The Dark Knight "Because you were the best of us!" Really?

[Ardent15]

Wayne, as Batman, deliver this line to Harvey Dent.

Is this really true? Wayne had suffered horrific tragedy in his past at the hands of criminals, and he was hurt just as badly by Rachel's death as Harvey was.

Yet the Joker even admits that Batman is "truly incorruptible". It's obvious that Wayne can endure more than Dent, isn't it?

Now, maybe Dent was the most idealistic of Gordon, Dent, and Batman, but that's something different IMO.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

He was the one who was supposed to make gotham believe in being a safe place again. He was the "white knight", someone, who as bruce said could be a hero, sans a mask.

and I wouldn't say bruce can endure more. He just decides to pump criminals into a pulp, while all harvey wants is his rachel back

 

[up2nogood316]

Rachel being picked off pretty much finished off Harvey, it utterly destroyed him, the love of his life. He worked with her, They seemed to be in eachothers company 24/7 ("i think someone would notice if i was sneaking out every night,etc"). She was everything to him.

I know people will argue she meant the same to bruce, but at this time... Did she? He missed her and wanted her BUT.. They seemed to have drifted apart a bit. Him stalking her on the bat cave computer showed he OF COURSE still had a flame for her (you always do for your first true love dont u :P lol), but Rachel did seem to be at least TRYING to move on with Harvey. They obviously were close. They worked together, Bruce was definetly not with her 24/7 at this time. Her death destroyed Harvey more than Bruce. I wonder if the joker had killed Alfred, that would probably push Bruce/batman over the edge, in the way Rachels death pushed harvey too far...?

 

[The Joker]

Harvey was the hero with a face that Gotham needed. He didn't hide behind a mask from the criminals or the public. He didn't fake his death to protect his family. He faced everything head on.

In the eyes of the public he was the best. Batman was a vigilante. Gordon was just another Cop.

 

[Drz]

In the 3rd film Bruce can try and become more of a White Knight himself. Buying old factories for example so people can have more jobs, while there would be 0 profit for his own company, but it would give hope to Gotham.

God damn do i love Dini's Batman: War on Crime.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

Because he was achieving change through clear legitimate methods without a mask or vigilantisim. The joker knew he had to systematically destroy him for Gotham to go downhill. Driving dent insane was jokers ultimate plan.

 

[Bats]

What Joker (the poster) said and also because Gordon was practically forced to work with corrupt cops. Dent wouldn't put up with that.

 

[Brother Jack]

Harvey was the hero with a face that Gotham needed. He didn't hide behind a mask from the criminals or the public. He didn't fake his death to protect his family. He faced everything head on.

He did lie about being Batman though, but I doubt many people actually believed that to be true (despite what Joker says).

While it is true that Dent is "the best of them" in the eyes of the public, there is definite irony in that line. Remember Bruce also lost his love when Rachel died, and in fact he's lost more than Harvey could imagine. And yet, he does not fall. He shoulders all the guilt and all the punishment, and endures.

 

[The Joker]

He did lie about being Batman though, but I doubt many people actually believed that to be true (despite what Joker says).

But the City loved him for that because they caught the Joker.

"Mr Dent, Mr Dent, how does it feel to be the biggest hero in Gotham?"

 

[SuperFerret]

He did lie about being Batman though, but I doubt many people actually believed that to be true (despite what Joker says).

While it is true that Dent is "the best of them" in the eyes of the public, there is definite irony in that line. Remember Bruce also lost his love when Rachel died, and in fact he's lost more than Harvey could imagine. And yet, he does not fall. He shoulders all the guilt and all the punishment, and endures.

It's easy to take on more stress if you relieve it by dressing up like an S&M reject and beat people up on a nightly basis.

 

[Brother Jack]

I guess, but still, by the end of TDK Bruce has lost pretty much everything. All he has is Batman and even then Batman is now hated by the public and police.

But the City loved him for that because they caught the Joker.

"Mr Dent, Mr Dent, how does it feel to be the biggest hero in Gotham?"

True.

 

[Travesty]

Harvey was the hero with a face that Gotham needed. He didn't hide behind a mask from the criminals or the public. He didn't fake his death to protect his family. He faced everything head on.

In the eyes of the public he was the best. Batman was a vigilante. Gordon was just another Cop.

That's about the best answer you'll find.

 

[bgates87]

In the context of the movie it doesn't really matter who was the better of the three- Harvey had a gun pointed at a child's head, Batman was going to tell him whatever he wanted to hear.

 

[Travesty]

In the context of the movie it doesn't really matter who was the better of the three- Harvey had a gun pointed at a child's head, Batman was going to tell him whatever he wanted to hear.

I don't even know where you're going with this? The thread asks a specific purpose, within, is a specific quote from the movie, which was directed towards Harvey, before he became Two-Face.

 

[bgates87]

I don't even know where you're going with this? The thread asks a specific purpose, within, is a specific quote from the movie, which was directed towards Harvey, before he became Two-Face.

The quote in question comes from the final scene of the movie when Two-Face has kidnapped Gordon's family:

Batman: What happened to Rachel wasn't chance. We decided to act! We three!
Two-Face: Then why was it me who was the only one who lost everything?
Batman: It wasn't.
Two-Face: The Joker chose ME!
Batman: Because you were the best of us! He wanted to prove that even someone as good as you could fall.
Two-Face: And he was right.

I'm saying that it's possible that after Harvey became Two-Face Batman didn't believe he was the best of them anymore, but in that situation he told him he was anyways because he was trying to convince Two-Face that he didn't need to kill anyone.

 

[Travesty]

The quote in question comes from the final scene of the movie when Two-Face has kidnapped Gordon's family

Of course that was after he became Two-Face, but the question was when we was Harvey, hence "you were the best of us". Of course the question comes form his past, and is totally true. I was saying that statement was derived before Harvey was Two-Face. Why do you think Batman stopped Harvey when he was threatening one of Joker's thugs in the alley? He basically gave him the same speech there.

I'm saying that it's possible that after Harvey became Two-Face Batman didn't believe he was the best of them anymore, but in that situation he told him he was anyways because he was trying to convince Two-Face that he didn't need to kill anyone.

I disagree. Look at Joker's(SHH member's) comment above.

 

[Mr. Joker Risin']

In the context of the movie it doesn't really matter who was the better of the three- Harvey had a gun pointed at a child's head, Batman was going to tell him whatever he wanted to hear.

This. I was just about to say this.

Of course that was after he became Two-Face, but the question was when we was Harvey, hence "you were the best of us". Of course the question comes form his past, and is totally true. I was saying that statement was derived before Harvey was Two-Face. Why do you think Batman stopped Harvey when he was threatening one of Joker's thugs in the alley? He basically gave him the same speech there.

I think you're missing the point. Before becoming Two-Face, Batman never told Harvey, "You ARE the best of us." If he had, then your argument would be valid, but he only said "you were the best of us", while they were in a hostage situation. Batman was trying to talk Harvey out of shooting the kid. Doesn't necessarily mean what he said was true or false, so really there's no point in this topic.

Now if you're just taking the line out of context and discussing it, then by all means, proceed

 

[Travesty]

T

I think you're missing the point. Before becoming Two-Face, Batman never told Harvey, "You ARE the best of us." If he had, then your argument would be valid, but he only said "you were the best of us", while they were in a hostage situation. Batman was trying to talk Harvey out of shooting the kid. Doesn't necessarily mean what he said was true or false, so really there's no point in this topic.

But that was the entire point with Bruce Wayne. He thought he was the best man for the job, as he even shared his feelings with Rachel at the dinner party, and why he was going to retire Batman. That was a major point in the movie! Yes, Batman was trying to talk Two-Face out of shooting the kid, but that doesn't mean he didn't mean it, as it was a major theme throughout the ENTIRE movie. And Batman did tell Harvey what he thought of him, when Harvey had a gun to Thomas Shifts face in the alley, when he said, "You're the symbol of hope I can never be". Meaning: he is a better hero for Gotham, even more then Batman himself.

 

[theultimateqpa]

It's obvious that Wayne can endure more than Dent, isn't it?

Actually if You dig deeper into the movies it suddenly doesnt seem so obvious. Remember Batman Begins, young Wayne was totaly lost as a human, wrecked with anger and despair to such an extent that he was in fact ready to kill the murderer of his parents. The only thing that stopepd him was pure chance(Falcone hired hitman). What happend after that? Rachel and other people around Bruce capitalised on that fortunate turn of events, and made him realise the diffrence between justice and personal vandetta, which is one of the first movies themes. They directed him back on the right track. In TDK on the other hand we have very similar situation in the case of Dent(further fueling duality as one of TDK main reocurring themes). He is also struck by personal tragedy(death of Rachel) but unlike Wayne, there is nobody, absolutely nobody out there to help him get through this, to help him deal with it. What he gets instead? Intead he is left alone in a hospital with half his face burned-off, wrecked by pain and anger, surrounded by people that he blames for his tragedy, and if that wasnt bad enough instead of Rachel or Alfred to help him out, he get Joker leaning over hisbed, playing machiavelli and steering him on the way of madness. Its exactly the same thing as it was with Bruce, but with diffrent much more unfortunate ending. The paths of these two took on a diffrent direction in the end, and I dont think its safe to say that one was better then the other.

 

[El Payaso]

Wayne, as Batman, deliver this line to Harvey Dent.

Is this really true?

No, it is just Bruce Wayne/Batman's opinion. And everyone MUST consider that.

 

[metalhead_dave]

The joker knew he had to systematically destroy him for Gotham to go downhill. Driving dent insane was jokers ultimate plan.

No it wasn't. If it was, then the whole chase scene would NOT make sense, neither would trapping Dent next to a ticking time bomb surrounded by barrells of gasoline. Joker's ultimate goal was to cause as much chaos until the city broke. Turning Dent, while a victory, was more of taking advantage of an open oppertunity than the cusp of his grand plan.

I feel that in TDK, Bruce and Harvey were kind of direct opposite/mirror images of each other.

Bruce needs to be Batman and attacks crime from the shadows, Harvey fights crime legitmatley, however Bruce feels Gotham needs Harvey because they need a legitmate symbol and Harvey feels Gotham needs Batman because the cops are useless and Batman is completely pure and doesn't compromise.

When Rachael is killed, Bruce grieves pretty hard in that scene with Alfred, but then he is able to pick himself up and stop the Joker. Dent goes ballistic, blames everyone around him and starts killing everyone in his path(with a little help from the Joker).

But the first paragraph is the reason why Bruce said that Harvey was the best of them.

 

[ultimatefan]

I think he meant Harvey was the most uncompromised of them. He didn´t wear a mask. He didn´t accept people under investigation the way Gordon did. Bruce understands his rage, he went through a similar thing, he almost became a "coward with a gun" in Begins, if fate hadn´t interferred and Rachel hadn´t opened his eyes.

 

[Panthro]

I think he meant Harvey was the most uncompromised of them. He didn´t wear a mask. He didn´t accept people under investigation the way Gordon did. Bruce understands his rage, he went through a similar thing, he almost became a "coward with a gun" in Begins, if fate hadn´t interferred and Rachel hadn´t opened his eyes.

I agree with this.

 

[ultimatefan]

Thanks, yeah, the theme of revenge and heroes being tempted by darkness is a constant element of the Batman mythos.

 

[Avengers-Report]

Wayne, as Batman, deliver this line to Harvey Dent.

Is this really true? Wayne had suffered horrific tragedy in his past at the hands of criminals, and he was hurt just as badly by Rachel's death as Harvey was.

Yet the Joker even admits that Batman is "truly incorruptible". It's obvious that Wayne can endure more than Dent, isn't it?

Now, maybe Dent was the most idealistic of Gordon, Dent, and Batman, but that's something different IMO.

Batman can never be what Dent was because Dent was doing it the right way. He was not a vigilante, he was standing up to people in court, etc...

Batman is just a powerful symbol used to strike fear into crime, but it can never prevent it. Gotham needed a hero that had a face, aka Harvey Dent