Comics Can Spider-Man be saved?

[Gregatron]

What does everyone think? Is it possible that Spider-Man's legacy will somehow, someday retreive it's lost lustre, or will the character sink further and further into oblivion with each new embarrassment/insult/wrong turn inflicted upon him?

Is Spider-Man...the REAL Spider-Man, a character once beloved the world round, gone forever? Is he beyond saving from the actions of the narrow-minded writers/editors and idiotic fans who would destroy all that made him so great? Does that character even EXIST anymore, perhaps merely buried under tons of worthless, horrifying new powers/origins/costume/history and mischaracterizations?

Please discuss, and describe your reasons for your stance on the issue.

 

[Dragon]

Marvel can certainly be saved. They've been around for going on 50 years and their foundation is good. Dedicated, talented people that look at the characters and fans as more than lab rats they can screw with for s**** and giggles could pull Marvel out of its rut. Whether or not that will happen is another matter.

 

[stillanerd]

Well, as long as the books are selling high (and, yes, Amazing Spider-Man has apparently sold a lot of copies--although one does have to factor in those varient covers) then Joe Q and Marvel probably feel that they can just keep doing what they're doing. But sooner or later, the readers will get a little tired of the gimmicks. And that's when the writers and editors will HAVE TO start fixing the problems they themselves created when they thought they we're imporving things.

As for Spider-Man himself, I think it's possible to get him back on track, although it would be a challenge. Short of actually revamping the entire Marvel Universe a la Crisis on Infinite Earths/Infinite Crisis (although I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel doesn't try it down the road) Peter Parker is not going to be a young single college student again--at least if MJ isn't killed or they deage him somehow first. With that in mind, future writers have to not only know the character's history and respect it, treat it as backstory, write the character in character, and move on from there with stories that are a balance between comedy and pathos, nothing grim and gritty--and for God's sake NO MORE TOTEMS!

 

[The Joker]

Can Spider-Man be saved?? After what I just read,I'm starting to wonder....

But I'll say yes.That's what retcons are for.Though Spidey's going to need a truck load of them at this rate.

 

[Gregatron]

Well, as long as the books are selling high (and, yes, Amazing Spider-Man has apparently sold a lot of copies--although does have to factor in those varient covers) then Joe Q and Marvel probably feel that they can just keep doing what they're doing. But sooner or later, the readers will get a little tired of the gimmicks. And that's when the writers and editors will try to start fixing the problems they themselves created when they thought they we're imporving things.

As for Spider-Man himself, I think it's possible to get him back on track, although it would be a challenge. Short of actually revamping the entire Marvel Universe a la Crisis on Infinite Earths/Infinite Crisis (although I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel doesn't try it down the road) Peter Parker is not going to be a young single college student again--at least if MJ isn't killed or they deage him somehow first. With that in mind, future writers have to not only know the character's history and respect it, treat it as backstory, write the character in character, and move on from there with stories that are a balance between comedy and pathos, nothing grim and gritty--and for God's sake NO MORE TOTEMS!

Before the Spectator Boom of the 90s, Marvel's cancellation point for a book was 100,000 copies sold per issue. At its peak, Amazing Spider-Man sold around 400,000-600,000 copies. Today, it's barely holding firm at 70,000-80,000 copies.

But everything's great, right? Sales have never been better, right?


Fact is, writers have tried for decades now to "fix" Spider-Man, and nothing has worked. In fact, things have gotten much, much worse. I think moving Peter to college starting the ball rolling, Gwen's death created a firm foothold, the marriage was catastrophic, and the Clone Saga/Reboot/JMS stuff shattered the mythos for good.

Byrne and Mackie wanted to use the Shaper of Worlds to undo everything and get Peter back into high school (but with memories of everything he'd experienced since then). That's looking better and better to me all the time.

 

[stillanerd]

Before the Spectator Boom of the 90s, Marvel's cancellation point for a book was 100,000 copies sold per issue. At its peak, Amazing Spider-Man sold around 400,000-600,000 copies. Today, it's barely holding firm at 70,000-80,000 copies.

But everything's great, right? Sales have never been better, right?

And I agree. The speculator boom combined with the grim n' gritty and Image fads almost ruined the comic book industry. What's even more ironic is that Joe Q is restorting to some of the gimmicks of the 90s to sell books, including bringing back Liefeld's Heroes Reborn Universe for the upcoming "Onslaught Reborn" mini. And the sad thing is, as long as they percieve the sales go up for this stuff, then they'll keep cranking it out.

Fact is, writers have tried for decades now to "fix" Spider-Man, and nothing has worked. In fact, things have gotten much, much worse. I think moving Peter to college starting the ball rolling, Gwen's death created a firm foothold, the marriage was catastrophic, and the Clone Saga/Reboot/JMS stuff shattered the mythos for good.

Byrne and Mackie wanted to use the Shaper of Worlds to undo everything and get Peter back into high school (but with memories of everything he'd experienced since then). That's looking better and better to me all the time.

Well, Peter in college was probably the ideal set-up for him, not too young and not too old either, and you certainly have some validity with regards with the other three examples--although I definately agree with the last one.

As for Byrne and Mackie Shaper of Worlds idea (probably didn't go through with because of then EIC Bob Harras, which is why we ended up with Chapter One and the reboot instead) that makes me wonder whether Marvel fans would've gone along with a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" scenario with Marvel. Although one can certainly ask "If they can get away with it for DC, why not Marvel?"

 

[Shin-Natsume]

id say, he just wakes up from a dream and we are back into spider-man before the 90s...
and just continue after tha. simply forget everything from tha period till now...

THEN he can be saved somehow...

 

[Dragon]

After seeing the spoilers from FNSM #7, I'm reconsidering my vote.

 

[Gregatron]

And I agree. The speculator boom combined with the grim n' gritty and Image fads almost ruined the comic book industry. What's even more ironic is that Joe Q is restorting to some of the gimmicks of the 90s to sell books, including bringing back Liefeld's Heroes Reborn Universe for the upcoming "Onslaught Reborn" mini. And the sad thing is, as long as they percieve the sales go up for this stuff, then they'll keep cranking it out.



Well, Peter in college was probably the ideal set-up for him, not too young and not too old either, and you certainly have some validity with regards with the other three examples--although I definately agree with the last one.

As for Byrne and Mackie Shaper of Worlds idea (probably didn't go through with because of then EIC Bob Harras, which is why we ended up with Chapter One and the reboot instead) that makes me wonder whether Marvel fans would've gone along with a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" scenario with Marvel. Although one can certainly ask "If they can get away with it for DC, why not Marvel?"

To paraphrase what a wise man once said: "At Marvel, we don't need to reboot our characters. We got 'em right the first time".

What once was and is now no more merely needs to be restored. We don't need yet another "new spin" or "reboot" or "revamp". A cosmic time warp that would restore what has been lost would be acceptable. A cosmic time warp that would rewrite or "put a new spin" on past history would NOT be acceptable.

 

[stillanerd]

^^^
Ah, I see. Go back in time to a point, say the start of the Secret Wars, and then make it seem like everything after that point never actually happened.

After seeing the spoilers from FNSM #7, I'm reconsidering my vote.

No kidding. And I'll have to add another notch to my "worst moment in Spider-Man history" list.

 

[Effect]

Can he be saved?

Wheren't people already claiming that Ultimate Spider-man Peter Parker/Spiderman was more Peter/Spidey then the current 616 version and had been for a while?

I had a weird thought recently. If Marvel was somehow able (no matter how unlikely this is to happen mind you, just go with this for a moment) to basicly insert the Ultimate Spider-man verison into the 616 universe and did away with the 616 version and removed the Ultiamte verison from the Ultimate Universe (bring Kitty, Aunt May, and MJ along I say) but set things up so that they fit and meshed with the current Marvel 616 universe. What would you reaction be? What do you think the general reaction would be?

Cause in a way it would be like Marvel basiclly washing their hands of 616 Spidey in favor of the Ultimate verison but the U version becomes the new 616 version (with an already built in fan base that might consist of U version Spidey fans and a lot of 616 fans). Not getting into the problems of meshing this with other heros and what remains of 616 Spidey's life and how others would react to this new Peter, MJ, Aunt May and Kitty (can't leave her hehe). Do you think it could possibly work if done the right way? Would that be acceptable as a way of "saving" Spider-man instead of wasting time doing retcon after retcon, trying to undo events, etc??

Or should I just walk away, well run away now, for even suggesting this?

 

[imdaly]

Can Spider-Man be saved?



As long as you have a memory card or HDD!

 

[Dyeathrose]

I still want to be optimistic, as long as Marvel could get on the ball and focus on what's important, not the sales for the earth-shattering events or varient covers, but the ability to hold a good story, no matter how many or few comics it takes. Though, with the FNSP spoiler...I almost wanted to put no.

Can he be saved?

Wheren't people already claiming that Ultimate Spider-man Peter Parker/Spiderman was more Peter/Spidey then the current 616 version and had been for a while?

I had a weird thought recently. If Marvel was somehow able (no matter how unlikely this is to happen mind you, just go with this for a moment) to basicly insert the Ultimate Spider-man verison into the 616 universe and did away with the 616 version and removed the Ultiamte verison from the Ultimate Universe (bring Kitty, Aunt May, and MJ along I say) but set things up so that they fit and meshed with the current Marvel 616 universe. What would you reaction be? What do you think the general reaction would be?

My general reaction would not be a happy one; what I had heard when Marvel first planned the Ultimate Universe (or this could've been my assumption) was that is was a chance to take the backstories of the Marvel classics and deage it back to the beginning, so instead of interfering with 616, there was something fresh and new for people to read if they didn't want to go back through all the old stories. I thought that was a great idea, so that way titles like Spider-man could go forward without reheshing the past and not worry about if he's getting too old, etc. Even with all the problems in 616, I wouldn't want to see the two combined; there's too much gap difference between age, and doing so would also need to effect the X-Men universe (granted, I'm not too sure what's going on with Kitty there, other than the occassinal snark at Emma, I just flip through the comics), so it would take more to do that than just retcon in my opinion.

Cause in a way it would be like Marvel basiclly washing their hands of 616 Spidey in favor of the Ultimate verison but the U version becomes the new 616 version (with an already built in fan base that might consist of U version Spidey fans and a lot of 616 fans). Not getting into the problems of meshing this with other heros and what remains of 616 Spidey's life and how others would react to this new Peter, MJ, Aunt May and Kitty (can't leave her hehe). Do you think it could possibly work if done the right way? Would that be acceptable as a way of "saving" Spider-man instead of wasting time doing retcon after retcon, trying to undo events, etc??

Or should I just walk away, well run away now, for even suggesting this?

As I said, I wouldn't want Marvel to take away the 616 universe, I love the past stories there are, and many of them are still classics and wonderfully constructed in my eyes. Ultimate was supposed to bring a spin to change up the stories [IE: Gwen's death, Venom/Carnage, etc.] and make it set in current times where new readers could relate in a sense. I do like Ultimate, and collected a number of back issues, but I also love 616, and wouldn't want to see it go.

No, don't run for suggesting it, it's not a bad idea, I just don't think it would be a very popular one, after all, the basis of Ultimate had to come from 616.

 

[LarryLegend]

At this point, I like the make everything up to 98 cannon and reboot from there idea. No JMS and the dreck of the last 8 years.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Yes, Spider-Man can be saved if only he puts his faith in the lord-a Jesus-a! He must give himself over to Christ's love and only then will he be healed-a! Praise the lord! Take pitty on the wrechtes who serve you! Can I get an A-amen!

 

[Cullen]

Yes. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Batman, Superman, and a ton of DC characters went through rough patches and have come through to better tales. Same could happen here.

 

[Cullen]

Yes, Spider-Man can be saved if only he puts his faith in the lord-a Jesus-a! He must give himself over to Christ's love and only then will he be healed-a! Praise the lord! Take pitty on the wrechtes who serve you! Can I get an A-amen!

AMEN! (God I wis I thought of this post.)

 

[SouLeSS]

I suppose they could retcon everything that happened in the Marvel Universe for the past 15 years, but why would they do that?

 

[hulkamania85]

I have this paranoid feeling that they're throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks so that they can eventually phase out 616 for Ultimate and people won't complain at that point.

Of course Spider-Man's legacy will continue, people will just forget the bad storylines ever happened. Simple as that.

 

[Cyclops]

Can it be saved? Of course.

Marvel needs to get their priorities straight. We don't buy their books because of the shocking events, or the continuity swap-ups, or the costume changes, or the power changes.

We buy because of the characters. Get writers who care about the characters, and who are more interested in telling good stories instead of leaving their mark on Spidey's history and Spidey will be saved. Simple as that.

In simpler words, PUT DAN SLOTT ON A SPIDER-MAN BOOK.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Agreed, Slott = The Spider Messiah

 

[Cyclops]

He's just like, the only guy in the whole industry who remembers that comicbooks can be fun.

Not heavy-handed Millar propaganda, not convoluted history-altering JMS bunk, not character misinterpreting Bendis hooey, but honest-to-God fun reads!

 

[SpideyInATree]

This is a tad overdramatic, don't you think? Like Spider-Man is really dying and nobody will care about him anymore.

I happen to see the exact opposite happening. I see people who weren't normally into Spider-Man getting into it. So, isn't that what Marvel comics wants to do? Get newer readers for the book so that it can go on? Because not all of Spider-Man's long time fans are going to outlive their favorite character.

Can I understand fans concerns? Of course. A lot of fans grew up with a different kind of Spider-Man that we see in the comic book now. Now, when you were a teen, little kid, etc, things were different, right? You got older, a little wiser, and had some fun in between. People grow up. So do our favorite ficitional characters. The way I see it Marvel is slowly moving the character on. Sometimes an everyman steps up and does something great for the world and gets recognized for that. Does it change him? Well, it depends on his personality. But would Peter Parker change? No. And through Sins Past, The Other, a new suit, and new powers. Has Peter Parker's character changed? No. His surroundings have changed. His supporting cast has drastically changed. But Peter Parker is Peter Parker, always has been and always will be.

When Marvel takes that away from the Spider-Man comics...THEN we'll talk about Spider-Man being saved. But right now I just see an overreaction from fans who just don't enjoy what's going on. Nothing wrong with being upset with what's wrong but talking like Spider-Man will seriously DIE because you personally don't like the story...that is being rather overdramatic, in my opinion.

 

[Herr Logan]

I honestly now believe that it's better off dead. It's clearly not dead right now, and it won't be cancelled any time soon. What it needs "saving" from is the disease it's ridden with (most of you know what I'm talking about, so I won't bother rambling on about it). The only certain cure for a $hitty life is death.

I don't see Spider-Man as strictly being a period piece-- as in best suited for the 60's and 70's-- but since a few questionable decisions were made (I'm not talking about anything that happened in the last 8 or so years... those aren't "questionable," those are just plain wrong, period) and the writers and editors of the past era haven't been able to handle it, it's better off dead. As far as I'm concerned, arrogant hacks like JMS and Bendis can never truly take away what has come before. They don't have the skill or drive to make their trashy little retcons make sense and fit with known history, so that's not the problem. Still, it would be better if the stories now immortalized in back issues and trade paperbacks of all kinds were just left alone as great works of fiction in American literary history. Those early stories more than deserve that level of consideration, regardless of narrow-minded views of comics.

The biggest "questionable decision" I'm thinking of is Peter getting married. Spider-Man definitely worked better as a single, not-yet-fully-mature superhero. It's not about keeping him available for countless love interest stories, but about keeping him more flexible and in less of a monotonous routine. Mary Jane truly is a ball and chain, as pretty much any spouse would be. Heroes like Cyclops and Jean Grey already work together and actually lived together from the very beginning of their comic series, so that's not a major change. It's different with Spider-Man.

I got into comics well after Spidey had been married and started his decline, and I was attracted by the dynamic action and the humor. Years later, looking at the early issues, I see there was something truly brilliant there, that I couldn't have appreciated as a child.

Sherlock Holmes fans probably wouldn't appreciate amoral writers and editors screwing with their favorite character with watered-down and trashified "modern" stories. I can't blame the people who decided Spider-Man and the rest of the Marvel universe was going to live on when future writers couldn't handle it, and from a marketing perspective, obviously that was the right choice. Still, from a literary perspective, this dog won't hunt no more and should be taken out behind the barn and put out of its misery.

 

[Flonk]

He's in trouble? I'm loving the Spidey books right now. How quickly you people forget the Byrne/Mackie years.