Ben Affleck or Christian Bale?

[kit1982]

Eh, I loved Batfleck and really enjoyed the film but this just seems akin to a Gary Oldman or Pat Hingle debate.

 

[DACrowe]

Kevin Smith agrees with me that Batfleck was disappointing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uUDSlWS8WY

He likes his friend Ben's performance but he says the characterization for Batman is way off.

For Smith to say that (someone close to WB and Ben), is something.

Once fanboys are done 'Phantom Menacing' BVS, they'll see it.

Wow, I did not expect him to be so blunt or negative about the film considering his friendship with Affleck (and that he was shilling for the movie just a few months ago). But I respect his honesty.

 

[hildenburg]

Let us not try to rationalize this is about finding a deeper truth for the character.

Why not? It's something that the movie explores, whether we like it or not.

 

[DKDetective]

Good to hear



You can make any bastardized version of a character make sense within the context of a movie you write for that version. That's the whole point, you write a story for your version of a character. But making sense, and being a good and true representation of said character they're based on are two different things.

Batfleck was killing criminals needlessly, also branding them and supposedly having them set up to be killed in jail by doing that. That's not Batman. No matter how low he gets, no matter what losses he's suffered, he would never let himself go that far because he knows if he does he'll never come back.

That's why his characterization is way off.

Bingo. Even Frank Miller realized that when he wrote TDKR. As grim, cruel, and disillusioned as the TDKR version of the character was, he was still essentially Batman and kept to his one-rule. The character was bent to suit the story and explore his limits, but not broken. This Batman was broken.

 

[tek]

i think Bale's role had the advantage of his solo film so the comparison is difficult. I liked Affleck's rage and attitude. Ledger/TDK to me made the Nolan trilogy commercially and partially Batman as a character's resurgence. The Batman/Joker writing in TDK will be hard to beat irrespective of the actors involved. But if Affleck had been in TDK with ledger I think that dynamic may have been slightly better in terms of charisma. tough call. many aspects

 

[KnuckleBomb]

Affleck no questions asked and no its not a phase I just couldn;t stand Bale and Ben is just getting started

 

[TDK elbowstrike]

I like that Ben's Batman can weoponize a Kryptonite spear on his own. Shows more technical skill than most of what BaleBat did. Batfleck also weoponized tons of Kryptonite grenades. No Lucius Fox needed. Alfred can handle the armor without Fox too.

 

[The Joker]

I like that Ben's Batman can weoponize a Kryptonite spear on his own. Shows more technical skill than most of what BaleBat did. Batfleck also weoponized tons of Kryptonite grenades. No Lucius Fox needed. Alfred can handle the armor without Fox too.

Sticking some kryptonite on a spear, and inside some grenades, is nowhere near the tech know how as something like building a whole sonar machine that can spy on the entire city.

 

[Knight-Tale]

He also built those sonic canons that he used to attack supes when he lands on the ground.
I don't think any of Balebats tech is that impressive when I look at the whole trilogy.

Its safe to say Alfred and Bruce in this movie even when they are acting like "criminals" are smarter and more technically savvy than Balebats and Kainfred
I mean I like detective Batman as well and he did get to display more opportunities for that facet in the Nolan movies but a lot of it is in conjunction with the help of others whereas this Batman shows he can make his own technology and is a capable computer hacker and he does all his investigative work on his own.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Kevin Smith agrees with me that Batfleck was disappointing.

He likes his friend Ben's performance but he says the characterization for Batman is way off.

For Smith to say that (someone close to WB and Ben), is something.

Once fanboys are done 'Phantom Menacing' BVS, they'll see it.

Kevin Smith is right. Affleck give good acting job but his Batman is terrible.

Am I misremembering things? What detective work did Bruce do in BvS?

The only thing I remember is stealing data from infiltrating LexCorp during the party. That's about it.

He types "white portuguese" into a search engine and figures out it's a boat.

Agreed. He not a good detective in this.

Yeah yeah, "he was the first batman I actually was scared by" - that's because you don't know if the dude is going to kill you or not!

lol that true.

Bingo. Even Frank Miller realized that when he wrote TDKR. As grim, cruel, and disillusioned as the TDKR version of the character was, he was still essentially Batman and kept to his one-rule. The character was bent to suit the story and explore his limits, but not broken. This Batman was broken.

Agreed.

He also built those sonic canons that he used to attack supes when he lands on the ground.
I don't think any of Balebats tech is that impressive when I look at the whole trilogy.

Its safe to say Alfred and Bruce in this movie even when they are acting like "criminals" are smarter and more technically savvy than Balebats and Kainfred
I mean I like detective Batman as well and he did get to display more opportunities for that facet in the Nolan movies but a lot of it is in conjunction with the help of others whereas this Batman shows he can make his own technology and is a capable computer hacker and he does all his investigative work on his own.

Disagreed. It easier to build weapons. Criminals build weapons all the time. It harder to make devices that can infiltrate whole city like Sonar spy device.

 

[hafizbat]

In real life, delegating tasks to people who are experts in it is seen as being intelligent.

It suits the grounded approach Nolan took. He might not have been "Bat-god" (neither was Batfleck, really), but it was obvious that Bale's Bruce was very intelligent, measured, and calculating. His genius was in his resourcefulness.

 

[DACrowe]

Why not? It's something that the movie explores, whether we like it or not.

But it doesn't explore it. He kills people without thinking about it and neither does the movie. Snyder's apprehensive excuses in the press confirm this. "Nolan kind of did it, and Frank Miller was having him kill people right and left!" (which is untrue).

Snyder did it, because he likes visualizing violence as slick and sexy, oblivious to knowing when it is actually being overdone or hurting his films.

Pretending there is hidden depth behind the decision is like figuring that there is a rational reason behind why Superman let Lex Luthor blackmail him into a fight to the death instead of using his near limitless powers to find his mother. There is no logic behind it, this is simply an excuse for the filmmakers desired goal of a fistfight to occur.

 

[schereZada]

Sticking some kryptonite on a spear, and inside some grenades, is nowhere near the tech know how as something like building a whole sonar machine that can spy on the entire city.

You mean taking what Lucius Fox had created and make it bigger.

 

[The Joker]

You mean taking what Lucius Fox had created and make it bigger.

No, I mean taking a concept and turning into a machine that can eavesdrop on the whole city. All of Batman's tech is based on an original concept. From weaponry to vehicles.

 

[schereZada]

No, I mean taking a concept and turning into a machine that can eavesdrop on the whole city. All of Batman's tech is based on an original concept. From weaponry to vehicles.

"You took my concept and applied it to everybody's phone in the city." Sounds to me like it was all Lucius's concept and Bruce just applied it to multiple phones instead of just one. Couldn't be explained any clearer than Fox did.

 

[The Joker]

"You took my concept and applied it to everybody's phone in the city." Sounds to me like it was all Lucius's concept and Bruce just applied it to multiple phones instead of just one. Couldn't be explained any clearer than Fox did.

That's like saying the creation of the Batmobile is nothing special because it just the concept of a car painted black with a bat design and weapons on it.

Batman took the sonar concept and turned it into a machine that could spy on the entire city. He also data encrypted it and built a self destruct program into it. Nobody said he invented the concept of sonar technology. But he turned it into something hugely impressive.

 

[schereZada]

That's like saying the creation of the Batmobile is nothing special because it just a the concept of a car painted black with a bat design and weapons on it.

Not really, the whole thing with the Tumbler is all those weapons and devices. I don't know many regular cars that have a high-tech motorcycle inside. Bruce just took the tumbler, which had everything already in it, much like he took the military prototype suit and the electric fabric, and modified them slightly for a different purpose. Much like he did with Lucius' sonar concept.

Batman took the sonar concept and turned it into machine that could spy on the entire city. Nobody said he invented the concept of sonar technology. But he turned it into something hugely impressive.

It's an application of a pre-existing new technology. Like when Sandra Bullock in "Gravity" used the soft landing jets as propellants. She used them differently, but hardly changed them much.

"The tech know how as something like building a whole sonar machine"? I don't think so. More like applying that tech know how, which belongs to Lucius Fox not to Bruce (as Fox clearly explains it in the movie), and use it differently.

By those standards, Affleck's Batman is far closer to have invented the kryptonite gas arrow (he experimented with the kryptonite himself, not Lucius, not Alfred) than Bale ever was from creating the technology of his sonar.

 

[The Joker]

Not really, the whole thing with the Tumbler is all those weapons and devices. I don't know many regular cars that have a high-tech motorcycle inside. Bruce just took the tumbler, which had everything already in it, much like he took the military prototype suit and the electric fabric, and modified them slightly for a different purpose. Much like he did with Lucius' sonar concept.

Yes really.

I'm not talking about the Tumbler, I'm talking about the Batmobile. Batman's regular car shaped Batmobile, not the tank mobile.

But since you brought up the Tumbler, it's based on already existing technology; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3ffaDgMfI

The military were so impressed by it they even made a tank based on it; http://gajitz.com/batman-tech-comes-to-life-military-tank-based-on-tumbler/

It's an application of a pre-existing new technology. Like when Sandra Bullock in "Gravity" used the soft landing jets as propellants. She used them differently, but hardly changed them much.

"The tech know how as something like building a whole sonar machine"? I don't think so. More like applying that tech know how, which belongs to Lucius Fox not to Bruce (as Fox clearly explains it in the movie), and use it differently.

By those standards, Affleck's Batman is far closer to have invented the kryptonite gas arrow (he experimented with the kryptonite himself, not Lucius, not Alfred) than Bale ever was from creating the technology of his sonar.

Everything Batman creates is based on pre-existing technology. Everything. None of it is reinventing the wheel and some new breakthrough invention.

Affleck didn't create the concept of the arrow. He didn't create the concept of arrows that shoots gas. So explain to me how that, or sticking kryptonite inside a spear is some revolutionary new idea he created. Spare no expense on the details in your explanation.

Crude weaponry. Nothing compared to creating a sonar machine that can spy on millions of people at the same time.

 

[schereZada]

Yes really.

I'm not talking about the Tumbler, I'm talking about the Batmobile. Batman's regular car shaped Batmobile, not the tank mobile.

But since you brought up the Tumbler, it's based on already existing technology; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu3ffaDgMfI

The military were so impressed by it they even made a tank based on it; http://gajitz.com/batman-tech-comes-to-life-military-tank-based-on-tumbler/



Everything Batman creates is based on pre-existing technology. Everything. None of it is reinventing the wheel and some new breakthrough invention.

Affleck didn't create the concept of the arrow. He didn't create the concept of arrows that shoots gas. So explain to me how that, or sticking kryptonite inside a spear is some revolutionary new idea he created. Spare no expense on the details in your explanation.

Crude weaponry. Nothing compared to creating a sonar device that can spy on millions of people at the same time.

So your point is that everything Batman has invented is based on previous technology? In that case, "sticking some kryptonite on a spear, and inside some grenades" IS very near to altering a pre-existing sonar machine. You said those two things were "nowhere near" and now you say it's not that different. Where's the big difference then? Please, spare no expense on the details in your explanation.

Anyways, as Lucius clearly said, Bruce took his concept and used it differently. He did NOT "create a sonar device that can spy on millions of people at the same time" as you said. Fox invented the sonar that spies, Bruce took it and used it with more phones: "Like the phone I gave you in Hong Kong. You took my sonar concept and applied it to everybody's phone in the city." Can you provide the quote where Alfred tells Bruce it was Alfred who came up with the idea of the krytonite made into gas and the arrow?

And still Affleck did the whole job himself, he didn't take something Alfred did for him and altered it. The experiments with the kryptonite to turn it into gas was all Bruce, not one of his employees.

 

[The Joker]

So your point is that everything Batman has invented is based on previous technology? In that case, "sticking some kryptonite on a spear, and inside some grenades" IS very near to altering a pre-existing sonar machine. You said those two things were "nowhere near" and now you say it's not that different. Where's the big difference then? Please, spare no expense on the details in your explanation.

Anyways, as Lucius clearly said, Bruce took his concept and used it differently. He did NOT "create a sonar device that can spy on millions of people at the same time" as you said. Fox invented the sonar that spies, Bruce took it and used it with more phones: "Like the phone I gave you in Hong Kong. You took my sonar concept and applied it to everybody's phone in the city." Can you provide the quote where Alfred tell Bruce it was Alfred who came up with the idea of the krytonite made into gas and the arrow?

And still Affleck did the whole job himself, he didn't take something Alfred did for him and altered it. The experiments with the kryptonite to turn it into gas was all Bruce, not one of his employees.

The big difference is it takes a lot more skill to take a basic technology concept and turn it into something bigger with far further reaching applications. Not to mention data encrypting it for one person, and building a self destruct program, too, that's code activated. That is a much more impressive achievement.

I know Fox created the spying sonar tech. I never said otherwise. Every type of tech Batman uses was created by someone else first. Fox created it on a small scale phone application. Batman took his small basic concept and turned it into an actual huge machine that could simultaneously spy on the whole city. It's like one person creating the concept of a boat, and someone taking that concept and building a cruise ship.

And Bruce did it all by himself. He took a basic technology concept, both enlarged it and built it himself, applied it to all of the city, data encrypted it specifically for Lucius so nobody else could touch it, and built in a self destruct program activated specifically to Lucius' name.

Batfleck took some kryptonite and put it in weapons like grenades and at the end of a spear. You can't even compare the two. Bale's achievement was far more laboring and impressive.

 

[DoomRulz]

The entire movie hinges on Lex Luthor using his wiles to trick Batman and Superman into fighting. But he doesn't really waste much energy on fooling Superman, who's barely aware that Batman has it in for him.




Instead, he spends almost the entire movie picking at the scab that is Bruce Wayne's anger over the Metropolis disaster that concluded Man of Steel. (That film famously ended with a battle between Superman and General Zod that destroyed much of the city's downtown area, with much loss of innocent life.)

Batman v Superman's single best idea is that Batman has decided Superman is a problem because of the chaos that resulted at the end of that earlier film. Developing the film directly from that conflict could have given Batman v Superman the philosophical weight it so clearly aspires to, and maybe even a touch of political commentary here and there.

Instead, Batman is so single-minded that he comes off like a complete idiot. He can't figure out that a famous crime lord is actually a boat. He misses the obvious ways Luthor is manipulating him (or just doesn't care). And he doesn't seem particularly interested in Diana Prince (Wonder Woman) beyond her attractiveness, even though it might benefit him to have her as a partner.

The Batman of the comics is a rich guy with lots of wonderful toys, yes. But he's also a supergenius. Batman v Superman's Batman is little more than a collection of muscles

From this. I'm inclined to agree, in hindsight.

 

[batmanswife]

Again I chose Ben only because I was never a fan of Bale at all and I've been a huge fan of Ben's for a long time.

 

[DarkVictory]

So, I voted for Bale and I broke it down into three categories, similar to how I did Affleck vs. Keaton (in that one, I ended up voting for neither because they essentially tied).

Characterization: Bale - This one really was the deciding factor (as you will see in how I voted the other two). Fact is, at least Bale's Batman is a legitimate crimefighter with complex emotions. Affleck's Batman only fights crime if it will help him on his path to killing Superman which is seemingly the only thing he cares about. (In the film, we learn that Batman only captured that sex trafficker because he thought it'd get him info on the 'White Portuguese').

Affleck's Batman has his moments, and Bale's suffers some poor writing decisions of his own in the third film, but no film has ever had the perfect encapsulation as to what it means to be 'Batman' like the 'Dark Knight' did.

Look: Tie - I know everyone was in love with the Affleck Batsuit, and I like it, too, actually, but the TDK/TDKR Batsuit is my second favorite in Batfilm history. I LOVE how practical it looks while still being able to display the classic Bat-silhouette.

This category is a tie, however, because Affleck really built up an impressive physique for this film and was able to carry himself like a really powerful fighter. I think the Batsuit actually overdid it in making him look a little too bulky compared to how his physique actually was, though I understand they did it to try and copy the 'Dark Knight Returns' aesthetic.

Acting: Tie - Both actors are great and did well. I'd actually lean slightly more towards Bale, since he had to show a much wider range than Affleck (and I loved his obnoxious cover version of Bruce Wayne), but he lost points for the Bat-voice that got worse as the films went on. (Affleck kind of cheated here by having an electronic voice changer, so he didn't even have to worry about it).

From this. I'm inclined to agree, in hindsight.

Don't forget this part from the same article:

11) If Batman knows so much about Lex Luthor's shady smuggling deals, why doesn't he suspect Luthor's true intentions?

He knows Luthor is keeping an eye on so-called "metahumans" too, so you'd think he would at least be a little suspicious. I realize this is just an extension of my very first point, but that really, really bugged me.

Affleck's Batman is essentially on the trail of a supervillain the whole movie, but mostly just lets him do whatever, doesn't question his motives or intentions, because the only thing he cares about is getting Kryptonite to fight Superman.

Not very Batman to me.

 

[Slade W]

Bale IMO. Affleck was very good too though.

 

[Saxo Cup]

Bale was realy great !!