Can a Modern day world exist and thrive without the Concept of Money??

[Ahura Mazda]

As SuBe indicated above, there is no way you can eliminate money unless you elimnate the rarity of objects. We live in a world of limited resources which therefore have value. Money has always existed and before it did there was the barter system which was another way of allocating value.

Therefore unless everything became abundant there will always be a need to ascertain value to it and therefore the need for money.

 

[November Rain]

I think you should put yourself first, because you won't be able to help anyone when you can't help yourself, then worry about other people, because you can't watch your own back forever.

I've got mixed feelings about this.

When you work for a company and you really stand by what they do, you should be working for the best interest of the company and have a shared goal with all the other employees. With this thinking you do your best but its for the goal rather than for any personal gain. When others can understand your vision, they too will start supporting you.

In short, I don't think you have to be worried about your back when everyone is on the same page AND I also think working for an external cause you believe in (rather than self development) is a far greater reward.

The problem of course with bringing money into the equation is that you can never be sure those who are working there aren't only there for the high salary, nor can you be sure that the minimum wage you may be providing at the other end of the spectrum will be enough to support those who do believe in the cause. YOu normally end up in this mucky compromise.

A little off topic, but even if you got rid of all the money in the world, there would be a new concept that people would value. Sex, entertainment, action figures or other toys, there will always be something of value to this world. Money just made currency universal and easier to value.

The world can live without money, just not value.

All the things you listed are somewhat still external influences or stimuli to provoke an emotional response.

Why not provide some sort of internal commodity on self awareness, art, Information, Wisdom, Knowledge and the persuit of Happiness.

many of us our ignorant to the reasons why we response to our world around us, So many issues could be dealt with via a better understanding of self and others.

The current system has us too focussed trying to obtain external stimuli but then controls the demand of it in order to keep us productive. It also causes quite a lot of problems along the way. I actually think productivity would go up if you had people placed where they wanted to work rather than where paid more/enough to support their lifestyles.

 

[November Rain]

As SuBe indicated above, there is no way you can eliminate money unless you elimnate the rarity of objects. We live in a world of limited resources which therefore have value. Money has always existed and before it did there was the barter system which was another way of allocating value.

Therefore unless everything became abundant there will always be a need to ascertain value to it and therefore the need for money.

But not all rare objects share equal value though.

 

[SLVRSR4]

I liked Sartre and Kierkegaard more when I first started getting into philosophy. Then Nietzsche and Camus ruined me.

Nietzsche came off to me as pompous, but Camus was just crippling depression and he was trying to not be depressing.

 

[Mutagen]

I've got mixed feelings about this.

When you work for a company and you really stand by what they do, you should be working for the best interest of the company and have a shared goal with all the other employees. With this thinking you do your best but its for the goal rather than for any personal gain. When others can understand your vision, they too will start supporting you.

In short, I don't think you have to be worried about your back when everyone is on the same page AND I also think working for an external cause you believe in (rather than self development) is a far greater reward.

The problem of course with bringing money into the equation is that you can never be sure those who are working there aren't only there for the high salary, nor can you be sure that the minimum wage you may be providing at the other end of the spectrum will be enough to support those who do believe in the cause. YOu normally end up in this mucky compromise.





All the things you listed are somewhat still external influences or stimuli to provoke an emotional response.

Why not provide some sort of internal commodity on self awareness, art, Information, Wisdom, Knowledge and the persuit of Happiness.

Those were just examples, there will always be a need for something better; the opposite sex, games, as well as all the things you mention. Like I said, the world can live without money maybe, even currency, but a world without trading and value cannot be possible. Even in the animal kingdom, there are symbiosis, and animals that eat the pest of other animals.

many of us our ignorant to the reasons why we response to our world around us, So many issues could be dealt with via a better understanding of self and others.

The current system has us too focussed trying to obtain external stimuli but then controls the demand of it in order to keep us productive. It also causes quite a lot of problems along the way. I actually think productivity would go up if you had people placed where they wanted to work rather than where paid more/enough to support their lifestyles.

It basically comes down to choice, will you be happier with the expensive things you will be able to get, by working in an environment that is not fun? Or will you give up those things to have the workload lifted and have less stress?

Some people don't mind working harder to achieve their goals in the long run. If we choose what everyone should be doing it becomes less an act of freedom, but we get a fair exchange, I suppose.

 

[Danalys]

i'm going to say no just cause you said modern day. and even tho you had exceptions in your first post i find those exceptions clash with modernity.

i do think the state of the world can change to a point where money is not required tho.

 

[November Rain]

please elaborate, I'm interested in hearing about what you think that state would be and what may be the catalyst to change it

 

[Majic Walrus]

Nietzsche came off to me as pompous, but Camus was just crippling depression and he was trying to not be depressing.

Both of those statements are true. It's why I liked them so much.

 

[Showtime]

It's pretty much been ingrained into most societies since the dawn of time and is the motivation (or at least short term motivation) for many of us to participate in certain organisations, to work and to keep in line while having something aspirational to aim for.

Now could a prosperous society exist without money, or any real form of trade. It includes bartering, commodity or placing any real value on external objects

For the sake of argument, let's say a society has all the necessary raw materials in order to live a sustainable life without the need to import/export labour, information, raw materials or refined products.

Discuss but please attempt to think outside the box here, the concept of money has been instilled in us for millenia so it may not be as easy to imagine a world without it initially.

Discuss First, I'll share my views along the way.

Great thread. I would love a society that included some form of bartering.

 

[BlackLantern]

There will always be someone that wants more than what other people have...be it money, goods, or property....

 

[Hobgoblin]

Obviously no one is going to do something without somehow being compensated. The deed performed would merit a compensation of equal value. If I do a job, what job is done in return to me? If I build something, will something be built for me? Who will determine that the "payment" (for lack of a better word) is equal to the job I performed?

If I build a house with three bedrooms, and in return, I get a house with two bedrooms, have I been cheated? And what about the materials used to build that house? If I need so many thousands of nails, what is proper compensation for those nails? And what about the person who makes the nails? What can they get as compensation from the person who "buys" the nails? Remember, everything must have equal value. What is equal value to a nail?

See how it gets tricky? A single monetary unit that everyone agrees has value makes life so much easier. Sure there is compensation in prostitution (everyone likes sex) but who is the prostitute? What if you arent attracted to him or her? Drugs? Not everyone does drugs.

 

[Majic Walrus]

I will now Devil's Advocate:

Obviously no one is going to do something without somehow being compensated. The deed performed would merit a compensation of equal value. If I do a job, what job is done in return to me? If I build something, will something be built for me? Who will determine that the "payment" (for lack of a better word) is equal to the job I performed?

What if the payment is simply feeling good about doing it? It's something that you love doing so you enjoy doing it.

In return everything ever is free because they are all just doing things that they want to do as well.

If I build a house with three bedrooms, and in return, I get a house with two bedrooms, have I been cheated? And what about the materials used to build that house? If I need so many thousands of nails, what is proper compensation for those nails? And what about the person who makes the nails? What can they get as compensation from the person who "buys" the nails? Remember, everything must have equal value. What is equal value to a nail?

Again your compensations come from satisfaction and the fact that everything is free. Also in this case it's important to note that everyone will only be using exactly what they need not what they want. No mansions, only suitable housing to each according to his/her needs.

See how it gets tricky? A single monetary unit that everyone agrees has value makes life so much easier. Sure there is compensation in prostitution (everyone likes sex) but who is the prostitute? What if you arent attracted to him or her? Drugs? Not everyone does drugs.

Easier? No. Simple? Yes.

 

[BlackLantern]

What if the payment is simply feeling good about doing it? It's something that you love doing so you enjoy doing it.

In return everything ever is free because they are all just doing things that they want to do as well.

I'm going to be as polite as I can....What ****ing world are you living in?? seriously....are people still this optimistic about society?? I don't know where you all live, but I live in the northeast CT to be exact so Im in between Mass and NY.....and we're a bunch of greedy, materialistic bastards....the CT Food Bank was almost empty this year because donations were down 25 to 30 percent....volunteer work in general is down in this area....people are concerned with paying their bills and saving what they can.....its pretty dog eat dog lately

 

[SuperFerret]

Yes, a modern day world could exist and thrive without the concept of money. It will just be so different from our world that it's nearly impossible to envision what it would be like.

 

[Majic Walrus]

I'm going to be as polite as I can....What ****ing world are you living in?? seriously....are people still this optimistic about society?? I don't know where you all live, but I live in the northeast CT to be exact so Im in between Mass and NY.....and we're a bunch of greedy, materialistic bastards....the CT Food Bank was almost empty this year because donations were down 25 to 30 percent....volunteer work in general is down in this area....people are concerned with paying their bills and saving what they can.....its pretty dog eat dog lately

lol. It's the only way it could work. It would never actually happen, ever. But here's the way it WOULD happen if it ever did.

From each according to his abilities to each according to his need is a soud motto, the only thing is you have to strongly enforce it. Which turns into a dictatorship.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I will now Devil's Advocate:



What if the payment is simply feeling good about doing it? It's something that you love doing so you enjoy doing it.

Thats pretty naive.

 

[Scarlet spidey]

If there is no money, there is no reason to work, if there is no reason to work then nothing gets done.

 

[SuperFerret]

If there is no money, there is no reason to work, if there is no reason to work then nothing gets done.

Survival is reason enough, and all money is is just a way to survive now. Remove it now, and no, it couldn't work, as is seen by the responses that say it couldn't work. We're all ingrained with the knowledge of how the world works, and it being dependent on money.

However, as I've said, if you remove money from history, we'd still be here, we'd still have a society, but it'd be vastly different from anything we can imagine, as the concept of currency has been a part of our species for a relatively long time.

 

[Timstuff]

I think most coomunism and socialist regimes are that in name only and because of the times have to operate in a monetary environmnet

Well the thing is that most pure scientists/engineers aren't necessarily motivated financially. Researchers and academics get paid didly squat in comparison to others

the only real inventors that make any money are ones that break away from establishments but most of their findings aren't lifestyle necessitities, rather things to make our lives more convinient, gimmicky products.

Again, a large part of innnovation is brought about via military application and military engineers and scientists don't get paid enough.

I think if most engineers were left to their own devices and had their other basic needs provided for, they could work without monetary reward. So that deals with numero uno.

2 and 3 are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

it all depends on your idea of bettering.

My dad is an engineer, and I think you might have a misconception of what draws people into the fields of science. In my dad's case, he became an engineer because science is something he was good at, and it was convenient for him to get into that line of work. A lot of non-scientists and pretentious philosophers tend to believe that scientists do what they do because they want to make humanity better, but the fact of the matter is, it's a job like any other. Obviously, if you have the brains to be be able to choose your career, then you're going to picks something you enjoy and have a passion for. However, having basic needs met is not really enough for most scientifically minded people. Most people want a house in the suburbs with 2.5 kids and a big TV, and that doesn't really change just because someone's a scientist and not a artist, doctor, lawyer, businessman or factory worker.

 

[Matt]

Long answer yes with a but...

Short answer no.

 

[Scarlet spidey]

Survival is reason enough, and all money is is just a way to survive now. Remove it now, and no, it couldn't work, as is seen by the responses that say it couldn't work. We're all ingrained with the knowledge of how the world works, and it being dependent on money.

However, as I've said, if you remove money from history, we'd still be here, we'd still have a society, but it'd be vastly different from anything we can imagine, as the concept of currency has been a part of our species for a relatively long time.

The only other way I can see society working without money is through a barter system, which I would still classify as money.
This chicken is worth one tire.
This $50 dollar bill is worth one tire.
Or this 5oz bar of Silver is worth one tire.
Money comes in many different forms.

 

[SuperFerret]

The only other way I can see society working without money is through a barter system, which I would still classify as money.
This chicken is worth one tire.
This $50 dollar bill is worth one tire.
Or this 5oz bar of Silver is worth one tire.
Money comes in many different forms.

"I can see" are the key words here, as I said, it's hard to imagine. Closest I can come is this: Groups of people would be smaller, with everyone working to provide food, shelter, etc. for the group. I have no idea what the effect on worldwide society would be, or if it'd even exist.

 

[Scarlet spidey]

"I can see" are the key words here, as I said, it's hard to imagine. Closest I can come is this: Groups of people would be smaller, with everyone working to provide food, shelter, etc. for the group. I have no idea what the effect on worldwide society would be, or if it'd even exist.

But the key word(s) of the question was "Modern Day" How would the internet exist, and how would computers exist?
Yes, some semblance of society could exist without an economy of any sort, but would it be anything like modern day society? Probably not.
Who can say for sure though?

 

[SuperFerret]

But the key word(s) of the question was "Modern Day" How would the internet exist, and how would computers exist?
Yes, some semblance of society could exist without an economy of any sort, but would it be anything like modern day society? Probably not.
Who can say for sure though?

Only the Fonz knows. Perhaps the Shadow as well.

 

[November Rain]

My dad is an engineer, and I think you might have a misconception of what draws people into the fields of science. In my dad's case, he became an engineer because science is something he was good at, and it was convenient for him to get into that line of work. A lot of non-scientists and pretentious philosophers tend to believe that scientists do what they do because they want to make humanity better, but the fact of the matter is, it's a job like any other. Obviously, if you have the brains to be be able to choose your career, then you're going to picks something you enjoy and have a passion for. However, having basic needs met is not really enough for most scientifically minded people. Most people want a house in the suburbs with 2.5 kids and a big TV, and that doesn't really change just because someone's a scientist and not a artist, doctor, lawyer, businessman or factory worker.

Yes but most people who practice engineering aren't solely good with it and our generally good with numbers as well.

it's this skill that makes them an asset to the banking and financial world and they try and get many of them to be come auditors etc...

so while engineering is still just a job for a lot of people, it's not always the most convinient or the best paid considering the inate skills an engineer has.

You would assume people would do the highest paid job for the lowest paid effort. Now i'm not in finance but on a production factory floor, it can get fairly stressful when customers realise one of the things you've sold them has failed safety criteria. Plus sites aren't always located in the most glamourous cities or locations and commutes and time away from your family can take its toll. The pay isn't great either.

I've had alot of people simply go into finance after a masters because their in debt and the pay is much better.

For everyone who has stayed in it, there must be some sort of internal mechanism which makes the concept of it seem justifiable and reduce their financial drive.