Atheism : Love it or Leave it?

[ShadowBoxing]

So you do think the God of the Bible would have to be "stupid and shortsighted".
Okay, it's hard to tell sometimes.

Well if you're referring to Earth, the God of the Bible didn't create a perfect world. He said in Genesis "he saw that it was "good"", and also that he created man as "Godlike". However it's quite apparent Adam and Eve were mortal from birth, just too stupid to realize it.

If you're referring to Heaven, which I wouldn't say I buy, it's hard to say how I'd feel about that. You'd only be a spirit in Heaven, therefore you would be free of you're humanity. You could be so enlightened by that point death, pain and suffering would lose their meaning.

Personally though, I'd say my beliefs are closer to Hinduism, Buddhism or Platoian philosophy, which are all pretty similar.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

It's like slapping the tooth fairy when she only gives you $1.

I can imagine her contrite expression now.t:

"but...I have quotas to fill!"
* SLAP *

 

[ShadowBoxing]

It's like slapping the tooth fairy when she only gives you $1.

Everyone knows she's a total b*tch

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Well if you're referring to Earth, the God of the Bible didn't create a perfect world. He said in Genesis "he saw that it was "good"", and also that he created man as "Godlike". However it's quite apparent Adam and Eve were mortal from birth, just too stupid to realize it.

If you're referring to Heaven, which I wouldn't say I buy, it's hard to say how I'd feel about that. You'd only be a spirit in Heaven, therefore you would be free of you're humanity. You could be so enlightened by that point death, pain and suffering would lose their meaning.

Personally though, I'd say my beliefs are closer to Hinduism, Buddhism or Platoian philosophy, which are all pretty similar.

actually, the implication in Genesis is that it WAS in fact a perfect world and all plants and animals were created for man to have reign over them as God had reign over man, it is only AFTER the sin of disobedience that "imperfection" comes into the the picture.
I mean, serpents talked and were "clever" how awesome!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

actually, the implication in Genesis is that it WAS in fact a perfect world and all plants and animals were created for man to have reign over them as God had reign over man, it is only AFTER the sin of disobedience that "imperfection" comes into the the picture.
I mean, serpents talked and were "clever" how awesome!

Hmmmm, you need to read the text a little closer. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. It's apparent, from the beginning Adam treats Eve like a pet. In addition, both Adam and Eve had to eat from "the tree of life" to sustain immortality. What kind of "perfect" being has to sustain itself with an external source, exactly?

Ironically, if we go be the text, strictly, God never claims to be perfect either.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

If you're referring to Heaven, which I wouldn't say I buy, it's hard to say how I'd feel about that. You'd only be a spirit in Heaven, therefore you would be free of you're humanity. You could be so enlightened by that point death, pain and suffering would lose their meaning.

I'm, well aware that Earth sucks ass in too many ways to count.
I was talking about Heaven, which is a world without suffering or Death that God supposedly creates for his worshipers, and a world that is clearly promised in the Bible.

 

[Anguissette1979]

Hmmmm, you need to read the text a little closer. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. It's apparent, from the beginning Adam treats Eve like a pet. In addition, both Adam and Eve had to eat from "the tree of life" to sustain immortality. What kind of "perfect" being has to sustain itself with an external source, exactly?

But what if men treating women as pets is the christian god's idea of perfection? They are "imperfect" from our perspective but if they words in the bible are 100% true? Ask yourself... WWMFS? (What Would MovieFan Say)? Or anyone else who interprets the bible literally for that matter...

Well, buy me a leashed collar and call my Sparky!

 

[Obi-Ron]

I still say the creation myth is a parable. The fictional kind.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Hmmmm, you need to read the text a little closer. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. It's apparent, from the beginning Adam treats Eve like a pet. In addition, both Adam and Eve had to eat from "the tree of life" to sustain immortality. What kind of "perfect" being has to sustain itself with an external source, exactly?

Ironically, if we go be the text, strictly, God never claims to be perfect either.

I like how lofty this sounds coming from a person who apparently is not familiar with the definition of "implication".
also, I like how you judge biblical "perfection" from a 20th century standpoint.

 

[TBadora]

...serpents talked and were "clever" how awesome!

You don't know the half of it!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

But what if men treating women as pets is the christian god's idea of perfection? They are "imperfect" from our perspective but if they words in the bible are 100% true? Ask yourself... WWMFS? (What Would MovieFan Say)? Or anyone else who interprets the bible literally for that matter...

Well, buy me a leashed collar and call my Sparky!

There are a lot of terrible people in the Bible, but the underlying philosophy is "treat your neighbor as you would yourself". I think the point the Bible tries to make, from Cain and Able to Jesus and beyond is people are far from perfect but the tradition of the Jews and Christians (and therefore of God) is stronger than the weak willed and horrible people who carry it.

This is certainly a message I can relate to. America is based on the notions of equality, justice and peace. Ironically we've been responsible for a lot of things that directly violate those principles, but the ethics and bonds of this country are stronger than the imperfect people that are entrusted with them.

To rise above, to attempt to change our fate then is the goal. Adam and Eve are made very aware of their shortcomings after eating the fruit. Perhaps this isn't a punishment, but a "moment of clarity". It's not saying this is our fate, but the burden we must overcome. We all start out behind as it were, but the greatest among us overcome by not allowing their burdens to get the better of them.

I think Abraham Lincoln put it best: "We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection". A sentiment much similar to the Bible. We like to think our petty differences and burdens are special, that they earn us special treatment, and because of this often we don't take the time to understand ourselves. However these principles, of both my country, the Bible and many many other philosophies based around promoting "the good" have endured despite the atrocies of this world.

It's easy and intellectually lazy to sit back and say we're screwed, because ultimately it removes one from any responsibility they have in their situation. It's hard to be the one who attempts to carry something great than oneself, to try to overcome, change the way things are to the way they ought to be. Even if you fail in this attempt, you've lived a far better life than those who have done nothing and wondered what could have been.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

There are a lot of terrible people in the Bible, but the underlying philosophy is "treat your neighbor as you would yourself".

No, please, for accuracy's sake...that's the underlying philosophy of the New Testament.

Routinely in the Old Testament, the message is very explicit, "Kill your neighbors if they don't submit to God.", "Kill your children if they disobey.", "Kill people.", "Do e-x-a-c-t-l-y as God says or he'll make your life a living Hell (and even then, he may just pick you out like Job and make your life Hell and you'd better shut up and thank him for it, because if you have the nerve to even ask him why he's doing it, his answer will be, "Who are you to ask me that?! "),

The philosophy is that Sinners must die...preferably in a slow, cruel way.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Old Testament God was not one to be trifled with.

 

[Zoken]

Old Testament God was not one to be trifled with.

Nope, he wasn't. His kid though was a long haired hippie.

 

[Tally Man]

Old Testament God was not one to be trifled with.

To quote Lewis Black the old testament god is a *****.

 

[Bill]

Hmmmm, you need to read the text a little closer. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. It's apparent, from the beginning Adam treats Eve like a pet. In addition, both Adam and Eve had to eat from "the tree of life" to sustain immortality. What kind of "perfect" being has to sustain itself with an external source, exactly?

Ironically, if we go be the text, strictly, God never claims to be perfect either.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Unless it has to be directly from God's mouth, which to some Christians means all of scripture.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Unless it has to be directly from God's mouth, which to some Christians means all of scripture.

Well, yes I guess I could say that. What I meant though was in Genesis God never claims to be perfect.

However you bring up an interesting aside. If you're reading the Bible you really ought not to assume it's written by God. It doesn't claim to be written by God, and there are very few things in the Bible that claim to be his words directly.

 

[Anguissette1979]

Well, yes I guess I could say that. What I meant though was in Genesis God never claims to be perfect.

However you bring up an interesting aside. If you're reading the Bible you really ought not to assume it's written by God. It doesn't claim to be written by God, and there are very few things in the Bible that claim to be his words directly.

Tell that to Moviefan and other literalists.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Tell that to Moviefan and other literalists.

I understand Moviefan's opinion on the Bible. I don't necessarily agree with his interpretation but he has a right to it, I don't see him doing anything wrong here.

 

[Anguissette1979]

I understand Moviefans opinion on the Bible. I don't necessarily agree with his interpretation but he has a right to it, I don't see him doing anything wrong here.

I never said he was - I just think he would disagree with your statement that the bible isn't "written by god" or the word of god.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I never said he was - I just think he would disagree with your statement that the bible isn't "written by god" or the word of god.

Well he agreed with my interpretation of Genesis a few pages back, or at least was swayed by the argument I made for it. Maybe he would disagree, unless his belief influences his behavior in a negative or self-destructive way he's perfectly fine to believe it. Frankly I see a lot of back and forth here from a lot of people who are in no position to dictate scriptural interpretation either way. You all have the benefit of arguing on a superhero message board. If anyone here decided to take their gripes to a message board devoted to religion I think you'd find a different crop of people far more well versed in it.

Also you might consider why Moviefan believes what he does; try to see his side of the coin. I went to school, and a very highly ranked school at that, with a number of Evangelicals. While I experienced a number of arguments in which I was personally attacked for some of my habits, like sex and drinking, I befriended a number of these Christians and found we had interests and bonds that transcended our beliefs. It's possible to be critical of someone and something while recognizing the fact that some very clear good comes of it. For some of these people the literal Bible provided them with a hope for a better tomorrow or may have been what got them out of bed in the morning. You might find this personally silly, but my best friend believes this and you'd never find a person who gets more joy out of life than he does, and (I'm ashamed to admit) there is no one who seems to admire me as much as he does....and I don't subscribe to what he believes.

 

[Bill]

Well, yes I guess I could say that. What I meant though was in Genesis God never claims to be perfect.

However you bring up an interesting aside. If you're reading the Bible you really ought not to assume it's written by God. It doesn't claim to be written by God, and there are very few things in the Bible that claim to be his words directly.

There are passages in the Bible that claim all scripture is "God-breathed" or "inspired."(depending on the translation you are using) Or are you referring to a direct quote from God?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

There are passages in the Bible that claim all scripture is "God-breathed" or "inspired."(depending on the translation you are using) Or are you referring to a direct quote from God?

I'd say, by and large, the latter.

 

[Bill]

I'd say, by and large, the latter.

It'd be interesting to hear a literalist Christian's perspective on the claim that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of manuscripts with borrowed myths, stories and fables interwoven with history and finally collected, edited and pieced together to form what we call the Bible.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

It'd be interesting to hear a literalist Christian's perspective on the claim that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of manuscripts with borrowed myths, stories and fables interwoven with history and finally collected, edited and pieced together to form what we call the Bible.

even though, that is what the Bible is.