The Dark Knight What was the WEAKEST portrayal of a comic character in TDK

[Spider-ManHero12]

Personally, I love the dialogue in comic book movies. Aunt May's speech? It was inspiring and true, tbh. It's like it rang a bell in Peter's head, and I don't see where in gods name it came off as cheesy. I think the monologues are there to show us who this character is. Aunt May was basicall describing th hero Spider-Man is/could be when she was talking to Peter in the backyard. Personally, if that type of dialogue wasn' there, I don't think cahracters like Spider-Man would have had as much of an impact on the audience and people wouldn't have connected as well. It was perfect, IMO.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Yeah, the use of fear all time was annoying. But even there it wasn't so much the using of comic book speeches, but the repetitive use of the same word over and over which even comic books don't do.

It was like Nolan and Goyer were afraid we'd forget what the theme was so they kept reminding us every two minutes.

That is very true...guess its a good thing Nolan learned that lesson and didn't say escalation every eight seconds in TDK

 

[truth]

Yeah, Begins dialogue was not great but TDK's was not that much better either.
People in TDK may not have been saying a buzz word, but they kept on giving us exposition, making the characters VERY unrealistic and like puppets for Nolan's lament on morality and madness and so forth.

Why can't people take note off the great Superman movie by Mario Godfather Puzo. No long over-wrought speeches, it's a film with characters who STICK to their characters and then you can take out what the film teaches you about morality, evil and so forth.

 

[Travesty]

That is very true...guess its a good thing Nolan learned that lesson and didn't say escalation every eight seconds in TDK

No, but he can say how Harvey is Gotham's White Knight/"best of us" every eight seconds.

 

[truth]

No, but he can say how Harvey is Gotham's White Knight/"best of us" every eight seconds.

Quote For Truth!!!!

That fact was rammed down our throats EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Yes, we get it. He is sooooo good, so noble, so moral, just so that we can be so shocked when he turns...BAD!

 

[The Joker]

Personally, I love the dialogue in comic book movies. Aunt May's speech? It was inspiring and true, tbh. It's like it rang a bell in Peter's head, and I don't see where in gods name it came off as cheesy. I think the monologues are there to show us who this character is. Aunt May was basicall describing th hero Spider-Man is/could be when she was talking to Peter in the backyard. Personally, if that type of dialogue wasn' there, I don't think cahracters like Spider-Man would have had as much of an impact on the audience and people wouldn't have connected as well. It was perfect, IMO.

Exactly

That is very true...guess its a good thing Nolan learned that lesson and didn't say escalation every eight seconds in TDK

LOL, yes the dialogue did improve vastly in the sequel with no Goyer working the dialogue.

No, but he can say how Harvey is Gotham's White Knight/"best of us" every eight seconds.

More hyperbole, Trav?

Gordon: "You don't have to sell me Dent. We all know you're Gotham's white knight"

Batman: "Because you were the best of us. He wanted to prove that someone as good as you could fall"

Unless I'm missing something, where else was the White Knight/best of us line used?

 

[Travesty]

More hyperbole, Trav?

Gordon: "You don't have to sell me Dent. We all know you're Gotham's white knight"

Batman: "Because you were the best of us. He wanted to prove that someone as good as you could fall"

Unless I'm missing something, where else was the White Knight/best of us line used?

Nope, I can give you much more than that. I've gotta jet and do an open mic, so I may be back later tonight.

I think you're forgetting Bruce, Rachel, The Mayor, another Gordon, The Joker, etc...

 

[Fudgie]

Quote For Truth!!!!

That fact was rammed down our throats EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Except it wasnt. Oh yeah and your Superman movie mr truth

Jor-El: You will travel far, my little Kal-El. But we will never leave you... even in the face of our death. The richness of our lives shall be yours. All that I have, all that I've learned, everything I feel... all this, and more, I... I bequeath you, my son. You will carry me inside you, all the days of your life. You will make my strength your own, and see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father, and the father the son. This is all I... all I can send you, Kal-El.

General Zod: Join us. You have been known to disagree with the Council before. Yours could become an important voice in the new order, second only to my own! I offer you a chance for greatness, Jor-El! Take it! Join us!... You *will* bow down before me, Jor-El. I swear it! No matter that it takes an eternity, you *will* bow down before me! Both you, and then one day, your heirs!

Jonathan Kent: No, no. Now, you listen to me. When you first came to us, we thought people would come and take you away because, when they found out, you know, the things you could do... and that worried us a lot. But then a man gets older, and he starts thinking differently and things get very clear. And one thing I do know, son, and that is you are here for a *reason*. I don't know whose reason, or whatever the reason is... Maybe it's because... uh... I don't know. But I do know one thing. It's *not* to score touchdowns. Huh?

Lois Lane: Can you read my mind? Do you know what it is that you do to me? I don't know who you are. Just a friend from another star. Here I am, like a kid out of school. Holding hands with a god. I'm a fool. Will you look at me? Quivering. Like a little girl, shivering. You can see right through me. Can you read my mind? Can you picture the things I'm thinking of? Wondering why you are... all the wonderful things you are. You can fly. You belong in the sky. You and I... could belong to each other. If you need a friend... I'm the one to fly to. If you need to be loved... here I am. Read my mind.

Its full of monlogue stuff.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

there was the joker thing, "I took gothams white knight and brought him down to our level"

and....I dont think theres anything else.

 

[The Joker]

there was the joker thing, "I took gothams white knight and brought him down to our level"

and....I dont think theres anything else.

For shame, how did I miss a Joker quote? But yeah, I don't recall Bruce, the Mayor, or Rachel ever using those lines.

 

[truth]

Except it wasnt. Oh yeah and your Superman movie mr truth

Jor-El: You will travel far, my little Kal-El. But we will never leave you... even in the face of our death. The richness of our lives shall be yours. All that I have, all that I've learned, everything I feel... all this, and more, I... I bequeath you, my son. You will carry me inside you, all the days of your life. You will make my strength your own, and see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father, and the father the son. This is all I... all I can send you, Kal-El.

General Zod: Join us. You have been known to disagree with the Council before. Yours could become an important voice in the new order, second only to my own! I offer you a chance for greatness, Jor-El! Take it! Join us!... You *will* bow down before me, Jor-El. I swear it! No matter that it takes an eternity, you *will* bow down before me! Both you, and then one day, your heirs!

Jonathan Kent: No, no. Now, you listen to me. When you first came to us, we thought people would come and take you away because, when they found out, you know, the things you could do... and that worried us a lot. But then a man gets older, and he starts thinking differently and things get very clear. And one thing I do know, son, and that is you are here for a *reason*. I don't know whose reason, or whatever the reason is... Maybe it's because... uh... I don't know. But I do know one thing. It's *not* to score touchdowns. Huh?

Lois Lane: Can you read my mind? Do you know what it is that you do to me? I don't know who you are. Just a friend from another star. Here I am, like a kid out of school. Holding hands with a god. I'm a fool. Will you look at me? Quivering. Like a little girl, shivering. You can see right through me. Can you read my mind? Can you picture the things I'm thinking of? Wondering why you are... all the wonderful things you are. You can fly. You belong in the sky. You and I... could belong to each other. If you need a friend... I'm the one to fly to. If you need to be loved... here I am. Read my mind.

Its full of monlogue stuff.

Erm...and you want to compare those lines to: "Sometimes people deserve more, sometimes people deserve, SOMETIMES people deserve"

"How can we live in INDECENT (in case you missed it) times!"

That is spoon-feeding.

The Jor-El quote is a father talking to his son, advising him...NOT a speech.

Jonathan Kent, a surrogate (is this the right word???) father talking to his adopted son and advising him...NOT A SPEECH.

Zod, was shouting and making his point knowing what would happen to him...NOT A SPEECH

Lois Lane, that was done as a voice-over and were her thoughts and as the words show, was intended to be poetic...NOT A SPEECH.

Remember guys, you are comparing a screenplay by MARIO PUZO to...Nolan?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I find it funny that people keep defending bad dialogue with more bad dialogue. You can probably give Superman a pass because Jor-El was a hologram, and used specifically as an exposition device as he has always been in Superman. He shows up specifically to give little tibits about Krypton's history and whatnot. Good dialogue sounds like people talking, and since the assumption is that Batman or anyone else is a person you want to keep the dialogue light. People don't speak in long monologues, and when they do it's usually because someone prompted them to. People don't dominate a conversation, unless they're some kind of f***. Also, people really shouldn't vocalize the theme of a movie, that's just plain awful. Characters don't realize they're in a movie, they do things, but if there is a theme in what they do, they themselves wouldn't be aware of this. Batman may set out to be Batman, but he doesn't need to offer the audience a grand explanation as to why, or evacuate his thoughts on heroics and fear.

 

[Fudgie]

Erm...and you want to compare those lines to: "Sometimes people deserve more, sometimes people deserve, SOMETIMES people deserve"

Yeah I can. I just did. Its the same

"How can we live in INDECENT (in case you missed it) times!"

Theres no such line in the flick. Its 'You though we could be decent men in an indecent time'

The Jor-El quote is a father talking to his son, advising him...NOT a speech.

Its advice in the form of a speech. Dont split hairs mr truth.

Jonathan Kent, a surrogate (is this the right word???) father talking to his adopted son and advising him...NOT A SPEECH.

Zod, was shouting and making his point knowing what would happen to him...NOT A SPEECH

Lois Lane, that was done as a voice-over and were her thoughts and as the words show, was intended to be poetic...NOT A SPEECH.

They are all speeches. The content of them doesnt change what they are. They are all drawn out monlogues of dialogue spoken to the audience.

Remember guys, you are comparing a screenplay by MARIO PUZO to...Nolan?

Yeah we are. You think Puzo is exempt from writing comic book speeches just cos he wrote the Godfather? You aint gonna find a comic book flick that doesnt have speechy dialogue in it. Doesnt exist. Superman included mr truth.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Iron Man's dialogue was pretty good. X-Men and X2 had better than average scripts. Actually Batman's script is very good. Watchmen's dialogue is very good, and it does an interesting way of fusing in the Rorshach journal.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Personally, I love the dialogue in comic book movies. Aunt May's speech? It was inspiring and true, tbh. It's like it rang a bell in Peter's head, and I don't see where in gods name it came off as cheesy. I think the monologues are there to show us who this character is. Aunt May was basicall describing th hero Spider-Man is/could be when she was talking to Peter in the backyard. Personally, if that type of dialogue wasn' there, I don't think cahracters like Spider-Man would have had as much of an impact on the audience and people wouldn't have connected as well. It was perfect, IMO.

I agree with you. These expositionary monologues really help make a comic book movie feel like a comic book come to life, and I really love that.

Not all the dialogue works sometimes. Green Goblin's 'We'll meet again, Spider-Man' is going a bit too far even for comic book villain standards.

 

[truth]

I find it funny that people keep defending bad dialogue with more bad dialogue. You can probably give Superman a pass because Jor-El was a hologram, and used specifically as an exposition device as he has always been in Superman. He shows up specifically to give little tibits about Krypton's history and whatnot. Good dialogue sounds like people talking, and since the assumption is that Batman or anyone else is a person you want to keep the dialogue light. People don't speak in long monologues, and when they do it's usually because someone prompted them to. People don't dominate a conversation, unless they're some kind of f***. Also, people really shouldn't vocalize the theme of a movie, that's just plain awful. Characters don't realize they're in a movie, they do things, but if there is a theme in what they do, they themselves wouldn't be aware of this. Batman may set out to be Batman, but he doesn't need to offer the audience a grand explanation as to why, or evacuate his thoughts on heroics and fear.

Hit the nail on the head. Characters should not be making any comments about themes in the movie or what it's about.

That's what I am trying to get across.

In Superman, no character is saying anything that relates to what the film is about or it's themes. The manner in which Donner handles it, especially with Jor-El, is more abstract. So it isn't a guy standing with a bat costume saying: "Sometimes the truth isn't good enough"

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Hit the nail on the head. Characters should not be making any comments about themes in the movie or what it's about.

That's what I am trying to get across.

In Superman, no character is saying anything that relates to what the film is about or it's themes. The manner in which Donner handles it, especially with Jor-El, is more abstract. So it isn't a guy standing with a bat costume saying: "Sometimes the truth isn't good enough"

Precisely. There are a lot of great sci-fi and actions movies with good dialogue. Alien by Ridley Scott and Aliens by James Cameron are prime examples (actually most of Cameron's films have good dialogue). The characters in Aliens don't sit around talking about "rape", "claustrophobia" or "the unknown", they talk about things that are very real to them. In Alien most of the characters have an ongoing back and forth about company shares, and express general confusion about the mission, but they never slip into monologues. This feeds the atmosphere because the audience becomes as intrigued about the mission as the crew already is, without any mention of fear or paranoia, despite the overwhelming mood of dread which follows them. In Aliens Burke doesn't sit around and yak about how much he likes money, but it's apparent from the opinion he takes on things that he is financially motivated. These two movies are great examples on great dialogue in mainstream films. Writing good dialogue is much more about the effective use of silence and ambient conversation than anything else.

 

[truth]

And I think that was where TDK failed. No character, apart from Gordon to an extent, felt real. They were all spewing some sort of great meaning to us. There were hardly any scenes were guys were just...talking. Were you got to know about characters, nothing felt organic.

 

[Ryan]

I have to agree with that. Alot of tdk verged on preachy as if they felt the need to properly explain and lay everything out for people in lie of not having a backstory to joker

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Gordon, only when he gave that "The hero the city deserves, not the one it needs" crap
WTF man?!

 

[HisMagicTrick]

I thought that they were all brilliant (yes, I know I'm a bit biased when it comes to this movie), but if any of the character's needs choosing I went with Scarecrow. Basically all of them stayed [almost] true to the comics, with Nolan's twist added. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Unfortunately I'm unable to read the comics often, so I'm basing this on just a few I've read.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

The villains:

The Joker: Great acting, great villain. But not a great Joker IMHO. I don't like the grungy look, I don't like the make-up and I was missing some kind of gimmicks. What I also didn't like: everything the Joker planned worked out perfectly.

Harvey Dent / Two-Face: The "white knight" stuff didn't fit Harvey Dent. It also made his transformation unbelievable. And I hate it when they kill off famous villains like him.

Scarecrow: Though very different from the comics I liked his portrayal in Batman Begins. But just when he completely turned from Dr Crane to Scarecrow (I really liked his look with the straitjacket) he was took out by Rachel. His cameo in TDK was lame, too.

Ra's al Ghul: I really liked his portrayal though it was different from comics as well. Great acting, too.

And I wish Mr Zsasz had more like a small cameo in Begins.


So, here's my ranking of the major villains:

1) Ra's al Ghul
2) Scarecrow
3) The Joker
4) Two-Face

 

[Ultra Lantern]

Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow