BvS Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

[JOE]

Kryptonite will have to be in this movie. There's no other way of doing it. Supes is just too much of a powerhouse.

 

[Nathan]

You only need Kryptonite if you actually want to have Batman beat Superman. But this should be treated as a Team-up Movie, not Versus. There could he a short tussle. Batman could use every trick in the book, minus the Kryptonite, and it'd still be an entertaining fight to watch. Heck, the Hypersonic Gun would be enough to get Superman temporarily on his knees. Even if it's just for a few seconds. I just want to see that Batman, with some prep-time, can actually hurt Superman. Hurt, not defeat.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

Batman would never even make himself known to Superman until he's done his research and discovered a way to beat him.

That's kind of what makes Batman, Batman. He's always prepared.

Yes I like this idea. I like how they handled it in "World's Finest" from Superman TAS. See here:

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Batman pulling a surprise 'takedown' move on Superman, only for Superman to get up and hit him but not hurt him too much. I'd also like Batman to get the jump on Superman in various ways. I really liked the disappearing trick from TDK trilogy and it would be awesome if Batman can always sneak up on Superman as well as disappear suddenly. He is supposed to be the master of stealth among other things. Batman should have an array of gadgets and tools he can deploy against Superman. I'd like to think that Superman greatly underestimates Batman at first.

 

[robot]

Straight up fight?

I hope they don't do that... because anyway they try, it'll just be too much holes to swallow... everytime i see superman vs batman fighthing in the cartoons, i can't help buy laugh out loud.

Batman punches superman, and superman drops back.. now, how in the world can ANYONE punch superman have even have him bat an eye?? Bullets bounces off him like nothing...

And superman punches batman, and batman is still alive???? HAHAHAHAHAHAH...

and the whole Kryptonite argument?? Well, if superman knows batman carries around a kryptonite, why not just blow him away, or use his heat vision? or, throw something at him from afar?

Nothing works...

In order for this to work is if they somehow made the 'fight' more 'mental'.. nothing physical...

 

[Spider-Aziz]

This thread doesn't fail to remind me of Frank Miller's All Star Batman

 

[Skrilla31]

Personally I hope they never fight. I think it's pretty much accepted that Superman would destroy Batman within an inch of his bones. All you need to know is that Batman is ready for him. I would love a scene where the two of them are in a real heated debate and it looks like it may come to blows, but Superman's cooler head prevails and he walks away. And it's that moment that Batman knows he'll never ever have to fear this guy. That no matter what, Superman is never gonna use his power for the wrong reasons.

... but still, as Superman walks away... the camera pans down to Batman's hand holding a tiny shard of kryptonite as he tucks it away back in his utility belt.

 

[robot]

Personally I hope they never fight. I think it's pretty much accepted that Superman would destroy Batman within an inch of his bones. All you need to know is that Batman is ready for him. I would love a scene where the two of them are in a real heated debate and it looks like it may come to blows, but Superman's cooler head prevails and he walks away. And it's that moment that Batman knows he'll never ever have to fear this guy. That no matter what, Superman is never gonna use his power for the wrong reasons.

... but still, as Superman walks away... the camera pans down to Batman's hand holding a tiny shard of kryptonite as he tucks it away back in his utility belt.

I second this..

I could never stomach the 'illogic' in any of the fights between supe and batman in the cartoons...

 

[MrMaooz]

No.

 

[The Question]

Kryptonite will have to be in this movie. There's no other way of doing it. Supes is just too much of a powerhouse.

If you're lazy, yeah sure.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Kryptonite should not be first revealed by Batman, or Lex Luthor
What shot a shard of one planet far far away to planet Earth anyway?

 

[robot]

If you're lazy, yeah sure.

Never liked the idea of Kryptonite either...

There are so much Kryptonite out there.. you would think that every bad guy in the galaxy would be carrying one in his pouch by now.. and Supe's no match to ANY of them...

 

[Skrilla31]

Kryptonite is absolutely essential to the Superman mythology. It has to show up at some point.

 

[The Question]

Never liked the idea of Kryptonite either...

There are so much Kryptonite out there.. you would think that every bad guy in the galaxy would be carrying one in his pouch by now.. and Supe's no match to ANY of them...

Batman and Lex Luthor are both supposed to be smart. That's the thing that makes them able to do what they do. Finding a deus ex machina rock doesn't show off how smart you are, it shows off how lucky you are.

Kryptonite is absolutely essential to the Superman mythology. It has to show up at some point.

What makes it essential?

 

[GreenKToo]

Without reading through the thread i'll say, I have no idea.
If this is like the Batman from the comics or the JL series, then yes.
If its more like the Nolan Batman, then no.
If I had to guess, i'd say He'll probably be somewhere in the middle, so maybe??

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Batman and Lex Luthor are both supposed to be smart. That's the thing that makes them able to do what they do. Finding a deus ex machina rock doesn't show off how smart you are, it shows off how lucky you are.



What makes it essential?

Speaking of that Deus Ex crap
What made shards of his home planet green and glowing? And why harmful? I like the O'Neil idea of making Kryptonite on Earth inert

 

[Nathan]

Kryptonite is absolutely essential to the Superman mythology. It has to show up at some point.

We lost the trunks. We lost the red sun. We lost the Clark Kent/Superman and Lois dynamic. We can lose the Kryptonite.

Batman and Lex Luthor are both supposed to be smart. That's the thing that makes them able to do what they do. Finding a deus ex machina rock doesn't show off how smart you are, it shows off how lucky you are.

This. There's nothing super smart about holding a deus ex device in front of Superman's face. If you have to defeat Superman, do it like in red son. But instead of lamps that replicate red sun radiation, you build a chamber that replicates Krypton's atmosphere.

 

[The Question]

WThis. There's nothing super smart about holding a deus ex device in front of Superman's face. If you have to defeat Superman, do it like in red son. But instead of lamps that replicate red sun radiation, you build a chamber that replicates Krypton's atmosphere.

And before people say "that's the exact same thing as Kryptonite," to that I say no. It's established that Superman gets his powers from Earth's atmosphere/sun, that's part of his origin story. Cutting him off from that follows an internal story logic. If he has a power source, cutting him off from that power source is a smart thing to do. It isn't an extra thing that doesn't have to do with the story's internal logic that can defeat him just because. There's no reason, within the logic of the story, that Kryptonite should be able to hurt him other than the fact that that's what Kryptonite does. Using a Krypton-Chamber is smart. Using Kryptonite is lucky. There's a huge difference.

 

[Skrilla31]

Batman and Lex Luthor are both supposed to be smart. That's the thing that makes them able to do what they do. Finding a deus ex machina rock doesn't show off how smart you are, it shows off how lucky you are.

What makes it essential?

Well first of all, it's always been there. That in itself is reason enough to consider it essential. It's one of the elements that define Superman. What's Superman's weakness? Kryptonite. Everyone knows that. You can't just ignore it. Second, it's metaphorical. Everyone is vulnerable to kryptonite. Some people's kryptonite is money. To some it's sex. To some it's drugs. To some it's love. The fact is everyone has something that renders them powerless in it's presence.

Look at all the things Superman is capable of when he's not in the presence of kryptonite. He has superhuman strength. He could fly. He's a god among men. And yet this tiny shard of green rock has the power to humble him. It's not the fact that it's just a green rock, but what the green rock represents.

It makes you wonder what we would all be capable of if not for our weakness to kryptonite. Maybe we too could soar the skies.

 

[Nathan]

And if they'd do it like Red Son, they could pretty much quote Batman word for word.

Strange visitor from another Planet! Last son of a dying world!

Everything they needed to defeat you could be found in those two phrases, Superman!

All we had to do was create the right conditions!

 

[The Question]

Well first of all, it's always been there. That in itself is reason enough to consider it essential. It's one of the elements that define Superman. What's Superman's weakness? Kryptonite. Everyone knows that. You can't just ignore it.

I disagree with this entirely. You know what else is something that's always been there? The Clark/Superman/Lois two person love triangle. And that's really stupid and fairly sexist and the stories are better when Lois is in the know. "It's always been there" isn't a good reason to keep something.

Second, it's metaphorical. Everyone is vulnerable to kryptonite. Some people's kryptonite is money. To some it's sex. To some it's drugs. To some it's love. The fact is everyone has something that renders them powerless in it's presence.

Look at all the things Superman is capable of when he's not in the presence of kryptonite. He has superhuman strength. He could fly. He's a god among men. And yet this tiny shard of green rock has the power to humble him. It's not the fact that it's just a green rock, but what the green rock represents.

It makes you wonder what we would all be capable of if not for our weakness to kryptonite. Maybe we too could soar the skies.

It's a pretty lousy metaphor.

First of all, all the things you described as real weakness are a result of flaws in one's character. Superman isn't vulnerable to Kryptonite because he's weak willed or suffers from some kind of addiction, he's vulnerable to Kryptonite because he is, effectively, allergic to it. Kryptonite isn't like alcoholism, it's like being allergic to bee stings.

Second, Kryptonite doesn't actually call such things to mind when it appears in a story. When Superman is felled by a piece of Green K, people don't think to themselves "Think of all the things I could accomplish were it not for my own weaknesses." The emotions of the scene don't play out that way, it isn't Superman lamenting all the things Kryptonite holds him back from doing, it's Superman doubling over because he's suffering from radiation poisoning. It's an immediate physical danger, not a life halting shortcoming.

And thirdly, you can accomplish all of that emotional relevance by actually showing Superman being emotionally vulnerable. You don't need a metaphor to show that a person, despite their greatness, can be felled by their own shortcomings or their own human emotions. You can just actually do that with Superman, and it's way more effective when you do.

I'll end with what I've said many times on this subject: Make a list of the best ever Superman stories. Usually you'll see Kingdom Come, For All Seasons, Alan Moore's Superman works, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?, All Star Superman, and a few others on such a list. You'll find that in the vast majority of them, Kryptonite doesn't even show up, and in the ones where it does it's usually a very small role or it's used for something over than the standard "Superman gets sick in front of Green K" scene. Most of the greatest Superman stories can get by without Kryptonite, so it can't be that important.

 

[Skrilla31]

First of all, all the things you described as real weakness are a result of flaws in one's character. Superman isn't vulnerable to Kryptonite because he's weak willed or suffers from some kind of addiction, he's vulnerable to Kryptonite because he is, effectively, allergic to it. Kryptonite isn't like alcoholism, it's like being allergic to bee stings.

You're missing the point. The fact is kryptonite is something that renders Superman powerless. That's the most important thing. All the things Superman can do, all the things he's capable of... he can't do when he's in the presence of kryptonite.

Second, Kryptonite doesn't actually call such things to mind when it appears in a story. When Superman is felled by a piece of Green K, people don't think to themselves "Think of all the things I could accomplish were it not for my own weaknesses." The emotions of the scene don't play out that way, it isn't Superman lamenting all the things Kryptonite holds him back from doing, it's Superman doubling over because he's suffering from radiation poisoning. It's an immediate physical danger, not a life halting shortcoming.

It's a storytelling device used to humble the character, pure and simple. It's his weakness. He's a god among men who can do anything he wants and yet he's powerless in the presence of a green rock. It's irony at it's finest. By removing that part of the equation from the mythology, you essentially lose something. It isn't as interesting anymore.

And thirdly, you can accomplish all of that emotional relevance by actually showing Superman being emotionally vulnerable. You don't need a metaphor to show that a person, despite their greatness, can be felled by their own shortcomings or their own human emotions. You can just actually do that with Superman, and it's way more effective when you do.

I agree with the second part. Bringing Superman to his knees with kryptonite is one thing, bringing him to his knees without having to use kryptonite is far more challenging.

But that still doesn't justify the use of ignoring one of the basic facets of the character's foundation.

I'll end with what I've said many times on this subject: Make a list of the best ever Superman stories. Usually you'll see Kingdom Come, For All Seasons, Alan Moore's Superman works, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?, All Star Superman, and a few others on such a list. You'll find that in the vast majority of them, Kryptonite doesn't even show up, and in the ones where it does it's usually a very small role or it's used for something over than the standard "Superman gets sick in front of Green K" scene. Most of the greatest Superman stories can get by without Kryptonite, so it can't be that important.

Just because it doesn't show up, it doesn't mean it isn't there. The fact is in all of those stories, it's generally accepted that kryptonite is still a "thing" and that it can hurt Superman. Those are stories are already built upon that concept.

The film universe is something entirely different altogether. By ignoring, by not introducing or alluding to it... you're implying it doesn't exist. And I'm sorry, but a Superman universe in which kryptonite doesn't exist... or a universe that exists in which kryptonite isn't an established concept... is sacrilege.

 

[Nathan]

You're missing the point. The fact is kryptonite is something that renders Superman powerless. That's the most important thing. All the things Superman can do, all the things he's capable of... he can't do when he's in the presence of kryptonite.

It's a storytelling device used to humble the character, pure and simple. It's his weakness. He's a god among men who can do anything he wants and yet he's powerless in the presence of a green rock. It's irony at it's finest. By removing that part of the equation from the mythology, you essentially lose something. It isn't as interesting anymore.

Krypton. Chamber. If Kryptonite were his one and only weakness, it'd be a complete different story. But the fact the remains that there is another plausible way of robbing Superman of his powers. And it's a lot more interesting to boot.

I agree with the second part. Bringing Superman to his knees with kryptonite is one thing, bringing him to his knees without having to use kryptonite is far more challenging.

But that still doesn't justify the use of ignoring one of the basic facets of the character's foundation.

So was Kryption's red sun. They got rid of that in MOS.

Just because it doesn't show up, it doesn't mean it isn't there. The fact is in all of those stories, it's generally accepted that kryptonite is still a "thing" and that it can hurt Superman. Those are stories are already built upon that concept.

The film universe is something entirely different altogether. By ignoring, by not introducing or alluding to it... you're implying it doesn't exist. And I'm sorry, but a Superman universe in which kryptonite doesn't exist... or a universe that exists in which kryptonite isn't an established concept... is sacrilege.

To that I say, good! If a Kryptonite-less Superman universe is sacrilege, than I hope Snyder and co. keep sacriliging this new established DC Universe some more.

 

[The Question]

You're missing the point. The fact is kryptonite is something that renders Superman powerless. That's the most important thing. All the things Superman can do, all the things he's capable of... he can't do when he's in the presence of kryptonite.

I'm not missing the point. You made a point that one reason Kryptonite is essential is because it's always been there. I was arguing against that particular point.

It's a storytelling device used to humble the character, pure and simple. It's his weakness. He's a god among men who can do anything he wants and yet he's powerless in the presence of a green rock. It's irony at it's finest. By removing that part of the equation from the mythology, you essentially lose something. It isn't as interesting anymore.

But it's not played for irony. It's never used to make any kind of point or say anything meaningful. It's used as a plot device by writers who don't want to think of an inventive way to challenge the character. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the character because it isn't something real or relatable, it's a plot device. You can accomplish the same thing with something a lot more real and meaningful to the audience, and that's his emotional weakness. A god among men being able to be brought down by a green rock may be irony, but a god among men who's still vulnerable to human emotional weakness is meaningful irony. A god among men who is burdened by the fact that, even with all of his strength, he can't save everyone or fix everything, that's compelling irony. And if you throw in other, stronger super powered opponents or supernatural threats, then you have god among men who comes up against threats that are even to large for him to face easily, or even necessarily survive, and that's exciting irony. That's what's interesting.

And what's worse, it's an absolute crutch. It causes every conflict to play out the same way: Superman dominates until someone whips out a glowing green rock. It makes the mythology formulaic, and it takes away opportunities to find meaning in the conflict and obstacles in the story. If you find other ways, better ways, more inventive ways of creating a threat for Superman or giving him obstacles he can't easily over come, ways that are rooted in the conflicts and themes of the story, then you get a much more meaningful and engaging conflict.

All in all, all fo the things you describe Kryptonite bringing to the mythology can be accomplished by other, better things that's don't run the risk of deflating the tension and turning the stories into a predictable formula.

I agree with the second part. Bringing Superman to his knees with kryptonite is one thing, bringing him to his knees without having to use kryptonite is far more challenging.

It's also better storytelling.

But that still doesn't justify the use of ignoring one of the basic facets of the character's foundation.

It's not a basic facet of the character's foundation. You can still do great Superman stories without Kryptonite. I mentioned several.

Just because it doesn't show up, it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Actually it does. Not showing up and not being there are synonyms.

The fact is in all of those stories, it's generally accepted that kryptonite is still a "thing" and that it can hurt Superman. Those are stories are already built upon that concept.

Except they're not built upon those concepts. Those stories would be exactly the same wether Kryptnote was ever a thing in the Superman mythos or not. Kingdom Come would play out the same way. All Star Superman would play out the same way. For The Man Who Has Everything would play out the same way. What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? would play out the same way. For All Seasons would play out the same way. That means that Kryptonite does not matter in those stories. Which suggests, to me, that Kryptonite doesn't matter at all.

The film universe is something entirely different altogether. By ignoring, by not introducing or alluding to it... you're implying it doesn't exist. And I'm sorry, but a Superman universe in which kryptonite doesn't exist... or a universe that exists in which kryptonite isn't an established concept... is sacrilege.

Are you arguing to have Kryptonite because it makes the story better or because it's a thing that's always been there?

I mean, think of all of the other elements of the Superman mythos that were key structural elements of how that mythos functioned that we did away with and we were better off for it. The two person love triangle springs immediately to mind.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

This. There's nothing super smart about holding a deus ex device in front of Superman's face. If you have to defeat Superman, do it like in red son. But instead of lamps that replicate red sun radiation, you build a chamber that replicates Krypton's atmosphere.

my thought as well.

 

[Paradox1]

I'd like to see them fight and I'd like to see Batman win somehow because he's the god damn Batman. If not that at least a Appollo Creed vs Rocky moment when it ends in a tie but you see each man have their moments.