Benedict Cumberbatch is John Harrison

[thestartrekker]

Spoiler

When John Harrison started seeming to have Khan-like characteristics and people speculated that he was an Augment, there were posters who complained that if they were going to a do a Khan type story involving Augments, they might as well use Khan himself and not make up an original character who is a Khan knockoff. It was an understandable argument at the time. From the very beginning, I was against the idea of doing another dark, revenge story involving a Khan type villain. To me, it seemed and still seems like a wasted opportunity. Why create an alternate timeline if you are just going to mimic stories from the original continuity? Use the freedom of a new timeline to tell new and interesting stories using familiar characters rather as an excuse to film glorified remakes.

I agree. Doing their version of Khan was always going to be risky, and in my opinion this backfired spectacularly. If they'd stopped themselves from replicating so many things from ST09, and TWOK, something original might have crept in, but ...... Doing Khan was just a mistake to begin with. Before the Startrekmovie.com/forums got sabotaged I was on there regularly. Some people were up for it, but most were dead against doing Khan. Its not like they didn't know what people wanted. There was considerable support to get away from the dark revenge story with a Khan type character. They just chose to do it anyway.

...and yet there never seems to be this kind of uproar when Arnold Schwarzenegger or Jean Claude Van Damme, for example, play Americans in movies?!

I saw the film on Friday - loved every second of it!
The reveal of who Harrison was suprised me, which is how it should be. I loved all the little nods to previous movies and the TV series... a tribble for gods sake t:! Loved the look of the Klingons, and thought the talk of imminent war gave a great sense of forboding and danger that the previous ST incarnations never gave you. Also loved the special effects, the jumb to warp drive looked great, and the crash into San Fransisco bay was spectacular.
The only one thing I didn't like was the hiding of the Enterprise in an ocean... there was no reasoning behind it - they could just have stayed in orbit surely!

Shuurely coulda shoulda, but we had the shot of the Enterprise rising out of the rings of Saturn that had us all excited in the first movie (I keep saying first, I know there's 10 movies before the reboot, but for all intents and purposes, for this crew and timeline, ST09 was the first movie), so we had to have a similar money shot in this one too!

You also must take into account that they did the same with the original actor too. Khan was Indian.... yet they hired a Spanish man to play him. I have no problem with the race change since they did it to Khan to begin with. My problem is..... I have already seen a movie involving Augmented Humans and Khan. Tell me how this script is better.

Well, Montalban passes for Indian more than Cumberbatch. Anyway, he is genetically altered, so there could be bits of every race in there some way, he is after all supposed to represent what was the cream of the crop as far as humanity goes.
As for how is this better than another movie involving Khan and Augments. Its not.

 

[SnarkyLeigh]

Spoiler

You also must take into account that they did the same with the original actor too. Khan was Indian.... yet they hired a Spanish man to play him. I have no problem with the race change since they did it to Khan to begin with. My problem is..... I have already seen a movie involving Augmented Humans and Khan. Tell me how this script is better.

Spoiler

Actually Ricardo Montalban was a Mexican actor for one, and for two just because they did it before does not make it right now. And I agree what is a bit worse is the fact that we have already SEEN this movie so why should I see this one? I'm saying that the whitewashing thing is a slap in the face on TOP of the laziness that was making another Khan movie.

 

[DKDetective]

Spoiler

You also must take into account that they did the same with the original actor too. Khan was Indian.... yet they hired a Spanish man to play him. I have no problem with the race change since they did it to Khan to begin with. My problem is..... I have already seen a movie involving Augmented Humans and Khan. Tell me how this script is better.

Spoiler

There is a big difference between hiring a Mexican in the 1960's to play another person of colour and completely whitewashing the character as done here. As others have said, that was a different time and people should be held to a higher standard now-a-days. If anything, what they did with Khan was incredibly progressive. They were subverting the idea of the Aryan Superman by portraying a literal genetic Superman as non-white. Given the standards of the time, hiring Montalban, a minority actor to play the character rather than having a white actor play the role in brownface was also probably progressive. You need to remember that Star Trek was broadcast during the same decade that Mickey Rooney, a white man, was made up to play an offensive, racist caricature of an Asian person. Given Trek's reputation for being a socially progressive franchise, whitewashing Khan does feel like a betrayal of its ideals.

 

[thestartrekker]

Spoiler

There is a big difference between hiring a Mexican in the 1960's to play another person of colour and completely whitewashing the character as done here. As others have said, that was a different time and people should be held to a higher standard now-a-days. If anything, what they did with Khan was incredibly progressive. They were subverting the idea of the Aryan Superman by portraying a literal genetic Superman as non-white. Given the standards of the time, hiring Montalban, a minority actor to play the character rather than having a white actor play the role in brownface was also probably progressive. You need to remember that Star Trek was broadcast during the same decade that Mickey Rooney, a white man, was made up to play an offensive, racist caricature of an Asian person. Given Trek's reputation for being a socially progressive franchise, whitewashing Khan does feel like a betrayal of its ideals.

Spoiler

Read a great article the other day. Viking Khan Khan originally was written as an Aryan / Nordic type, leading a gang of criminals rather than a super human genetically engineered world leader. Nice little titbit why Noonien is in the name as well as Data's "dad's" name. Cumberbatch is a great actor, but he's not Khan. Its like when John Wayne played that other Khan, Genghis. (Yes, you read that correctly),

There's no way any one would find that acceptable nowadays either, but back in the day.......

They thought it was clever misdirection with the casting but I think in the end it was a backfire. Your point about Star Trek being progressive is an excellent one. Sulu going from Japanese to Korean has been accepted because the character on the TOS was representative of a pan-Asian culture/race if you will.

 

[Cannikin]

A little humor. Goodnight.

Spoiler

 

[Slushy]

World's worst kept secret. The Wrath Of Darkness can sod off!

 

[Slushy]

World's worst kept secret. The Wrath Of Darkness can sod off!

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Can I ask someone who saw the movie (and who is probably a little more die-hard of a fan) how does all of the lore fit into the alternate reality? At least, how do you determine it fits?

Spoiler

Didn't Khan wake up earlier than in TOS? Why?
Did the Eugenics program/war happen? Obviously it wouldve been later than TOS as it wasn't in the 90s. Perhaps the 2090s?
Was there any clues I missed as to where the Vengeance came from? It seemed way too advanced to be created in 2259. Did they use Nero's tech?
Why didn't Admiral Marcus attempt any of these shenanigans in TOS?

Any discussion would be appreciated.

 

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Spoiler

You also must take into account that they did the same with the original actor too. Khan was Indian.... yet they hired a Spanish man to play him. I have no problem with the race change since they did it to Khan to begin with. My problem is..... I have already seen a movie involving Augmented Humans and Khan. Tell me how this script is better.

Spoiler

this was the decade that gave us Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. This is 2013, when movies are supposed to be more progressive and inclusive.

 

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Spoiler

There is a big difference between hiring a Mexican in the 1960's to play another person of colour and completely whitewashing the character as done here. As others have said, that was a different time and people should be held to a higher standard now-a-days. If anything, what they did with Khan was incredibly progressive. They were subverting the idea of the Aryan Superman by portraying a literal genetic Superman as non-white. Given the standards of the time, hiring Montalban, a minority actor to play the character rather than having a white actor play the role in brownface was also probably progressive. You need to remember that Star Trek was broadcast during the same decade that Mickey Rooney, a white man, was made up to play an offensive, racist caricature of an Asian person. Given Trek's reputation for being a socially progressive franchise, whitewashing Khan does feel like a betrayal of its ideals.

I didn't read a word of this before making my last post. Well done.

 

[Warhammer]

Can I ask someone who saw the movie (and who is probably a little more die-hard of a fan) how does all of the lore fit into the alternate reality? At least, how do you determine it fits?

Spoiler

Didn't Khan wake up earlier than in TOS? Why?
Did the Eugenics program/war happen? Obviously it wouldve been later than TOS as it wasn't in the 90s. Perhaps the 2090s?
Was there any clues I missed as to where the Vengeance came from? It seemed way too advanced to be created in 2259. Did they use Nero's tech?
Why didn't Admiral Marcus attempt any of these shenanigans in TOS?

Any discussion would be appreciated.

Here are some answers about the TOS lore to help you out.

Spoiler

- No, he actually woke up a little later in TOS.
- Yep, the Eugenics wars did happen and in the 90s. The film doesn't specifically mention the actual wars, but they did happen. Everything before Nero's incursion hasn't been negated hence why there are 72 survivors on the Botany Bay (which also isn't specifically mentioned).
- Well, it couldn't be reverse engineered from Nero's ship because all of his ship went into a black hole. One can say that Nero's appearance fast tracked technology in this alternate timeline. That's also why the Enterprise looks so advanced compared to TOS. Also, the whole reason why Khan alone was awakened was to help Admiral Marcus engineer advanced weapons.
- In the original timeline, there is no Admiral Marcus. Again, after Nero's incursion, everything is fair game to change.

 

[Warhammer]

Spoiler

There is a big difference between hiring a Mexican in the 1960's to play another person of colour and completely whitewashing the character as done here. As others have said, that was a different time and people should be held to a higher standard now-a-days. If anything, what they did with Khan was incredibly progressive. They were subverting the idea of the Aryan Superman by portraying a literal genetic Superman as non-white. Given the standards of the time, hiring Montalban, a minority actor to play the character rather than having a white actor play the role in brownface was also probably progressive. You need to remember that Star Trek was broadcast during the same decade that Mickey Rooney, a white man, was made up to play an offensive, racist caricature of an Asian person. Given Trek's reputation for being a socially progressive franchise, whitewashing Khan does feel like a betrayal of its ideals.

What bothers me is that clearly, [blackout]Khan in the original timeline clearly wasn't white. If he was anything but Indian, it wasn't white. But in this film, Khan is as white as you can get.[/blackout] One thing is for sure. In hindsight, it made perfect sense why they initially tried to get Benecio Del Toro for this film.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Damn Benedict was freaking amazing as THE VILLAIN [blackout]KHAN![/blackout]

 

[dario2739]

First of all Cumberbatch was EXCELLENT in this movie... the whole movie was superb! t:

Anyway...

Spoiler

See this lovely English rose...

That's Jemima Khan - not very Indian looking is she? Well, no, but that's because she got that name from her ex-husband Imran Khan... however she has kids, named Khan, that are not overly 'Indian' in appearance. They will likely have kids, and they, in turn, will - and so on and so on... Getting the point?
Fact is, ST is set in a somewhat utopian future, as far as race is concerned. As illustrated a name could mean very little to your appearance by then - so why the 'hang-up'?
Like as been said already, no worse than hiring a Mexican for the role, or say having a South Korean actor play a Japanese character - and Zachary Quinto is from nowhere near Vulcan!!!
The only thing that matters is that, for me, Cumberbatch was a far more formidable Khan - you saw how augmented he really was, and man can that guy act!!!

 

[Warhammer]

First of all Cumberbatch was EXCELLENT in this movie... the whole movie was superb! t:

Anyway...

Spoiler

See this lovely English rose...

That's Jemima Khan - not very Indian looking is she? Well, no, but that's because she got that name from her ex-husband Imran Khan... however she has kids, named Khan, that are not overly 'Indian' in appearance. They will likely have kids, and they, in turn, will - and so on and so on... Getting the point?
Fact is, ST is set in a somewhat utopian future, as far as race is concerned. As illustrated a name could mean very little to your appearance by then - so why the 'hang-up'?
Like as been said already, no worse than hiring a Mexican for the role, or say having a South Korean actor play a Japanese character - and Zachary Quinto is from nowhere near Vulcan!!!
The only thing that matters is that, for me, Cumberbatch was a far more formidable Khan - you saw how augmented he really was, and man can that guy act!!!

That's not why people are complaining. You missed the point. First off, nobody is complaining about Cumberbatch's acting for he portrayed a terrific villain. The problem people are having is that [blackout]Khan was obviously not white. Forget the fact that he is originally an Indian character portrayed by Ricardo Montalbán. It's the ethnicity. Cumberbatch is about as white as you can get. Khan and the Eugenics Wars (1990's) predates Nero entering the timeline, which means that he should look somewhat similar to Montalbán as he it already established within the franchise.[/blackout] After Abrams couldn't get Benicio Del Toro cast, he just decided "Oh f*** it" and cast Cumberbatch. That's the problem some fans are having and for all the fan service that this film delivers, it isn't irrational for some to feel that way.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

As someone who was born well after Trek finished and never cared for the series, I'm essentially a GA member.

I loved the film. I had no problem with Cumberbatch and his character, nor how he was portrayed (I didn't mind Hardy playing Bane or Neeson R'as either) I didn't think there was a solitary bad point in the film(perhaps the blood deus ex machina was too heavily hinted at). The only problem for me is that the movie has the stigma of being Star Trek, and competing with perhaps the biggest film of the year, so won't earn what it deserves at the BO.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Very happy with the villain, especially :

Spoiler

that he is still alive, setting him up to plague Kirk for movies to come.

 

[danoyse]

This was the first time I'd seen Cumberbatch in anything (just like with Doctor Who, I'm far behind on catching up on BBC awesomeness), and now I see why he's got the fanbase he has. He was awesome.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Saw it today. Cumberbatch was terrific as always. Loved watching Kirk try to keep up with Harrison's badassness. Very impressed with Cumberbatch's physicality in the film.

Also, [BLACKOUT]how did anyone ever doubt he was Khan? It is kinda of funny because the entire film ended up hinging on it. Very, very happy that they kept him alive.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Warhammer]

Sherlock is spectacular.

 

[danoyse]

Sherlock is spectacular.

Just added it to my Netflix queue.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I am currently working on a Benedict Cumberbatch impersonation, and I am going to use it everywhere: ordering pizza on the phone, asking co-workers to borrow their stapler, leaving my outgoing voice mail.

 

[Soapy]

As someone who [...] never cared for the series

The only problem for me is that the movie has the stigma of being Star Trek

This is going to come off much snarkier than I intend, but congratulations! You're the target demographic for these movies! I really mean the "congratulations". I'm glad more people are getting to enjoy Star Trek, I personally just think it's such a shame they had to make Star Trek movies for people who don't like Star Trek for that to happen.

My hope after Star Trek '09 was that after capturing the general audience, that would give them the financial leeway to make a Star Trek film for people who actually like Star Trek. Maybe next time!

 

[Dude of Steel]

Benedict did a great job, but he needed WAY more screen time. That's my only real complain about the movie. Peter Wellers is essentially the main villain in the movie.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

Sherlock is spectacular.

I've been waiting for Season 3 for far too long