Batman: kill or not kill?

[theMan-Bat]

Year Two.

Hmm. I'll have to look through my Year Two back issues, I don't remember him doing that.

 

[Cobblepot]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=278721&highlight=batman+kill

Caught in the act! panel #3 from Detective Comics 572.
Written by Mike W. Barr.

Discuss the killer that is...

Whud..Whud..whud t:..

 

[theMan-Bat]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=278721&highlight=batman+kill

Caught in the act! panel #3 from Detective Comics 572.
Written by Mike W. Barr.

Discuss the killer that is...

Whud..Whud..whud t:..

And art by Alan Davis. Thank you! It's all coming back to me!

 

[Cobblepot]

And don't forget, a 12 year old is his accomplice!!

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Hmm. I'll have to look through my Year Two back issues, I don't remember him doing that.

i guess i was wrong.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=278721&highlight=batman+kill

Caught in the act! panel #3 from Detective Comics 572.
Written by Mike W. Barr.

Discuss the killer that is...

Whud..Whud..whud t:..

that's one of those directionless post-crisis comics. Year Two, Son of the Demon.. all experimental.

 

[Nepenthes]

No it isn't. The Batman who appeared in DETECTIVE COMICS #27 - the one conceived and created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane, is as close to the "true" Batman as there is. And that Batman killed. I am an opposer of censorship in any form. It was an editorial policy that decided that Batman killing criminals is bad, not Finger and Kane.
"We had our first brush with censorship over Batman's use of a gun in BATMAN #1. In one story in that issue he had a machine gun mounted on his Batplane and used it. We didn't think anything was wrong with Batman carrying guns because the Shadow used guns. Bill Finger was called on to the carpet by Whitney Ellsworth. He said 'Never let Batman carry a gun again!' The editors thought that making Batman a 'murderer' would taint his character, and mothers would object. The new editorial policy was to get away from Batman's vigilantism and bring him over to the side of the law. So he was remade as an honorary member of the police. The whole moral climate changed in the 1940-1941 period. You couldn't kill or shot villains anymore. DC prepared it's own comics code which every artist and writer had to follow. He wasn't the Dark Knight anymore with all the censorship."
- Bob Kane, from his book Batman And Me.
http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2005/08/batman-and-guns.html
If Batman is to function in any sort of real world he wouldn't be able to avoid killing on occasion.

Being against censorship doesn't mean you have to deny reality. Bob Kane designed Batman as a guy in a red shirt with a domino mask. Is that the '"true" Dark Knight then? Just because childrens comics were being marketed towards childen wow back in 1941 is doesn't undo decades of stoytelling and character development and canon. The true Batman doesn't kill. Killers don't appear on lunchboxes.

 

[Joker]

Does anyone have the panel where he throws some guy into a vat of acid, killing him, and then says "a fitting end fo his kind!"

And Nepenthes, there are Punisher lunchboxes. Neither version of the character is "wrong" and neither is the "true version." Both versions of the character are just as valid.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Being against censorship doesn't mean you have to deny reality. Bob Kane designed Batman as a guy in a red shirt with a domino mask. Is that the '"true" Dark Knight then?

That was not Batman, that was "Birdman". If that is what Bob Kane wanted Batman to have that is how Batman would have been in Detective Comics #27. Bob Kane is only the co-creator. Not the sole creator.

 

[Nepenthes]

^ Well he did have batwings as well, ha ha, but I get your point. I just meant to say that what Bob Kane intended doesn't really mean squat anymore, other people did most of "his" work anyway and Batman has grown waaaay beyond his earliest incarnations. Sure they still exist, sure they're still valid as products of their time but they're hardly definitive when you consider the Batman most people know and accept and the version of Batman that DC wishes to propogate. I just have to disagree when people claim that both versions are "equally valid" (I'm talking to you Joker ) because obviously, if a gun-toting Batman appeared in a book today, be it an Elseworlds, in canon or whatever, people would look at it and say "oh that's unusual, what's going on here". It wouldn't be just casual appeaance, even if it has a basis in the past. By being outside the outside it's less definitive and less "true", even if it isn't exactly "wrong".

Fair point on the lunchboxes Joker, guess I didn't think that through! There's also a little guy called Wolverine. anyway I was trying to refer to Batman as a corporate property, he is absolutely NOT a killer, the guy in the cartoons, the toys, the rollercoaster dies.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Of course The Batman should not kill.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

But outside of Joker and maybe Ras he never even comes close to thinking about killing someone.

Dont forget Qayin from Batman: Son of the Demon whom Batman did kill.

Yeah, it's brown dirt/mud.

But you also do realize that the The Killing Joke has a place in Batman chronology, right? It's not a what-if story. He crippled Barbara, and she remained crippled thereafter in the monthly books. Thus, had Bats killed Joker...well, Joker would have been dead.

Not originally.When the story was first written and published it was not intended to be part of the regular continuity.

They decided to bring it into canon do to its its popularity.

 

[bulletbillx]

Dont forget Qayin from Batman: Son of the Demon whom Batman did kill.



Not originally.When the story was first written and published it was not intended to be part of the regular continuity.

They decided to bring it into canon do to its its popularity.

I forgot they brought Son of the Demon or at least elements back into continuity. For awhile it was an Elseworlds.

 

[Cornelius Stirk]

not kill

 

[The Navigator]

Kill after they escape from Arkham for the fifth time. There comes a time when enough's enough.

 

[Joker]

I just have to disagree when people claim that both versions are "equally valid" (I'm talking to you Joker ) because obviously, if a gun-toting Batman appeared in a book today, be it an Elseworlds, in canon or whatever, people would look at it and say "oh that's unusual, what's going on here". It wouldn't be just casual appeaance, even if it has a basis in the past. By being outside the outside it's less definitive and less "true", even if it isn't exactly "wrong".

Batman killed, and used guns in Burtons movies. The Batmobile has guns on it in Begins (ok, he only used them on inanimate objects, but still). Frank Millers Batman killed a bunch of cops with the guns on his batmobile in All Star. Want me to keep going on? There are plenty of occasions of Batman using guns in current, popular things, and no one thinks twice about them. One could argue in Begins he indirectly killed Ra's even. So yeah, they're both equally valid. Just because you personally preffer one to the other does not take anything away from either.

 

[Nous]

Of course he kills. He kills a lot of people, just not...on purpose..LOL!

 

[souloffire]

The reason Batman doesn't kill is not because of some high moral code, it's simply an editorial decision. You can't kill off popular characters and risk losing sales. It's all about money. That's why he'll never kill the Joker even though he has no reason not too.

 

[Mister J]

The reason Batman doesn't kill is not because of some high moral code, it's simply an editorial decision. You can't kill off popular characters and risk losing sales. It's all about money. That's why he'll never kill the Joker even though he has no reason not too.

Umm, everything that Batman does is simply an editorial decision.

They've made such a decision to impart on the character a valuation and preservation of human life, or a 'high moral code' as you put it. This isn't an actual person, being adapted into a new medium. It's all how the principals at DC want to portray him. If you want to bring the editors into it, there's no point in marveling at Bats' discipline, savvy, resourcefulness of any other character trait; it's all editorial.

Of course, he's not going to kill the Joker, largely for the financial reasons that you alluded to. However, that doesn't mean the character couldn't be shown regularly killing random run-of-the-mill crooks if the situation warranted. Though modern incarnations of Batman's actions may be shown to result in the loss of human life, the decision has been made to overwhelmingly not portray the character to be an executioner.

 

[souloffire]

Some people get a little carried away with the "Batman doesn't kill" "it's not in his character" stuff. The point I'm trying to make is the only reason it's in his character is because the creators were told to make him that way. Bob Kane's Batman was a vigilante who killed. But the higher ups thought a Batman who didn't kill would be better for sales. They were probably right. It's really not a debatable issue because it was a business decision. Bottom line is if you want Batman to kill go read The Punisher.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Batman killed, and used guns in Burtons movies.

The only guns he used in the Burton movies was on the Batmobile....but Batman did kill in the first 2 Burton films.

Frank Millers Batman killed a bunch of cops with the guns on his batmobile in All Star.

Didnt they say it was rubber bullets???

Want me to keep going on? There are plenty of occasions of Batman using guns in current, popular things, and no one thinks twice about them. One could argue in Begins he indirectly killed Ra's even. So yeah, they're both equally valid. Just because you personally preffer one to the other does not take anything away from either.

I can agree with you here.

 

[Ender Durden]

One thing that i have a serious problem with is in Dark Knight Returns

It is when batman is fighting the mutant gang members after he breaks through the wall and he grabs the guy with the giant machine gun. The other mutant nabs a kid hostage and batman, without even second-thinking it, tears him up with machine gun fire and in pure action movie fashion, ends with the line "I believe you".


then as the rest of the book goes on, he battles with his conscience on whether or not to kill the Joker. He even says himself that he has inadvertently murdered hundreds just by not killing ONE man. And finally, at the end like SO many other writers have followed since then, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to not kill the Joker.

seriously i think that was just bad writing on Millers part, in an otherwise flawless book.

 

[theMan-Bat]

One thing that i have a serious problem with is in Dark Knight Returns

It is when batman is fighting the mutant gang members after he breaks through the wall and he grabs the guy with the giant machine gun. The other mutant nabs a kid hostage and batman, without even second-thinking it, tears him up with machine gun fire and in pure action movie fashion, ends with the line "I believe you".


then as the rest of the book goes on, he battles with his conscience on whether or not to kill the Joker. He even says himself that he has inadvertently murdered hundreds just by not killing ONE man. And finally, at the end like SO many other writers have followed since then, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to not kill the Joker.

seriously i think that was just bad writing on Millers part, in an otherwise flawless book.

It brings to light Batman's flaws, his mental instability.

 

[Joker]

Didnt they say it was rubber bullets???

No, that's DKR. He was blowing up cop cars, with cops in them in All Star. And then later, him and Black Canary killed a bunch of thugs, and had anonymous sex amongst there corpses. God, I love that book...

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No, that's DKR. He was blowing up cop cars, with cops in them in All Star. And then later, him and Black Canary killed a bunch of thugs, and had anonymous sex amongst there corpses. God, I love that book...

So do I.....but I didnt realize that those guys were dead after the fight.I'll have to read threw the books again.

It could be that I'm so used to Batman not killing that I didnt notice that they were dead.