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[moraldeficiency]

Good question. Can two crappy explanations cancel each other out? Well if the devil popped back up and undid everything, I would think it's a ****** explanation, but like I did with the clone saga I'd go back to reading. I mean at least there's symmetry in treating these "new" readers and SOS supporters like they have been treating us for the past two-three years.

Plus I'm not reading currently so when they do bring it all back this will be like the clone saga in my mind, just some crazy @hit that didn't really happen in my mind. Then I could go out and buy the trades and see what this alternate spidey story was all about.

Though if I had a vote I'd go with a confrontation where Pete finds out what an @sshole he was, realizes his soul is in mortal peril, and has to team up with some of his friends(because he's in way over his head) like the good doctor to try and fix the mess he's in. In the end May would be dead, and there'd be a touching funeral with the NA attending along with a @rapload of other people her life had touched. Pete, May and either Jarvis (or Otto actually, that would be cool) would make some speeches and it would be very touching.

 

[Themanofbat]

No. The real Spider-man would never make a deal with the devil no matter what MJ says. He wouldn't even consider it for a second. For starters he's not an idiot. He's hung around Ghost Rider and other characters who's dealt with Mesphito before and knows you can't trust the devil. Especially not to save his Aunts life. Especially after his Aunt told him to let her go when Madame Web let him talk to her. Especially while he knows his Aunt May is a christian and would never want to be saved by the devil. To her, that would be worse than letting her die. Especially while knowing she would never ask him to trade his marriage and happiness for her life. No. This guy was nothing like the Spider-man I knew. You can say he is, but his actions don't compute or add up with the original. Sorry, this is Spider-Man, yes, but only in name only.
We've discussed this before, and neither one of us budged from our stand point of it. So let's just agree to disagree. You like reading about a Spider-man who makes deals with Satan. I don't. I guess that's all their is to it.

Sure... I can agree to disagree, but I'll take minor offense to the "I like to read about a Spider-Man who makes deals with Satan"...

As mentioned in my previous post, I obviously DID NOT LIKE IT!!!!

But there have been MANY things in Spider-Lore that have occured in my 33 + years of reading that I did not like... OMD being one of the biggest ones.

Peter Parker is not perfect and is prone to making bad choices and bad decisions... and the powers at Marvel Comics Inc. decided that this was the option that they wanted to go... I wouldn't have done that, but it's THEIR character, not mine nor yours, and this is the direction that they wanted to go. And despite the terrible story that OMD, Brand New Day seems like a shining star with brilliant scripts and a real old school Spidey feel in this new millenium.

I like it, and I'll be happy to accept the fact that you do not.

However, it IS Spider-Man... and by claiming that it's "Spider-Man in Name Only", you're telling me that you're the bigger Spider-Man fan and you obviously know the Spider-Man character better than I do, because in YOUR OPINION, this is merely a Spider-Man in Name Only... and I resent the fact that you think you're a bigger and better Spider-Man fan than I am because I have never made that claim... we're all Spider-Man fans, regardless of how long we've been reading the books or how many Spidey comics we have in our collections... I could easily throw the "I'm a bigger fan than you card", but that would be insulting and not very tactful...

Thanks for NOT showing me the same respect.

Have a nice day.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

^this is why the clone saga dragged for so long. That's why we're bitter. It's cool that you like it, but you're gonna get called out every time because of it. That's where you're at today, here and now, crossing the picket lines. Either accept it, or remain bitter and don't.

Oh, i acept it just fine. In fact im laughing my ass off at all you crybabies. t:

When you're not boring me to tears that is.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Oh, i acept it just fine. In fact im laughing my ass off at all you crybabies. t:

When you're not boring me to tears that is.

Oldly enough, that's exactely how us purists who expect to be treated with respect feel about you scabs.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Oldly enough, that's exactely how us purists who expect to be treated with respect feel about you scabs.

One man's purist is another man's fascist.

 

[moraldeficiency]

and one man's fan is another man's scab.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Blah, Blah, Whine, Whine, Boo Hoo

 

[moraldeficiency]

And that's why I'm glad I'm not with you on the argument. It really feels like kids (scabs) on one side (with a few exceptions) and adults with sense on the other (with a few exceptions).

I mean you're whining about people whining. Do you realize how that comes across? If you were actually above the matter and loving life so much you wouldn't comment other than to say how sorry you felt other spider-fans weren't loving this great new book. Instead you come on to whine. And not only that, but to explain how you don't like other people @itching on the other side.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

And that's why I'm glad I'm not with you on the argument. It really feels like kids (scabs) on one side (with a few exceptions) and adults with sense on the other (with a few exceptions).

I mean you're whining about people whining. Do you realize how that comes across? If you were actually above the matter and loving life so much you wouldn't comment other than to say how sorry you felt other spider-fans weren't loving this great new book. Instead you come on to whine. And not only that, but to explain how you don't like other people @itching on the other side.

Wow. Someone calling people names over a comic book is actually accusing others of acting like "kids".


Have a nice day.

 

[Captivated]

I'm not whining... I'm MAD.

I love Spider-Man... I've read VOLUMES of back issues because I wanted to know his WHOLE story, I have a large collection of comics, and merchandise too... especially for someone who has been a fan for just 4 years.

I've put up with the sometimes distasteful and stupid developments (you all know what I am talking about), hoping something better was around the corner... but OMD was a "deal killer" on SO MANY levels...

1.) The PERMANENT loss of the marriage... this alone would have done it for me.

2.) The unbelievably STUPID and out-of-character decision to DEAL with the DEVIL... I don't care how desperately they tried to build it up and spin it... Peter LOVED Mary Jane way too much...

See... the thing I liked about Peter WAS that no matter how he was abused and tempted, he would usually WIN his struggle with insurmountable problems and odds in the end. If he was really IN CHARACTER he would have MANNED UP and realized he was being SELFISH by holding onto May in a way she would DETEST... she would NOT want him to sacrifice his VOWS and LOVE for MJ... or turn his life (and hers) over to the manipulations of SATAN.

3.) The complete MESS they have made of continuity. NOTHING is certain. 20 years of rich history has been FLUSHED.

They can SAY "most" everything happened the way it was written, but how STUPID do they think we are?! With all they have changed, that is IMPOSSIBLE. Peter's history can now be rewritten, willy-nilly, with no explanation needed. It's just the devil's magic...

4.) JQ telling people that the stories with Peter and MJ happened... they just WEREN'T MARRIED... essentially turning romantic moments into IMMORAL ones!! (At least for some of us.) Yeah, what a great role model for kids. NOT. WHY would he want to ALIENATE a chunk of the fan base like that?!

The feeling I'm left with... is that the stories being told NOW... after Peter awakes, as if from a "dream," are FAKE. His world is not just OFF... it's WRONG.

I can't read or support this...

If I had known such a complete cluster f*** was even possible... I would have never started reading in the first place. I WISH I had known... I could have SAVED so much money.

But I love the character and KNOW that if enough pressure is applied, things can CHANGE.

 

[Blader5489]

^this is why the clone saga dragged for so long.

Actually, the Clone Saga dragged on for so long because of marketing influence and writer's block.

 

[iloveclones]

I'd be curious to see how many people would change their tune if they used the same method in OMD to restore the marriage.

Of course they would. Because now, it's bad and lazy writing pursuing an agenda. If they reversed it in the exact same way, it would be considered a "necessary evil" to get back to the one, true shining light in the universe: The Marriage of MJ and Pete, without which all life is rendered meaningless.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Actually, the Clone Saga dragged on for so long because of marketing influence and writer's block.

End of the day enough people drop the book and they wouldn't give a damn about marketing and new writers would have been hired. Sales are the only trend a company (especially a big one like marvel basically run by suits) really cares about. Too many people didn't give the book up, so it just kept going.

 

[stillanerd]

Of course they would. Because now, it's bad and lazy writing pursuing an agenda. If they reversed it in the exact same way, it would be considered a "necessary evil" to get back to the one, true shining light in the universe: The Marriage of MJ and Pete, without which all life is rendered meaningless.

Actually, in my case, I'd laugh because it would once again prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Marvel is sending the message that folks shouldn't bother investing their time and money in their comic books because, at the end of the day, nothing they do will ever stick. After all, we were told that [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] would offer two new villains to Spidey's rogues gallery that would last for years. The Stacy Twins only were referenced ONCE outside that story and quickly forgotten about by Marvel. "The Other" was supposed to involve permanent changes to Spider-Man. Instead, those new powers were barely explored or featured at all. We were told that the "Unmasking" would create dozens of story possibilities and there would be no easy way out. It barely lasted for a year and a half before it was magically done away with thanks to One More Day. Now Joe Q is saying that Brand New Day is here to stay and that there is no back door built in--this despite the fact that he even said that Mephisto lies when it comes to deals and that whatever MJ whispered to Mephisto is important. So if Marvel decides to restore the marriage in the similar fashion, if Brand New Day is actually revealed to be, say, a Heroes Reborn type set-up, then once again, everybody praising this new status quo (which, I seem to notice, appear to make up mostly the same folks who praised the unmasking and the Other when they were going on) will once again have been suckered. Of course, considering how Joe Q made such a big deal about the marriage being the bane of the character's existence, I don't believe he'll actually restore their marriage, but he just might restore their relationship, especially if readership and sales have declined on Brand New Day.

 

[Blader5489]

End of the day enough people drop the book and they wouldn't give a damn about marketing and new writers would have been hired. Sales are the only trend a company (especially a big one like marvel basically run by suits) really cares about. Too many people didn't give the book up, so it just kept going.

You don't know what you're talking about. Sales absolutely plummeted during that era, from 400,000 copies a month to 40,000; plenty of people gave up the book. If anything, declining sales were the impetus for the continued marketing direction of the series.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

You don't know what you're talking about. Sales absolutely plummeted during that era, from 400,000 copies a month to 40,000; plenty of people gave up the book. If anything, declining sales were the impetus for the continued marketing direction of the series.

Absolutely. You'd think a self proclaimed Spider-Man "purist" would be aware of that fact.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Wow. Someone calling people names over a comic book is actually accusing others of acting like "kids".


Have a nice day.

Pretty sure you started the name calling actually (introspection, give it a whirl). I labeled current fans that are reading scabs. That's actually a term, with a very specific meaning for those crossing a picket line. So it's not a name, it's a label (please tell me you don't need me to explain the difference to you, I hate that overused passive agressive tactic).

And don't say a comic book like it's not important enough to get worked up about, you're obviously emotional on the topic and so am I, so whether it's important enough to the average person is irrevelant, it's important enough to you and me to actually devote time and energy to discuss aspects of it.

But yeah, you seemed pretty childish (that would be a comment on your emotional state and how you've been posting). I'm mean you're basically saying nothing. You're advancing no opinion, showing no new sides, not even explaining why you feel the way you do. You're merely calling other people whiney because they're expressing themselves the exact same way you are but from the other side of the argument.

My day's been going pretty well though, I appreciate your good wishes.

 

[iloveclones]

I would caution either side of the clone debate that yes, there was a huge decline in sales (so you're wrong MD, but actually to your benefit). But that was happening to the comic industry overall. I think people who hated the clone saga conveniently point to that as the fans rising up and creating change. I think people here are empowered by that example, and maybe shouldn't be.

The other x-factor not being considered here, is that I don't think the direction of Spidey is completely dependent on sales, like other titles are. So many other forces(movies, merchandise, company branding, stockholders) pull at the direction the character goes, and comic sales is just one of them. So to cause any change, I suspect that you would need a precipitous drop (and I mean to the 20-30K/issue zone, which would still translate to 60-90K/month)

 

[moraldeficiency]

From what I remember the bubble was popping on sales all over. Spider-Man still retained the number of readers to keep it going though. It was a bad time all around, and I'll be honest and say I was not reading pete/ben at all (my first boycott) so maybe I'm off base on this, but companies are companies and sales dictate what a company does. With the mass exodus of readers at that time I'm willing to bet that spider-man readers were just one of many concerns but they still sustained enough to keep it going.

I'm curious about your comment, blader, with the "declining sales were the impetus for the continued marketing direction of the series." comment which I'm fairly confused about.

Yes, captian s, you don't like me or my views. Gotcha. Though purists does not mean complete knowledge of all aspects of something, merely that one doesn't want a disolution of the purpose or intent. Maybe sometime in the distant future you'll favor us with an actual opinion or thought of your own other than to complain or agree with other people (though I won't hold my breath).

If I was wrong on the sales comment though, my mistake.

 

[Themanofbat]

...then once again, everybody praising this new status quo (which, I seem to notice, appear to make up mostly the same folks who praised the unmasking and the Other when they were going on) will once again have been suckered.

Boy... that's insulting... when has anyone here praised The Other? I know I didn't do it.

Of course, considering how Joe Q made such a big deal about the marriage being the bane of the character's existence, I don't believe he'll actually restore their marriage, but he just might restore their relationship, especially if readership and sales have declined on Brand New Day.

As it was once pointed out, Peter and Mary Jane as a couple are pretty much enriched into American psyche (thanks to the movies), so it's inevitable that they will be a couple once again some day... just not a married one.

 

[farmernudie]

Who wants to see a married Pete and MJ, DATING again tho?

Again, been there, done that.

They won't let them back together, and if they do, it will be married.

But, again, the whole point of this agenda is to SEPERATE them. Not just to slowly bring them back. (unless enough fans put there feet down and do not except this mess.)

 

[Brand]

Boy... that's insulting... when has anyone here praised The Other? I know I didn't do it.

Well, stillanerd did say while it was going on. I wasn't here at the time, but The Other didn't start out too badly, so it's possible you or some of the others praised it at first.

As it was once pointed out, Peter and Mary Jane as a couple are pretty much enriched into American psyche (thanks to the movies), so it's inevitable that they will be a couple once again some day... just not a married one.

That sorta defeats the whole purpose of that "Peter has to be a swinging bachelor so we can tell stories about other women" excuse Marvel used.

Also, I have no interest in seeing Peter and MJ dating again, especially if they're just going to be breaking up and getting back together over and over. After what we've seen from them in the past, it seems like such a waste of their characters.

 

[Blader5489]

Spider-Man still retained the number of readers to keep it going though.

A 90% drop is retaining readers?

I'm curious about your comment, blader, with the "declining sales were the impetus for the continued marketing direction of the series." comment which I'm fairly confused about.

Bad sales lead to a string of marketing gimmicks all with the purpose of rejuvenating those sales. Because of Spider-Man's plummeting numbers, the marketing guys at Marvel essentially took the wheel and mandated several gimmicks (e.g. "Web of Carnage") in order to draw in readers. On top of that, marketing also mandated several meaningless stories (like the Scarlet Spider spin-offs), which, as I said before, only served as padding and made the Clone Saga much longer than it needed to be.

 

[moraldeficiency]

A 90% drop is retaining readers?



Bad sales lead to a string of marketing gimmicks all with the purpose of rejuvenating those sales. Because of Spider-Man's plummeting numbers, the marketing guys at Marvel essentially took the wheel and mandated several gimmicks (e.g. "Web of Carnage") in order to draw in readers. On top of that, marketing also mandated several meaningless stories (like the Scarlet Spider spin-offs), which, as I said before, only served as padding and made the Clone Saga much longer than it needed to be.

You're just being argumentative about the first point. I said sales dropped across the board. We all know that. I also confessed lack of knowledge which I hoped you'd enlighten me about rather than just explain the precentage in a previously stated post. And ten percent of marvel's flagship could very well still keep it going if it was still doing well in relation to other books.

I get what you're saying with the second point though a lot of that just made me think of the last two years when they decided to @uck up pete's life so they could make this SOS change. They lost people, got desperate by piling on further crap, finally fixed it (awkardly, but they had few options with the corner they were in). People eventually came back. That might very well happen here if enough boycotting happens (too early to tell).

Still if you have some numbers (I looked, not too hard, but couldn't find much) as far as spider books dropping in relation to other books (you'd need several to prove a trend), then I stand corrected as I often do.

 

[spider greg]

Well, stillanerd did say while it was going on. I wasn't here at the time, but The Other didn't start out too badly, so it's possible you or some of the others praised it at first.

I was here and quite frankly, I remember nothing but hate for the story. It was the first time I ever considered dropping Spider-man.