World Best Of The Top Three

[Hobgoblin]

You're getting desperate now, mate Two things you already know about that story:

1. Ock was drugged and brain washed in that. As Spidey said "Ock is not on his true top form"
2. Norman didn't beat Ock. They both got struck by lightning and fell into the ocean.

But you knew this already

As I said, Otto was doped up. Sheesh, am I using silly arguments or cant you read?

You can't say Ock being clever enough to upgrade his tentacles is unfair. It's smart.

Leaving your adversary at a disadvantage is smart indeed. Like Otto being drugged to slow his reflexes. It wasnt cheating, it was taking advantage of the situation. Had Otto been on his game, he would have been much more of a challenge to Norman. Just like the Hulk would have clobbered Ock, had Octopus not upgraded his tentacles. So the comparison is valid.

Ok Demo, what's up with you today? Why are you acting silly? Again you know that's not how she died:

Goblin: "Fool! She was dead before your webbing reached her. A fall from that height would killed anyone".

Now if we're going to continue with this, at least use some proper arguements.

Thats exactly how she died. Just ask Peter. Every chance he has had to catch a person in free fall, he avoided the single web line strategy to save them. See MJ's fall in MKSM. He used multiple web lines. See the Clone Saga issue where Peter swung down to save clone Gwen as she fell from the bridge, instead of webbing her. He certainly blames himself for her death.

What, you are going to trust Osborn over Parker?

 

[The Joker]

Ok Demo, the scans you requested of Spidey showing fear and intimidation because of Ock:

1. Amazing Spider-Man #90: Spidey has engaged Ock in battle, and Ock proves much too dangerous that Spidey runs and hides in an air vent:

2. Spectacular Spider-Man #77: The aftermath of Ock's near killing of Black Cat and putting her in hospital. Spidey is tormented by nightmares of Ock trying to kill her:

3. Spectacular Spider-Man #79: Spidey is so scared of his upcoming battle with Ock that he thinks he may well never see his friends and loved ones again, so he goes and says a final goodbye to them. There's more scenes from this issue with Aunt May etc:

4. Spectacular Spider-Man (Vol 2) #6: The infamous story where Ock almost forces Spidey to unmask himself to the world. Here Ock has intercepted Spidey on his night patrol, dished out a beating to him, and Spidey scarpers quick sharp from Ock by diving limply into the ocean:

And just to close off this post, I'd like to add that one thing that always impressed me with Ock is his ability to scare Spidey, and screw with Spidey personal life despite the fact that he doesn't have the inside info of who Spidey really is.

That is impressive.

 

[The Joker]

As I said, Otto was doped up. Sheesh, am I using silly arguments or cant you read?

I pointed it out because being doped up and brain washed is a far greater disadvantage than the one you pointed out. Hulk was not debilitated in any way. he was on his usual top form and he still lost.

Leaving your adversary at a disadvantage is smart indeed. Like Otto being drugged to slow his reflexes. It wasnt cheating, it was taking advantage of the situation. Had Otto been on his game, he would have been much more of a challenge to Norman. Just like the Hulk would have clobbered Ock, had Octopus not upgraded his tentacles. So the comparison is valid.

It's not valid because Ock was debilitated both physically and mentally. Hulk wasn't. He was on top of his game.

Thats exactly how she died. Just ask Peter. Every chance he has had to catch a person in free fall, he avoided the single web line strategy to save them. See MJ's fall in MKSM. He used multiple web lines. See the Clone Saga issue where Peter swung down to save clone Gwen as she fell from the bridge, instead of webbing her. He certainly blames himself for her death.

What, you are going to trust Osborn over Parker?

I trust the writers of Marvel. The Green Goblin killed Gwen. Not Peter. Not his webline. If Peter's webline killed her, don't you think Norman would have rubbed that salt into the wound?

You start a thread asking that in the comics forum and see what folk tell you.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Hm, Spidey running for his life? Heck, Venom can make him do that. Kraven's dead body made him do that. (Soul of the Hunter.)

Peter also believed his life was over as he battled Morlun. No one considers him to be a part of the Big Two, I mean, Three. Norman and Harry have threatened to expose Peter for years, something Otto never did. Heck, he saved his life after being poisoned by the Vulture. Oh, and as Peter was dying of the virus, he dreamed of being killed by Harry. Ditto for when he was tied up by the True Believers before Otto's resurrection. Goblins give him nightmares. More than Octopus ever did.

Ah, Countdown. My favorite Ock story (besides Negative Exposure.) Genuinely a creepy panel you posted, Joker. Very cool. I bought a black trenchcoat shortly afterwards (they were out of purple skull caps).

Still, remember the end of the story. Peter not only mocks Ock in front of the world by exposing his mask...only to have another mask on underneath...he slaps Ock around and tells him "Ask me nicely." As you say...pwnd.

Never seen him act that flip around Norman, have you?

 

[Hobgoblin]

I trust the writers of Marvel. The Green Goblin killed Gwen. Not Peter. Not his webline. If Peter's webline killed her, don't you think Norman would have rubbed that salt into the wound?

You start a thread asking that in the comics forum and see what folk tell you.

Interesting idea.

 

[The Joker]

Hm, Spidey running for his life? Heck, Venom can make him do that.

Venom knows who he really is. Ock doesn't, and he can still make him run. Which is more impressive?

Kraven's dead body made him do that. (Soul of the Hunter.)

There's been many things that have made Spidey scared. You asked for examples of him showing fear of Ock. There you have it. Electro made Spidey beg for his life once. Norman never did that. Or Ock. Or Venom.

Does that degrade them? No.

Peter also believed his life was over as he battled Morlun. No one considers him to be a part of the Big Two, I mean, Three.

Because Morlun is a supernatural being. He's on a whole other level. It'd be like Galactus tackling Spidey. And Morlun has not being menacing Spidey for years on a constant basis.

Next!

Norman and Harry have threatened to expose Peter for years, something Otto never did.

So? They knew his identity. Ock never did.

That's a point you keep seem to be missing. Ock can put the frighteners on Spidey WITHOUT this info.

Heck, he saved his life after being poisoned by the Vulture.

So he could kill him himself. That's twisted.

Just like how Norman doesn't want anyone else to know Peter is SPidey because he thinks it's their "special secret".

Oh, and as Peter was dying of the virus, he dreamed of being killed by Harry. Ditto for when he was tied up by the True Believers before Otto's resurrection. Goblins give him nightmares. More than Octopus ever did.

Again, they know his secret identity.

You seem to be trying to turn the argument around now that I've proved you wrong. Nobody was demeaning the effectiveness of the Goblins. You asked for scans of when Spidey was tormented and scared by Ock. You got them. Now you're turning it around into examples of when the Goblins have done the same.

Why? Nobody denied the Goblins tormented Spidey, too.

Ah, Countdown. My favorite Ock story (besides Negative Exposure.) Genuinely a creepy panel you posted, Joker. Very cool. I bought a black trenchcoat shortly afterwards (they were out of purple skull caps).

Hahahaha, you never told me that t:

Still, remember the end of the story. Peter not only mocks Ock in front of the world by exposing his mask...only to have another mask on underneath...he slaps Ock around and tells him "Ask me nicely." As you say...pwnd.

Never seen him act that flip around Norman, have you?

No, because Norman usually gets amnesia or "dies" when Spidey beats him t:

 

[Hobgoblin]

So he could kill him himself. That's twisted.

Just like how Norman doesn't want anyone else to know Peter is SPidey because he thinks it's their "special secret".

Touche.

Again, they know his secret identity.

You seem to be trying to turn the argument around now that I've proved you wrong. Nobody was demeaning the effectiveness of the Goblins. You asked for scans of when Spidey was tormented and scared by Ock. You got them. Now you're turning it around into examples of when the Goblins have done the same.

What I'm saying is that the Goblins have done what Ock did but more often and to greater effect. Otto gave Peter a nightmare once. The Osborns have been doing it for years.

Hahahaha, you never told me that t:

Oh yes, its a prized possession for me. Long, heavy, warm and regal. My parents werent too happy about it. They thought it set a bad image. They should be happy I didnt get the purple tunic.

No, because Norman usually gets amnesia or "dies" when Spidey beats him t:

Exactly. "Dies." Norman gets impaled and shrugs it off. Otto gets a broken neck and is down for the count.

Norman 1
Otto 0

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a city to destroy.

...

Ok, its a dentist appointment. Enjoyed it, Mr Joker.

 

[The Joker]

What I'm saying is that the Goblins have done what Ock did but more often and to greater effect.

Again nobody denied that.

Otto gave Peter a nightmare once. The Osborns have been doing it for years.

Again, I never denied the Goblins affected Peter more personally. My arguement is that Ock is more effective because he can affect Peter personally like this without knowing who he is.

That is more impressive, IMO. He doesn't need insider info to create the same effect. He's just as deadly without such information about Peter.

I'm not trying to diminish the Goblins. At least Norman learned that info the clever way. It wasn't handed to him thru a symbiote ala Venom.

Exactly. "Dies." Norman gets impaled and shrugs it off. Otto gets a broken neck and is down for the count.

Mmmm, we both know that both of those instances are products of the ultra lame Clone Saga. One of the worst periods in Spidey history.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Mmmm, we both know that both of those instances are products of the ultra lame Clone Saga. One of the worst periods in Spidey history.

It still happend, so its valid. We dont ge to pick and choose. And the point of this little go around is only to express why I prefer Goblin over Ock. Nothing more.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Ok Demo, the scans you requested of Spidey showing fear and intimidation because of Ock:

1. Amazing Spider-Man #90: Spidey has engaged Ock in battle, and Ock proves much too dangerous that Spidey runs and hides in an air vent:

2. Spectacular Spider-Man #77: The aftermath of Ock's near killing of Black Cat and putting her in hospital. Spidey is tormented by nightmares of Ock trying to kill her:

3. Spectacular Spider-Man #79: Spidey is so scared of his upcoming battle with Ock that he thinks he may well never see his friends and loved ones again, so he goes and says a final goodbye to them. There's more scenes from this issue with Aunt May etc:

4. Spectacular Spider-Man (Vol 2) #6: The infamous story where Ock almost forces Spidey to unmask himself to the world. Here Ock has intercepted Spidey on his night patrol, dished out a beating to him, and Spidey scarpers quick sharp from Ock by diving limply into the ocean:

And just to close off this post, I'd like to add that one thing that always impressed me with Ock is his ability to scare Spidey, and screw with Spidey personal life despite the fact that he doesn't have the inside info of who Spidey really is.

That is impressive.

None of that was even necessary; Ock was the FIRST villain to instill fear & intimidation in Spidey, & has done so far more effectively than Brock ever could.

 

[The Joker]

It still happend, so its valid. We dont ge to pick and choose.

Yes, we do when it's crap. Gwen Stacy shagging Norman and having his bastard kids in secret, and MJ knowing about it and keeping it from Peter all these years is still valid in the comics.

But most Spidey fans ignore that because it was so craptastic.

None of that was even necessary; Ock was the FIRST villain to instill fear & intimidation in Spidey, & has done so far more effectively than Brock ever could.

I know, mate. But it's nice to enforce the point with a few cool scans.

 

[Mutagen]

Swap those two descriptions around and you got it right. Venom is the eye candy, Ock is the Peter Parker opposite. He's got much more in common with Parker than Eddie Brock. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Watch the Ockumentary on the Spider-Man 2 DVD features. Even the Marvel writers call Ock the Peter Parker gone bad. The only thing Venom has in common with him is physical appearance and powers. Physical attributes. He's the eye candy villain.

Venom has the powers of a spider. Doc Ock is a scientist, other than that they are hardly opposites. When Peter had four extra limps, yes he was like a good Doc Ock, if you even agree with that much.

He wasn't even like he was in the comics for the movie. The bad guys were the arms, not the man who controls them, please don't tell me you think we should listen to someone who says they know Doc Ock when they completely ignore his whole history. They did a correct visual interpretation of him, not a character one.

EDIT: Green Goblin is as much an opposite to Spider-man as Ock, by which you probably say they are smart and can manipulate others. Goblin also has super powers, like Peter and was popular enough to have produced another popular, at least in my eyes, character.

 

[The Joker]

Venom has the powers of a spider. Doc Ock is a scientist, other than that they are hardly opposites. When peter had four arms, yes he was like a good Doc Ock, if you even agree with that much.

You called Venom Peter's opposite, yes? Do be an opposite they have to share similarities. Are you talking strictly just powers, or character as well?

Clarify this, please, before I continue.

He wasn't even like he was in the comics for the movie. The bad guys were the arms, not the man who controls them, please don't tell me you think we should listen to someone who says they know Doc Ock when they completely ignore his whole history. They did a correct visual interpretation of him, not a character one.

What are you talking about? The movie makers didn't say it on the special features. The people at Marvel did who were interviewed on it. Stan, John Romita, and JMS.

They were talking about the comics. Not the movie itself.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

That interview about Spider-Man 3 just makes me wish that Venom wasn't in it. Peter getting arrogant and vengeful all on his own is much more interesting, plus the dancing would be gone because Raimi wouldn't have to show that Peter had changed while maintaing a PG 13 rating.

 

[Mutagen]

You called Venom Peter's opposite, yes? Do be an opposite they have to share similarities. Are you talking strictly just powers, or character as well?

Clarify this, please, before I continue.

Maybe not his brains, or origin, or even personality but killing people and being ruthless is the opposite of Peter nature, you can say that about a hundred villains he's faced.

On a side note, many people would argue that Ock looks cool with four penis-like arms that show off his masculinity, while Venom look is not original. I don't think so when Spidey's got the outfit, and even then it was copied.

 

[The Joker]

Maybe not his brains, or origin, or even personality but killing people and being ruthless is the opposite of Peter nature, you can say that about a hundred villains he's faced.

Exactly, which is why Venom is not his opposite.

On a side note, many people would argue that Ock looks cool with four penis-like arms that show off his masculinity, while Venom look is not original.

I have never seen ANYONE say that. You just made that up. Penis like arms? What are you, ten years old?

When has masculinity EVER been a factor with Octavius? He's scientist. Really poor arguement, Doom.

 

[Mutagen]

Exactly, which is why Venom is not his opposite.



I have never seen ANYONE say that. You just made that up. Penis like arms? What are you, ten years old?

When has masculinity EVER been a factor with Octavius? He's scientist. Really poor arguement, Doom.

Please explain to why Ock is Parker's oposite, other than the fact the he's a scientist.

And I was trying to make a joke about the arms, obviously I must come off as very serious in my quotes, so I'll put an emoticon.

 

[The Joker]

Please explain to why Ock is Parker's oposite, other than the fact the he's a scientist.

Several things:

- Both born and raised in middle class New York
- Both lost parents at a young age
- Both were science geeks with big round glasses in school
- Both were lonely with no friends, unpopular with girls etc
- Both acquired their powers thru a radioactive accident because of their love for science
- Peter chose to use his power responsibly. While Ock chose to use his for his own selfish gain.
- Both turned out the way they did because of their parents figures. Octavius is a product of his abusive father and overbearing mother. Peter learned all of his moral values from May and Ben.

The geek gone good and the geek gone bad. They even did a reflection of them in Spider-Man 2 with their stories. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live the dream of a normal life. Doc Ock was being irresponisble by doing evil things in order to make his dream succeed.

And I was trying to make a joke about the arms, obviously I must come off as very serious in my quotes, so I'll put an emoticon.

LOL! Ok, fair enough. Sorry, you actually seemed serious there. I was wondering what kind of penises you'd seen that reminded you of Ock's tentacles

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Several things:

- Both turned out the way they did because of their parents figures. Octavius is a product of his abusive father and overbearing mother. Peter learned all of his moral values from May and Ben.

Ock's parents were really more extreme versions of Aunt May and Uncle Ben. Ock's father always wanted Ock to stand up for himself and be more confident but he expressed it is a more violent way and then showed no love. Ben wanted the same for Peter but did it be encouraging Peter's interests and imagination and was always there for him when he needed.

Ock mother was overbearing but so is Aunt May, only May always allowed Peter to live his life.

 

[Mutagen]

Several things:

- Both born and raised in middle class New York
- Both lost parents at a young age
- Both were science geeks with big round glasses in school
- Both were lonely with no friends, unpopular with girls etc
- Both acquired their powers thru a radioactive accident because of their love for science
- Peter chose to use his power responsibly. While Ock chose to use his for his own selfish gain.
- Both turned out the way they did because of their parents figures. Octavius is a product of his abusive father and overbearing mother. Peter learned all of his moral values from May and Ben.

The geek gone good and the geek gone bad. They even did a reflection of them in Spider-Man 2 with their stories. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live the dream of a normal life. Doc Ock was being irresponisble by doing evil things in order to make his dream succeed.

The geek aspect very much so, I agree, good points. This is before they were villain and hero, which they are now. Peter was also selfish at first with his power, at first, he might have continued that way had his father figure not died out. I very much doubt that Ock's family or friends could change his mind about doing evil at all. Ock was so insane that he actually killed people, Spider-man doesn't seem like he would kill people for being a nerd.

 

[The Joker]

Ock's parents were really more extreme versions of Aunt May and Uncle Ben. Ock's father always wanted Ock to stand up for himself and be more confident but he expressed it is a more violent way and then showed no love. Ben wanted the same for Peter but did it be encouraging Peter's interests and imagination and was always there for him when he needed.

Ock mother was overbearing but so is Aunt May, only May always allowed Peter to live his life.

You know I never even thought of that. Excellent points, mate.

The geek aspect very much so, I agree, good points.

Cheers!

This is before they were villain and hero, which they are now. Peter was also selfish at first with his power, at first, he might have continued that way had his father figure not died out. I very much doubt that Ock's family or friends could change his mind about doing evil at all. Ock was so insane that he actually killed people, Spider-man doesn't seem like he would kill people for being a nerd.

That's one of the glaring differences between them. Peter did originally try to make a few bucks as Spidey. But he did it the honest way. He didn't steal or rob. He was still a morally sound person. His Uncle's death drove home the point of using his great power responsibly.

Ock was the flip side of the coin. From the moment he acquired his power he used it for evil, because he was a bad person. A product of his upbringing, just like Peter.

 

[Mutagen]

That's one of the glaring differences between them. Peter did originally try to make a few bucks as Spidey. But he did it the honest way. He didn't steal or rob. He was still a morally sound person. His Uncle's death drove home the point of using his great power responsibly.

Ock was the flip side of the coin. From the moment he acquired his power he used it for evil, because he was a bad person. A product of his upbringing, just like Peter.

That's just what I mean though, every villain is irresponsible, you can make that argument about Carnage, more so even because he kills on a massive scale, while Spider-man saves lives on a massive scale. Yes, Doc Ock is Parker's intellectual ying to his yang, you've proved that, but Venom is a giant Spiderman like Parker. You can say the same about Scorpion though, he's got the power's a spider's natural enemy too I suppose, That's why I'm not saying Venom is the best. The point is Spider-man's power is the same as Venom, a rivalry of spiders.

 

[Duskbyday]

I would say the thing about Ock is that could have been Peter. Thier lives were thesame, butthier life let one guy have a good life (mostly) and one with a terrible life that made him snap (ock).

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Peter wasn't evil when he first got his powers, just irresponsible. It wasn't that when the burgular ran by him he didn't care that he could hurt other people, it was that the thought never entered his head in the first place.

Ock knew that his actions would have dire consequences on others, in fact in Year One he fantasied about it for years before he was capable, he just didn't care

 

[Chris Wallace]

The best villains are parallels of the hero-or polar opposites. GG & Ock are both men who are driven by their love of science, like Peter. They revel in the freedom that their newfound power gave them, like Peter. Only Peter was brought down to Earth when his hubris cost him. Brock, on the other hand, is a short-sighted journalist who can't take responsibility for his actions or decide what side of the fence he's on. Ock & Gobby aren't deluded; they haven't convinced themselves that they're the heroes & Spider-Man is some demonic entity that's out to ruin their lives.