Astral Projection - Any Scientific Proof?

[Mike_D202]

I remember reading an article on how one of Dan Akyroyd's (probably spelled that wrong) friends stopped by his house and could have sworn he saw him walking around the living room but he was in fact shooting a movie across the U.S. It was a special on how "spirits" and people's energy signature's get left behind an area that they are around all the time and how they were connected. I believe science will prove everything paranormal one day.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

If you're discussing science and your end goal is to produce a testable theory, then you have to rely on far more than personal experience. The experience has to be able to be repeated for experimentation and the results must be able to be tested, repeated and recorded across of wide spectrum of people following your research. Otherwise, you have a hypothesis on the details of how or why for a particular experience, but nothing at all to support a theory.

Scientific theories usually start out with the observation of data; a collection of facts that when seen as a whole may point to some larger process. You form a hypothesis based on the data, and then test the hypothesis through experimentation. Once the data and your conclusion regarding it has been rigorously tested and researched and found to be sound and consistent with the evidence, can it be considered as theory. The data cannot be classified as "personal experience" in a sense that only one individual can observe the data at any given time. It has to be readily observable and able to be studied and tested. Otherwise, it's not science.

Yeah, this guy, what he said.

 

[Spider-Who?]

If you're discussing science and your end goal is to produce a testable theory, then you have to rely on far more than personal experience. The experience has to be able to be repeated for experimentation and the results must be able to be tested, repeated and recorded across of wide spectrum of people following your research. Otherwise, you have a hypothesis on the details of how or why for a particular experience, but nothing at all to support a theory.

Scientific theories usually start out with the observation of data; a collection of facts that when seen as a whole may point to some larger process. You form a hypothesis based on the data, and then test the hypothesis through experimentation. Once the data and your conclusion regarding it has been rigorously tested and researched and found to be sound and consistent with the evidence, can it be considered as theory. The data cannot be classified as "personal experience" in a sense that only one individual can observe the data at any given time. It has to be readily observable and able to be studied and tested. Otherwise, it's not science.

No ****. Re-read my post. You and Optimus have a really hard time at actually reading other's posts before going off on useless, tangents.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Here's a cool interview with physicist, Dr. Fred Wolf on this topic.

http://www.fredalanwolf.com/myarticles/Soul and death Q&A.pdf

Some quotes:

To further explore the possible nature of the soul in scientific terms, we can look into the heart of quantum physics.

I believe that the findings of quantum physics increasingly support Plato. There is evidence that suggests the existence of a non-material, non-physical universe that has a reality even though it may not as yet be clearly perceptible to our senses and scientific instrumentation. When we consider out-of-body experiences, shamanic journeys and lucid dream states, though they cannot be replicated in the true scientific sense, they also point to the existence of non-material dimensions of reality.

From a scientific standpoint, it is difficult to say exactly what is going on. And the reason why we don’t know is because we have no idea where the viewer is that sees this Light [sic]at the end of a tunnel[/sic]. As an example, right now, you have some sense of being present in your body looking out at the world. But according to what we know from physics, this is an illusion of perception: There is no place inside your body where “you” actually exist. You don’t have a particular volume of space or spot that is “you.” It is an illusion to think that everything outside that volume of space is “not you”--what you commonly say is “outside of you.” The best description we can give for this sense of presence is that you “are everywhere.”

The main reason that you have more awareness of being in a body is simply because the sensory apparatus of the body commands a great deal of your attention and that much of your attention is linked to your physical senses. We have the illusion that our human bodies are solid, but they are over 99.99% empty space. If an atom is blown up to the size of an entire football stadium, the dense part of the atom would be comparable to the size of a single grain of rice placed on the 50 yard line. Now why is that important? Because in an atom, the nucleus accounts for 99.99% of all of the matter or mass. Atoms are mostly made of space. So although we experience ourselves as being these solid human bodies, it’s more like “who we are” is an awareness or consciousness that lives in space.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

No ****. Re-read my post. You and Optimus have a really hard time at actually reading other's posts before going off on useless, tangents.

That entire post though is pretty pertinent to the thread topic considering that anyone's particular experience with OBE's is naturally going to be a very personal experience that cannot be repeated by another individual. They can study reactions in the brain while you're having an OBE, and assess how similar/dissimilar it is to others, but when you say stuff like "how would my Grandfather know...blah blah blah" you're really missing the point of what we're saying. Life is certainly filled with some very freaky coincidences, but it is unscientific to assume there is anything more to these coincidences unless you have some evidence pointing to something metaphysical. Until these is evidence for something science takes the default position that it need not be addressed by science. Nor does science concern itself with debunking things which lack evidence, that would be equally unscientific.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Here's a cool interview with physicist, Dr. Fred Wolf on this topic.

http://www.fredalanwolf.com/myarticles/Soul%20and%20death%20Q&A.pdf

Some quotes:

First of all, none of those quotes are from a scientific, peer-reviewed studies (doesn't even contain a bibliography). Second, Quantum Physics is not "[insert here] for when we need a magical explanation", it's the study of particles as they behave at the Quantum Level. It is a dimension of reality so small that if we try to observe it we fundamentally change it, so it is highly unpredictable. It isn't the mystical, magical realm of Dr. Strange, even though the paper you're citing is marking some interesting parrallels it has with philosophy. There is always reactions going on at the Quantum level, when you're having OBEs and when you're not, if you're simply point out that Quantum Mechanics play a role in OBEs that's a fairly uncontroversial statement -- they play a role in everything.

 

[Bill]

No ****. Re-read my post. You and Optimus have a really hard time at actually reading other's posts before going off on useless, tangents.

No need to get irate or insulting. Allow me to reinterate: personal experience is good for anecdotal evidence and little else when forming a scientific theory. Facts and data and how they relate provide the inspiration for experimentation, not anecdotes.

I read your post. You're not understanding the response.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Ok, i had a quick look at some of that Kilroy episode that dealt with some of this kind of thing. There was a Doctor on the show who said that there were so many patients, of his and his collegues, reporting out of body experiences(during times when they were clinically dead, who described in great detail what the Doctor did to revive them), that a group of the Doctors formed a research group on the phenomena. They found that 10% of the patients, that they dealt with in these types of situations, reported out of body experiences.

edit: now, that is not scientific study under lab conditions, it's impossible to do that with the phenomena. But still, it is a group of medical professionals verifying witness reports of their own medical practices, that would have been impossible for the patient to witness, as they were clinically dead at the time of the event.

 

[Spider-Who?]

No need to get irate or insulting. Allow me to reinterate: personal experience is good for anecdotal evidence and little else when forming a scientific theory. Facts and data and how they relate provide the inspiration for experimentation, not anecdotes.

I read your post. You're not understanding the response.

Never had I said personal experience equals scientific evidence, so I don't see why you even have to bring it up. I am fully aware of the scientific method, and what counts as evidence and what does not. If you can't get that, I don't know how either of you breathe - the fact that you guys are still going on about how "personal experience is not evidence" is proof that YOU are not understanding; considering this entire time, I have been shouting from the roof tops that I am saying nothing of the sort.

Facts and data and how they relate provide the inspiration for experimentation, not anecdotes.

How do you come about facts and data? What causes you to study and learn to receive those facts and data? What caused Newton to jump into the realm of physics? Did random facts and data just suddenly pop into his head? No, the proverbial apple fell. He witnessed gravity at work, which caused him to question how and why things fall/move; which then in turn caused him to study/experiment and collect data and facts. Its common sense 101.

******ed example, but **** it: Person A say they saw Bigfoot. That experience is what causes Person B to go and look for themselves. Sure, finding scientific evidence will keep them looking for more evidence, but ultimately it is hearing of that original personal experience - and the desire to experience it themselves is what drives them.

The fact that you're even arguing against something as basic as "human experience can lead to the desire for knowledge and understanding" is astounding. This is an entirely useless argument, and I'm not wasting anymore time on it.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

There's actually a real good reason why your bigfoot example is, as you say, a "******ed example".

 

[Bill]

Never had I said personal experience equals scientific evidence, so I don't see why you even have to bring it up. I am fully aware of the scientific method, and what counts as evidence and what does not. If you can't get that, I don't know how either of you breathe - the fact that you guys are still going on about how "personal experience is not evidence" is proof that YOU are not understanding; considering this entire time, I have been shouting from the roof tops that I am saying nothing of the sort.

And I'm not trying to tell you that is what you are saying. I'm trying to explain, unsuccessfully it seems, that personal experience(and we're discussing personal experiences such as astral projection) doesn't lead to scientific theories. You are putting the cart before the horse. You can question the how and why of astral projection until you are blue in the face and make up an entire host of fun and interesting hypotheses regarding it. But until it can be established as fact, or at least that one cannot hold proverbial consent, then you have no basis for theory. Theories explain facts. You haven't established one yet. You have a host of stories that you have questions about, and you appear to be attempting to answer questions before you've established that the subject of the question is consistently occurring and able to be studied and an acceptable answer based on evidence found.

How do you come about facts and data? What causes you to study and learn to receive those facts and data? What caused Newton to jump into the realm of physics? Did random facts and data just suddenly pop into his head? No, the proverbial apple fell. He witnessed gravity at work, which caused him to question how and why things fall/move; which then in turn caused him to study/experiment and collect data and facts. Its common sense 101.

******ed example, but **** it: Person A say they saw Bigfoot. That experience is what causes Person B to go and look for themselves. Sure, finding scientific evidence will keep them looking for more evidence, but ultimately it is hearing of that original personal experience - and the desire to experience it themselves is what drives them.

The fact that you're even arguing against something as basic as "human experience can lead to the desire for knowledge and understanding" is astounding. This is an entirely useless argument, and I'm not wasting anymore time on it.

I'd be happy if you didn't straw man my argument. You've been extremely insulting, all the while putting words in my mouth. There is a large difference between observing a tangible, repeatable event and using a "personal experience" like astral projection to base research and lead to a theory. An apple can fall on anyone's head. It has happened many times to many people before Newton. Apples can fall randomly and be observed to fall. It isn't "personal" in the same sense as astral projection. Newton took a tangible, repeatable event and asked why and how.

Bigfoot is closer to the realm. Of course, there are no scientific theories regarding Bigfoot. Why? Because he would have to be found, or at least enough data and facts collected about his existence to study. There are none, hence, no theories.

I did not, at any point, argue that "personal experience" doesn't lead to inspiration to question. Just no theories. I thought I made it perfectly clear what I meant by "personal experience" and how it relates to theories. If I haven't, then it looks to be impossible as my argument has been twisted beyond recognition.

 

[rodhulk]

No ****. Re-read my post. You and Optimus have a really hard time at actually reading other's posts before going off on useless, tangents.

Yeah, I had the same thing with this guy in a religion thread. It's all about the other person being the bad guy as far as he's concerned.

Anyhow, from a religious perspective, it's really tough to say if it can happen but unless you're taken in the spirit by God or an angel, we are never told in the bible to search for things by this method. Our reality is here in the real world unless God or an angel brings us onto the spirit world.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[wwfjdraw]

Here's my problem. And I hate to by a whinny baby about my problems to complete strangers especially when it is about something that is so personal, but I do not know where else to turn to, and was really hoping someone, ANYONE could please shed some light and give me the answers that I seek.

A atheist friend of mine has basically proven to me (without even trying hard at all) that there is no afterlife, that once we die, that is it.

I of course after months of research and stress can not live with the thought of never existing after I die in any conscious way.

I found out about, a challenge made by someone who would give over a million dollars to anyone who could please just prove once and for all in a controlled setting that this OBE or AP belief is real to the point where at least ONE person can claim the money. So far to this day, nothing. NO proof, and no claims.

I heard all the boo hoo excuses of how it is bad karma money, or how money is not important, and blah blah blah.

Then damn it do for free and give the money away to charity.

I do not understand what to believe anymore. Can someone please use reason and logic to help me. Because as far as I am concerned, there is no point of living, I am very depressed with this realization, and I know it is not anyone job to make me feel better. But I can not understand how if there are so many people who make the claims that they can make, but yet no one wants the money? Or at least to prove it is real?

Please someone help me with this. Thank you.
Signed,
Sincerely MR.depressed, and afraid of the infinite end.

 

[DarkSentinel]

I'm still working on it I've begun meditating, both alone and using different crystals (quartz points, amethyst, moonstone and moss agate to name a few) and I've begun to feel a sort of vibrational flow and ebb around the center of my forehead. Spoke to someone at my local New Age shop who confirmed that it was my Third Eye beginning to open. Even now as I type I can feel that energy. It's really weird.

One thing he told me though was not to force anything or try to force myself to "see" anything, you'll only drive yourself crazy.

 

[KevanG]

Just reading the first page makes me miss the Bumwhowalks.

 

[Teelie]

I only needed to read the first post to see why. What got him banned?

 

[KevanG]

Hijinks and Shenanigans.

No idea actually.

 

[The End]

There is no reason at all to think the mind can exist outside or without the physical brain. Lucid dreams, shaman journeys, and so called out-of-body experiences are not evidence of the immaterial.

We have a pretty good idea of what produces these phenomena and its really all to do with your brain. When someone takes acid, their soul isn't going on some shaman-esque journey - all that's happening is that their brain's chemicals have been altered, and their perceptions of reality have been altered, and they are having hallucinations.

It's important to practice skepticism. It's important to consider what are the most likely possibilities, and which hypotheses for a phenomenon require more assumptions. We KNOW that altering the brain's chemicals will produce hallucinations. We KNOW that people have hallucinations just before they fall asleep. Dreams can at least in some way be measured by MRI scans. We know that when the brain is physically damaged, memory can be effected, people can even develop alternate personalities from damage to the brain. It is physical. To say that if someone claims that they saw their own body from outside, that this is a literal experience of an immaterial astral projection, is a MASSIVE leap away from what we already know.

For decades now, the James Randi Foundation has been testing paranormal claims and they have been prepared to give 1 million dollars to anyone that can pass their tests and demonstrate the paranormal, and no one's ever collected.

Here's James Randi talking about his own out of body experience.

[YT]1NwKkbd2e-c[/YT]

 

[The End]

Here's my problem. And I hate to by a whinny baby about my problems to complete strangers especially when it is about something that is so personal, but I do not know where else to turn to, and was really hoping someone, ANYONE could please shed some light and give me the answers that I seek.

A atheist friend of mine has basically proven to me (without even trying hard at all) that there is no afterlife, that once we die, that is it.

I of course after months of research and stress can not live with the thought of never existing after I die in any conscious way.

I found out about, a challenge made by someone who would give over a million dollars to anyone who could please just prove once and for all in a controlled setting that this OBE or AP belief is real to the point where at least ONE person can claim the money. So far to this day, nothing. NO proof, and no claims.

I heard all the boo hoo excuses of how it is bad karma money, or how money is not important, and blah blah blah.

Then damn it do for free and give the money away to charity.

I do not understand what to believe anymore. Can someone please use reason and logic to help me. Because as far as I am concerned, there is no point of living, I am very depressed with this realization, and I know it is not anyone job to make me feel better. But I can not understand how if there are so many people who make the claims that they can make, but yet no one wants the money? Or at least to prove it is real?

Please someone help me with this. Thank you.
Signed,
Sincerely MR.depressed, and afraid of the infinite end.

Do you want the blue pill, or the red pill? Are you satisfied with comfortable delusions, or are you more interested in determining whether or not your beliefs are true or likely to be true?

If this is the only life we have (and it certainly seems to be the case), then it is all the more reason to want this life to be better. To experience, learn, love. To be so unsatisfied with this life that people literally look forward to an afterlife that in all likelihood doesn't even exist, I think, is actually a great tragedy, and detracts us from improving the life that we know for certain we DO have.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Man how do people even find random threads from 3 years ago and post on them? Seems like a lot of effort

 

[Thundercrack85]

Here's my problem. And I hate to by a whinny baby about my problems to complete strangers especially when it is about something that is so personal, but I do not know where else to turn to, and was really hoping someone, ANYONE could please shed some light and give me the answers that I seek.

A atheist friend of mine has basically proven to me (without even trying hard at all) that there is no afterlife, that once we die, that is it.

I of course after months of research and stress can not live with the thought of never existing after I die in any conscious way.

I found out about, a challenge made by someone who would give over a million dollars to anyone who could please just prove once and for all in a controlled setting that this OBE or AP belief is real to the point where at least ONE person can claim the money. So far to this day, nothing. NO proof, and no claims.

I heard all the boo hoo excuses of how it is bad karma money, or how money is not important, and blah blah blah.

Then damn it do for free and give the money away to charity.

I do not understand what to believe anymore. Can someone please use reason and logic to help me. Because as far as I am concerned, there is no point of living, I am very depressed with this realization, and I know it is not anyone job to make me feel better. But I can not understand how if there are so many people who make the claims that they can make, but yet no one wants the money? Or at least to prove it is real?

Please someone help me with this. Thank you.
Signed,
Sincerely MR.depressed, and afraid of the infinite end.

But you do have to seriously ask yourself what the alternative is. To live forever? To never die? In most religions, you have no choice. You don't have any control over your own fate. Heaven, hell, it's all decided by someone else. And it is eternal. The idea of never dying, never ceasing to exist, is scarier than the prospect of dying.

The fact that you can die, should make life more meaningful, not less meaningful.

 

[jaqua99]

A lot of 3 dimensional thinking here. The fact that people need "scientific evidence" to prove it, shows how lost most souls are, and why the ascension to 4th dimensional awareness has basically stopped.

Psychology is a very close minded field, with incredible biases. I am a student of Psychology, and I will say this first hand.

The notion that something can't be deemed as fact because we can't prove it with science shows the problems when it comes to understanding how consciousness works. Already in a box.

 

[moviedoors]

A lot of 3 dimensional thinking here. The fact that people need "scientific evidence" to prove it, shows how lost most souls are, and why the ascension to 4th dimensional awareness has basically stopped.

Psychology is a very close minded field, with incredible biases. I am a student of Psychology, and I will say this first hand.

The notion that something can't be deemed as fact because we can't prove it with science shows the problems when it comes to understanding how consciousness works. Already in a box.

Oh yeah? Prove it!

 

[Thundercrack85]

Is there a gas leak on this forum or something?

 

[SV Fan]

I've had a drug induced out of body experience.

Me to, I just chalked it up to somebody must have spiked the weed with acid or something. lol