Atheism : Love it or Leave it?

[Super Kal]

Yes, and then, believers will go to Heaven, where they will be stripped of their free will and become mindless automatons that God forces into doing Good.

God doesn't force us to do anything... if He did, we'd be living a life in Christ through fear and hatred, and I know for an absolute fact that I don't live that way, nor will I live that existence when I meet Him.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I don't understand why people insist upon debating such topics. It's not like one's argument will change another's (no matter how ridiculous and close-minded the opposition is.)

 

[SuperFerret]

I don't understand why people insist upon debating such topics. It's not like one's argument will change another's (no matter how ridiculous and close-minded the opposition is.)

People don't like to be wrong, and in an extension of that people don't like to be told they're wrong, so this debate will go on, and turn uglier and uglier until it gets to the point where both sides look so much alike that there's no argument at all.

 

[chaseter]

All man made systems fall victim to the very fact that they are man made.
Science as a system always challenges itself, it welcomes change, testing and retesting theories, many scholarly minds coming together and working relentlessly for answers.

Your reaction seems to imply that you might not believe that all religions are man made, but all research I have been made aware of point to it. Sure, most derive from stories of a prophet or God inspiring the writings, but proof for that is never provided.

Religions are formed on dogma, and once it gains momentum does everything it can to build on the mystery of it all and struggles against change. Many religions will branch off from the original one, with more emphasis on certain passages, or slight variations, but not much changes.

Religion has always used the gaps in science as one of the main proponents to proof of Gods existence, then science fills a major gap, and then they grasp unto some other gap in knowledge.

There is not a 50/50 probability for and against the existence of God(s), the evidence and logic behind a creator is less then the probability of no God, and that we are the end result of natural selection, not supernatural will.

My reaction is from you stating that all religions are man made which I thought was kind of obvious. Religion has also not always used the 'gaps' in Science since religion has been around longer than organized Science. You also cannot put a probability on something that can neither be proven false or truth. There are also a large number of believers, including myself, that believe evolution and natural selection exist and can go hand in hand with religion.

 

[chaseter]

Many unbelievers are motivated by anger or hatred, probably because a so-called "Christian" hurt them at one time or another. So, instead of holding that one person accountable, they blame the whole faith. It's a classic case of "judging the majority by the acts of a few". They think that since God allowed this painful incident to happen, then it must be inherently His fault.

They reject the idea of completely free will because deep down, they want to avoid responsibility for their own actions. God gave us dominion over all the earth, and everything upon it. That includes the choice (right or wrong) to abuse, neglect, and even destroy it...not to mention each other. A person's will is never free, until he has the option to choose between both life and death, light and darkness. This fallen world contains both for the time being (although Revelation describes a future with God's light reigning supreme, and evil's power forever destroyed).

God does have the power to stop us from destroying each other, and in some cases, He does use it, by working on a person's heart. However, because He is pure truth, His power is limited by free will. If He actively forced someone to obey Him, the result wouldn't be one of love or reverence, but of hatred and fear. God wants us to love Him above all else, but He also knows we've been granted the freedom to refuse...and He must allow it. To do otherwise would make Him an imperfect liar, and God is neither.

Please don't quote me because you, to me, represent the far conservative side of Christianity that would kill people in the name of something and further drive our image into the ground by making yourself seem better than others through literal translation of a book of rules. Pat Robertson you are.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

God doesn't force us to do anything... if He did, we'd be living a life in Christ through fear and hatred, and I know for an absolute fact that I don't live that way, nor will I live that existence when I meet Him.

First, Why does God allow people to rape babies to death and steal from the poor and why does he allow horrible diseases and unspeakable suffering, without stepping in to use his power to help us?

Because, we have to have "Free Will", he can't force us to be Good.

So, since we all know that there will be NO sin, NO suffering and NO death in Heaven, if your logic for the God's excuse from our current suffering works, then that must mean that God strips us of our Free Will when we get to Heaven.
Do you understand that?




Next, double standard alert

If, in a thread about opinions, a Christian's opinion involves Christian doctrine, and I take a little detour to challenge that doctrine, which is unrelated to the specific topic of the thread...I get chewed out. I'm told, " This isn't the place for that. ****!", etc.

This thread is about ATHEISM. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It's asking for thoughts on the validity of ATHEISM as a belief system, and then people can express their disagreement with it by supporting the idea of faith that there is a God, or COULD be a God.

So why are you Christians spewing your Doctrine and Biblical fairy tales?
This is supposed to be a discussion about ATHEISM, not the tired old regurgitation of myths about God's NATURE...it's about if there even IS a "God" or not.

But see, Christians are totally free to befoul the discourse by stating their foundless beliefs as facts, but it's only when a non-Christian speaks up to expose them for the nonsense they are, that suddenly, "We have to get back on topic".

 

[SuperFerret]

It could be that atheism, as a practice, itself really doesn't stand on it's own.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

What does that mean?

 

[Super Kal]

First, Why does God allow people to rape babies to death and steal from the poor and why does he allow horrible diseases and unspeakable suffering, without stepping in to use his power to help us?

Because, we have to have "Free Will", he can't force us to be Good.

So, since we all know that there will be NO sin, NO suffering and NO death in Heaven, if your logic for the God's excuse from our current suffering works, then that must mean that God strips us of our Free Will when we get to Heaven.
Do you understand that?

we will not be stripped our free will, Wilhelm, but we will live freely and with free will through the love and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What Moviefan said was absolutely right... We will have a new body and nature, completely clean of evil.

Next, double standard alert

If, in a thread about opinions, a Christian's opinion involves Christian doctrine, and I take a little detour to challenge that doctrine, which is unrelated to the specific topic of the thread...I get chewed out. I'm told, " This isn't the place for that. ****!", etc.

This thread is about ATHEISM. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It's asking for thoughts on the validity of ATHEISM as a belief system, and then people can express their disagreement with it by supporting the idea of faith that there is a God, or COULD be a God.

So why are you Christians spewing your Doctrine and Biblical fairy tales?
This is supposed to be a discussion about ATHEISM, not the tired old regurgitation of myths about God's NATURE...it's about if there even IS a "God" or not.

But see, Christians are totally free to befoul the discourse by stating their foundless beliefs as facts, but it's only when a non-Christian speaks up to expose them for the nonsense they are, that suddenly, "We have to get back on topic".

like any other thread on the SHH, this thread is not limited to only one group of people. Everyone has the freedom of opinion and that freedom to express it in a polite manner, and so far I have done that.

I'm not calling anyone idiots, bigots, or hypocrites in this thread. I am simply stating my view and my opinion calmly and politely, and I have every right to do so.

 

[SuperFerret]

It can't be discussed as a religion, because it isn't. There are no Atheist doctrines, no Atheist holy book. Atheism is just a personal view on the "God question" everyone asks themselves, nothing more. It also needs religion to be what it is, as there wouldn't be a "God question" were there no religion.

 

[teseract]

Not really; we'll simply be given a new nature, that's not corrupted by the enemy. Try to imagine an eternity of existence without any desire to do evil...sounds pretty good to me.

I don't think it sounds good at all.

 

[teseract]

we will not be stripped our free will, Wilhelm, but we will live freely and with free will through the love and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What Moviefan said was absolutely right... We will have a new body and nature, completely clean of evil.

Sorry, but that idea is highly flawed.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

we will not be stripped our free will, Wilhelm, but we will live freely and with free will through the love and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What Moviefan said was absolutely right... We will have a new body and nature, completely clean of evil.

Why doesn't God give everyone a new body and a new nature right now?...especially if it doesn't interfere with their Free Will?




Also, this has WHAT to do with Atheism again?
This is Christian doctrine. Here you are again restating Christian doctrine as fact in a thread about Atheism.

like any other thread on the SHH, this thread is not limited to only one group of people. Everyone has the freedom of opinion and that freedom to express it in a polite manner.

...except people who are against Christianity.
I'm told to shut up about Christianity all the time.
It's weird, it's like, you don't comprehend my posts at all...like you're just ignoring what I'm saying.

1. the Free Will thing
2. my complaint about a Double Standard

 

[Super Kal]

Why doesn't God give everyone a new body and a new nature right now?...especially if it doesn't interfere with their Free Will?

because we have to earn it...

you don't get you don't get a 6 digit salary when you start out in the work force... you have to earn it.

Also, this has WHAT to do with Atheism again?
This is Christian doctrine. Here you are again restating Christian doctrine as fact in a thread about Atheism.

you do the same damn thing in every Christianity thread that has existed, so don't play this "I'm innocent" game with me.

...except people who are against Christianity.
I'm told to shut up about Christianity all the time.
It's weird, it's like, you don't comprehend my posts at all...like you're just ignoring what I'm saying.

1. the Free Will thing
2. my complaint about a Double Standard

moviefan told you about the nature of free will in heaven, and of course you just ignored him.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Please don't quote me because you, to me, represent the far conservative side of Christianity that would kill people in the name of something and further drive our image into the ground by making yourself seem better than others through literal translation of a book of rules. Pat Robertson you are.

First, I quote most everyone when replying to them; its just common forum etiquette.

Secondly, I am conservative, but I generally don't believe in the trading of one life for another (Christ's sacrifice being the sole exception). It's one of many reasons why I disagree with most death penalty cases, and why I oppose abortion and embryonic stem-cell research, just to name a few.

Thirdly, I don't deny that many battles have been fought in the name of Christ. But I also recognize that the majority of those fighters were religious extremists, rather than true believers. Christianity has nothing at all to do with religion; by contrast, it's about a personal relationship between humanity and God through Christ. There are rules and guidelines, but they alone are not the foundation of the faith. As for Pat Robertson, I disagree with him on many issues. I admire his (apparent) dedication, but I feel his decisions are often misguided.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Why doesn't God give everyone a new body and a new nature right now?...especially if it doesn't interfere with their Free Will?

The short and simple answer is that if God granted us our reborn bodies now, they'd just be corrupted again by a fallen world. He is saving that "transformation" (for lack of a better word) for our days in Heaven. Since there's no evil at all there, then our reborn natures won't be corrupted.

 

[Bubonic]

It can't be discussed as a religion, because it isn't. There are no Atheist doctrines, no Atheist holy book. Atheism is just a personal view on the "God question" everyone asks themselves, nothing more. It also needs religion to be what it is, as there wouldn't be a "God question" were there no religion.

Although I am sure there are a handful of atheist that derive their "beliefs" as a rebellious measure and don't put much thought into it, you could say the majority of atheist have some understanding, and respect for science.
Science is what they use to measure the world, the better read an atheist, the more firmly entrenched in his or her beliefs they are.

You make your God seem so benevolent, when review of some of the Books darker passages would reveal Him to be sexist, genocidal, jealous, homophobic and a bunch of other foul things.

Jesus is a much nicer fellow, but isn't free of fault.

How does it make you feel that the only reason most of you are Christian is because you happen to have parents that probably gave you no choice in the matter, that you where born in an environment that almost made it inevitable?

Religion doesn't bother me wholesale, its the way it is implemented in society that is cumbersome. From early on I've dealt with people telling me unfounded lies, confusing the reality of things, trying to cloud my mind.

We today live in a world run by strong undertones of religious fundamentalism, Moviefan2k4 you pointed out an interesting doctrine, in that God gave us the earth to do with as we please, and thats exactly the mentality which he unjustly gave humans too much importance and is destroying our world.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

because we have to earn it...

OH!
So every single Christian who ever told me that we can not earn our Salvation, and that Salvation is a free gift from God, and that none are righteous enough to please God and that it's only Jesus' sacrifice that covers our sin, and not by our own works, that we are saved....

They were all either lying to me, or were wrong.

Cool, thanks for finally having the balls to admit what almost no single Christian I've spoken with will admit...that we have to earn our Slavation ( <- a typo, but I think I'll leave it like that, lol).

Red Letter Day here, thank you! up:

 

[Bubonic]

You could just buy some indulgences t:!

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

you do the same damn thing in every Christianity thread that has existed, so don't play this "I'm innocent" game with me.

Wow, I was right.

You really don't understand the meaning of "Double Standard".

See, I wasn't denying IN ANY WAY that I drag Anti-Christianity into threads that aren't about that specific topic, in fact...d'Oh, I SAID THAT I DO THAT. ....as an "aside".


My complaint was not that you two are shoveling Christian falsehoods into this thread about Atheism. It's the D.O.U.B.L.E. S.T.A.N.D.A.R.D. I'm complaining about.....that Christians can freely inject their "beliefs" into any thread, but I can NOT enjoy the same privilege without getting chewed out and having weak-willed, paper-skinned Christians calling mods and

working

to have MY words deleted.


See, I would never want to shut you up, it's the Christians that are dying to shut down anyone who disagrees with them that piss me off.

Is the fog starting to clear yet?

moviefan told you about the nature of free will in heaven, and of course you just ignored him.

No he didn't.
He said new body/new nature is for Heaven because this world is corrupt.
That doesn't explain why God won't practice what he preaches and forgive everybody and take them to Heaven.



And AGAIN, this has WHAT to do with Atheism?

 

[Captain_BluTac]

Hasn't This Thread Already Been done

 

[Super Kal]

OH!
So every single Christian who ever told me that we can not earn our Salvation, and that Salvation is a free gift from God, and that none are righteous enough to please God and that it's only Jesus' sacrifice that covers our sin, and not by our own works, that we are saved....

They were all either lying to me, or were wrong.

Cool, thanks for finally having the balls to admit what almost no single Christian I've spoken with will admit...that we have to earn our Slavation ( <- a typo, but I think I'll leave it like that, lol).

Red Letter Day here, thank you! up:

accepting Christ into our lives is earning it.

wow... you are the most close minded person I have ever met.

 

[Super Kal]

Wow, I was right.

You really don't understand the meaning of "Double Standard".

See, I wasn't denying IN ANY WAY that I drag Anti-Christianity into threads that aren't about that specific topic, in fact...d'Oh, I SAID THAT I DO THAT. ....as an "aside".


My complaint was not that you two are shoveling Christian falsehoods into this thread about Atheism. It's the D.O.U.B.L.E. S.T.A.N.D.A.R.D. I'm complaining about.....that Christians can freely inject their "beliefs" into any thread, but I can NOT enjoy the same privilege without getting chewed out and having weak-willed, paper-skinned Christians calling mods and to have MY words deleted.


See, I would never want to shut you up, it's the Christians that are dying to shut down anyone who disagrees with them that piss me off.

Is the fog starting to clear yet?


No he didn't.
He said new body/new nature is for Heaven because this world is corrupt.
That doesn't explain why God won't practice what he preaches and forgive everybody and take them to Heaven.



And AGAIN, this has WHAT to do with Atheism?

oh, so it's okay for you to insult Christians at every turn on here, but when it comes to you and your beliefs, THEN the rules of The Hype come into play...

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I doubt he was explicitly referring to salvation, Wilhelm. There are things which we all must earn in this world, but salvation is not one of them. Scripture clearly states, "...it is a gift of God, not of yourselves, so that no man can boast".

What then, you may ask, do we earn? Well, people are given salvation as a free gift for faith in Christ, so that's not it. But we are judged by what we do with regard to our talents on Earth. God made each of us differently, with various skills...and one question He will ask at the end is, "What did you do for my Kingdom, with what I gave you?" It's like the parable of the ten servants, found in the Book of Luke...

"A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. Before he left, he called together ten of his servants and divided among them ten pounds of silver, saying, "Invest this for me while I am gone." But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, "We do not want him to be our king." After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits were. The first servant reported, "Master, I invested your money and made ten times the original amount!"

“Well done!" the king exclaimed. "You are a good servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward." The next servant reported, ‘Master, I invested your money and made five times the original amount. “Well done!’ the king said. "You will be governor over five cities." But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, "Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn’t yours and harvesting crops you didn’t plant."

"You wicked servant!" the king roared. "Your own words condemn you. If you knew that I’m a hard man who takes what isn’t mine and harvests crops I didn’t plant, why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it." Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, "Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten pounds." “But, master," they said, "he already has ten pounds!" “Yes," the king replied, "and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king—bring them in and execute them right here in front of me." ~Luke 19:12-27~

 

[Super Kal]

thank you, moviefan... I admit, I worded it wrong.