnes. Didn't that alter Captain America's outlook? And, how did Gwen's death alter Spidey's outlook? What did he do differently after her death? And George Stacy? How did that alter anything? I'd think that Harry's death would easily affect Peter as much as Capt. Stacy's.

I don't read CA so I can't speak about that.

Gwens death altered comic books. It was when they lost their innocence and when the dark era began. It made the GG Peter's greatest enemy, led into the creation of the Jackal and the clone saga. Capt. Stacey's death was done to create conflict in the Gwen/Peter relationship.

Harry's changed nothing.

 

[Themanofbat]

I am tired of hearing people say there was no supporting cast before...as if that is some way to make the reboot sound postitive.

But the supporting cast was gone during the JMS era... we saw JJJ talk to Aunt May when she cancels her subscription and that's about it? Where was Robbie Robertson during the JMS era? Howza'bout Flash? Betty Brant?

Sure, they made a few appearances in PAD's FSM, but I see that as PAD understanding how to write Spider-Man... we need to see those people on a somewhat regular basis... not every issue, maybe even twice a year, but not one time in 7 years... utterly ridiculous.

Show me a JMS issue where someone other than Aunt May & Mary Jane play an even semi-significant role in thestory, and I'll shut up about "supporting cast".

 

[farmernudie]

Joe was EIC during JMS's run.

So.......he could've said at any time, if he cared...."put in more supporting cast"...WITHOUT having to hit a reboot button altering history.

MY point is, supporting cast could've been highlited as much or as little Joe wanted it, at any time, with or without a reboot.

 

[kguillou]

Joe Q could've and SHOULD've said a lot of things said a lot of things. He should've told JMS to include more supporting cast, he should've told JMS to keep pete and Mj separated if they wanted that so bad, he should've told Mark Millar NOT to unmask spiderman since it was obviously going to lead to problems, he shouldn't have greenlit Sins Past etc... Quesada could've avoided all this a long time ago, and he claims he's thinking ahead.

 

[Themanofbat]

JMS was given carte blanche initially to write what he wanted, and JMS purposely avoided the old supporting class.. he wanted to focus on Peter.

JQ had nothing to do with his not wanting to write the old cast.

 

[farmernudie]

He also said eveything he DID do was to get it to the point where they are now...for THAT reason.

So...it infuriates me....let's just Let ANYTHING go....and then REBOOT IT ALL!

It is like they wrote it into a corner.....left out supporting cast to an extent....and then highlited and advertised their reboot like it fixes it all..."all" the things Joe "planned"...are NOW "fixed"....so hid plan was to neglect it and then throw it back in and say....see, it is fixed now by my reboot!....this whole thing (BND/OMD) and reasoning is SO cheesy and stupid, to say the least.

THESE are all the stories they couldn't tell before?? Couldn't have supporting cast before??? WHY NOT??????

 

[Themanofbat]

MARVEL DID NOT WANT A SINGLE SPIDER-MAN!!!!

SO IT'S IRRELEVANT IF THESE STORIES COULD HAVE BEEN TOLD WITH A MARRIED SPIDER-MAN... MARVEL WANTED HIM TO BE SINGLE, AND THEY OWN SPIDER-MAN... NOT THE FANS.

I'm sorry you disapprove, but that's the way life is sometimes...

 

[kguillou]

You know, i was thinking, do you guys think that if OMD didnt suck so much they would still be doing the 3x a month thing? Like do you think they knew OMD was gona blow this bad and they used the 3x month thing was a sort of compromise for it? IF OMD had been a great story and a huge success and everybody liked it, would there still be a thrice monthly?

 

[Venom 1988]

IF OMD had been a great story and a huge success and everybody liked it, would there still be a thrice monthly?

yes

 

[Themanofbat]

IF OMD had been a great story and a huge success and everybody liked it, would there still be a thrice monthly?

Yes.

 

[imdaly]

IF OMD had been a great story and a huge success and everybody liked it, would there still be a thrice monthly?

Yes.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

IF OMD had been a great story and a huge success and everybody liked it, would there still be a thrice monthly?

Oooooooh yeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!! [/Kool-Aid Man]

 

[Dragon]

And? Neither of those facts tell you anything about her. Who to say her father was anything like Stacey, and science is a broad subject.

Someone's family and field of endeavor don't tell you anything about them? So IU guess it wouldn't matter if Peter were a football player raised by his mom and dad? Her father being like Stacy would be a BLATANT rip-off. The fact that she's a cop's daughter and a scinence major are conceptual rip-offs. Okay and how about how clearly "Gwen-like" Carlie is in temperment as opposed to the party girl?

THAT IS THE GOBLIN FORMULA. What is so hard to understand? Just because it was an accident, which it wasn't anyway as this shows

So you're saying that Norman meant for the chemical to blow-up in his face, even though the page you posted speaks otherwise. And it isn't an accident? Even though Norman says it is????.

It ISN'T the Goblin formula described starting with ASM #245 because it does nothing the Goblin formula is supposed to do.

Wow Stan said it? I guess Peter married Mary Jane Wiltkins, and is called Peter Porker. All things Stan has wrote. But if we go to the origing again we see that Osborn says he is stronger than anybody.

So you equate typos to story and character development.

I don't read CA so I can't speak about that.

So your theory on permanent death only applies to Spider-Man comics then?

Gwens death altered comic books. It was when they lost their innocence and when the dark era began. It made the GG Peter's greatest enemy, led into the creation of the Jackal and the clone saga.

Funny that the "dark era" didn't seem to touch Spider-Man, which you above mention is the point. Spidey changed nothing about his methods, was no more angry than before, and wasn't even adverse to carrying on a relationship despite the fact that Gwen had been killed because of his secret ID being known, and when Peter started dating MJ several villains knew his identity (The Jackal, Harry and the as yet unknown Dr. Hamilton).

Capt. Stacey's death was done to create conflict in the Gwen/Peter relationship.

Harry's changed nothing.

But then, by your logic, Norman Osborn's death should have ALSO remained permanent. His death made Spider-Man a wanted murderer. It nearly got MJ killed on numerous occasions. It destroyed Peter's best friend's life and family and put Peter through hell for decades due to the ramifications. And Norman's death led to the birth of Hobgolbin, a far more important character to Spidey's mythos than the Jackal.

And Gwen's death shouldn't be permanent, since The Jackal and Clone saga have been jettisoned from continuity, and as for it upping Norman's spot on Spidey's list of rogues, I guess Spidey has gotten over it, since he's done nothing to bring Norman to justice for Gwen's death, since his return.

 

[Venom 1988]

Speaking of Carlie Cooper, from the stories I've read of hers...she seems like a person who would practice in necrophilia....

>_>

<_<

What!? She does, shes a creepy forensics girl.

 

[imdaly]

Speaking of Carlie Cooper, from the stories I've read of hers...she seems like a person who would practice in necrophilia....

>_>

<_<

What!? She does, shes a creepy forensics girl.

I would kill myself for a hot necrophiliac like her.


But yeah, her obsession with violent deaths and such is a big part of why I suspect her the most as Menace.

 

[Dragon]

I would kill myself for a hot necrophiliac like her.

There are easier ways to get laid and you'd still be able to enjoy it..

But yeah, her obsession with violent deaths and such is a big part of why I suspect her the most as Menace.

Not that I really care, but an investigator being obsessed with crime and how to solve them equating to being a villain would be far too simplistic an approach. If she works with dead bodies, she can't be squeamish about it and be very good at it. But then, we are talking about Marvel.