Comics Can Spider-Man be saved?

[Abaddon]

Meaning what?

If that's another term for "TiVo'd," then you and I are done talkin'.

Try not reading so much into things.

First off, he didn't die. A master of special effects and illusion, who knows what Daredevil's capabilities are, seems to blow his brains out in front of the hero. Right, I'll buy that. If Adrian Toomes can beat cancer, so can Quentin Beck.

Second of all, I don't really know how the Cosmic Cube works, but for Mysterio to screw with the entire Marvel Universe so that several years of bad writing happened when it shouldn't have, he'd need something more than his Soundstage o' Tricks. Hell, it wouldn't have to be Mysterio. I only tossed that name out there because he was my magic answer to 'Sins Past.' He could have been behind that, but not everything else that's happened at Marvel that shouldn't have. It should probably be someone with a little more ambition and vision than Mysterio, truth be told.

Kosmos.

 

[Cullen]

I agree with Cullen, jaydawg, and wolvie 2020.

Congratulations. You'll all be recieving stickers later on.

Hurray!

 

[Cullen]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.

Oh look, post envy!

Don't worry. With a lot of hard work and training, you too might have a post worthy having.

Er... post count worth having. Yeah. That's what I meant

 

[Herr Logan]

Try not reading so much into things.

No can do.

Kosmos.

Uh huh.

 

[LarryLegend]

How about it was a dream (worked for Dallas, haha)?

 

[shinlyle]

Exactly. People can't be so naive or play down how talented comic book writers can be. Super-Man, Wonder-Woman and Batman between them have had DECADES worth of bad story telling, but they all seem to have been revamped, 'fixed,' and also pioneered new comic book directions. Spidey can have they same.

Unforunately, as with ANY charachter that has continuous serials lasting this long, MAJOR hiccups are bound to happen. I'm not saying saving him will be easy, or happen quick, it's going to take someone 1st steering things in the right direction. It's then going to take other people following suit, being like minded, and having a genuine love for the charachters.

Look at what the guys @ DC are doing with IC. While I do think a lot of it is more than a tad forced, and just straight up corny sometimes, it is working for the DCU. Sales have gone nuts for their company, they're getting respect for being bold, (or as I think, finally catching up,) and best of all, people who love the DCU are gong nuts about this. And most importantly, when they do kill a charachter, you get a feeling of something big has just happened. And you do feel sad. Charachters I never even knew existed I'm feeling sorry for

Many people said that this couldn't be done, but it has been, and DC doing this takes a hell of a lot more work than fixing Spidey.

All we need now is for the people who say that they hate the stories, to just stop buying them! That would help a great deal

As always, man, you're response says what I think!

Can he be saved? Absolutely! I wouldn't be posting my contempt for the powers that be at Marvel if I didn't think my favorite hero could be brought back from the brink! If the fight was over, I'd move on.

But it's comics! The fight is always on...things can always be changed, and the wrongs can always be righted....and for that reason alone, I'm still here with you guys hoping that Marvel wakes up from their money-making haze and realizes that they're living off of hype...and when the hype fades....people will read these storied a little more closely, and they'll realize how bad things have gotten...and then we may head into another "Dark Age" like we did in the 90's.

Can he be saved....yes. Will he be saved? Absolutely! Will he be saved soon....

...that is the real question.

 

[Dangerous]

The only way SM can be saved is if a good team comes onto ASM who are genuine fans themselves can see the SM titles for the terrible mess they are right now and then spend a year ret coning Sins Past onwards.

I really hope this happens eventually, but the longer things go on as they are (Joe Q and JMS at the helm) there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink.
Will it get to a point were there is too much mess to be cleaned up?
Is there any writer out there who could be a candidate for writing SM and cares as much as we do about the situation?
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to that...
Maybe, just maybe Loeb/JSC could fix the mess over a period of time..

 

[dan1]

Two words for you. Spider-Mobile.

I didn't say he physically couldn't drive.

I have an even more obscure one then that, Web of Spider-Man #28.

But....what I was saying was he never drove in the city to work as Peter Parker, legally.

Spider-mobile was obviously illegally driving, you can't have a legal Drivers' License with a Mask on.

Now getting a license at the DMV, etc. would have made for Character Building, continuity enriching and would have been a pain for Peter, it would have been a great addtion.

But JMS didn't know or care that Peter never did that, and just assumed that Peter drove to work in a car.

 

[shinlyle]

Yeah, I mean, you have 11,000 posts in a comic book forum. Your life must be amazing.

Wow.....you have actually posted the most pathetic post of the year.

He's a loser for posting here 11,000 times...yet you're posting on an internet message board to say it....

Idiot.

 

[shinlyle]

I didn't say he physically couldn't drive.

I have an even more obscure one then that, Web of Spider-Man #28.

But....what I was saying was he never drove in the city to work as Peter Parker, legally.

Spider-mobile was obviously illegally driving, you can't have a legal Drivers' License with a Mask on.

Now getting a license at the DMV, etc. would have made for Character Building, continuity enriching and would have been a pain for Peter, it would have been a great addtion.

But JMS didn't know or care that Peter never did that, and just assumed that Peter drove to work in a car.

Also, for those who use the "Peter drove a motorcycle" argument, you need a different liscense to drive a motorcycle than to drive a passenger vehicle. One liscense doesn't mean you automatically get the other.

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

 

[Herr Logan]

The only way SM can be saved is if a good team comes onto ASM who are genuine fans themselves can see the SM titles for the terrible mess they are right now and then spend a year ret coning Sins Past onwards.

I really hope this happens eventually, but the longer things go on as they are (Joe Q and JMS at the helm) there seems to be no limit to the depths they will sink.
Will it get to a point were there is too much mess to be cleaned up?
Is there any writer out there who could be a candidate for writing SM and cares as much as we do about the situation?
I'm not sure I want to know the answer to that...
Maybe, just maybe Loeb/JSC could fix the mess over a period of time..

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull$hit to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

 

[shinlyle]

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull$hit to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

Exactly.

Marvel's main problem lies witht he fact that they refuse to admit they made a mistake. In their eyes, it's their character, and they can do whatever the hell they want to with him. We fans don't count.

If we can get a new EIC in there....one who respects the work of those who created the Marvel Universe, then MAYBE we can begin to un-f*** all of this mess.

 

[Herr Logan]

Also, for those who use the "Peter drove a motorcycle" argument, you need a different liscense to drive a motorcycle than to drive a passenger vehicle. One liscense doesn't mean you automatically get the other.

Also, how does Peter, who has almost NO money, and can web-sling anywhere he wants, justify owning a car he would BARELY use, and maintaining the taxes, tags, insurance, and not to mention the cost of parking that car in New York City every year. That's lot of money for something you don't use....assuming that car is "paid for".

This isn't strictly canon, but in that Spider-Man novel by Diane Duane that featured the Lizard and Venom (I think it was called 'The Lizard Sanction,' Peter was said to have a driver's license that he seldom used, but put it to use when he went to Florida on a photo assigment and rented a car.

There's nothing incredible about Peter having a driver's license. What should have been addressed is Peter spontaneously owning a car.

 

[The Joker]

I'd be all for Mysterio being used as a retcon,only if it was Quentin Beck that did it.I don't like the new Mysterio guy.I hate pretenders.

It's got to be the original or nothing.But the problem is that Beck is dead.....

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd be all for Mysterio being used as a retcon,only if it was Quentin Beck that did it.I don't like the new Mysterio guy.I hate pretenders.

It's got to be the original or nothing.But the problem is that Beck is dead.....

Beck is a pretender. One of the best, supposedly.

Seriously, I totally agree. I wouldn't dignify anything that came out of 'The Evil That Men Do.' It was a $hitty story. Yes, there was some noble intent behind some of the monologuing, but it ruins the effect if it's at the expense of character consistency.

Spider-Man gets webbed up with his own web-shooters by a woman who isn't nearly as strong or fast as he is? The Black Cat has a brand new motivation for becoming a thief, when she already had one? Yeah, you can go screw yourself, Kevin Smith, 'cuz I ain't buyin' it. Next time you want to educate the comics-reading population on rape, you do it with your own characters and don't try to make us feel sympathy for a person who was raped and then became a rapist. Also, don't ever say that comics is a priority to you over movies when you spend three years making $hitty films designed to hook your pet actors up with pretentious, overly-defensive pop stars, leaving a crappy miniseries half-finished only to have the second half be ten times worse than the first.

*achem*

Anyway, I don't disparage what Kevin Smith did with Daredevil, though. He got rid of that untrustworthy, skank junky Karen Page, and Mysterio in no way definitively died at the end. There's just no reason at all why a man whose forte is casting illusions can't fake his death when he knows how to fool the hyper-senses of the person he "kills" himself in front of. Even if he did have terminal cancer, so did Adrian Toomes. The Vulture is more badass than Mysterio could ever hope to be, but regardless, he could pull it off. This is the Marvel Universe, where the death rate has only just exceeded the ressurrection rate.

I say, have the real Mysterio kill the new fake one and be done with it. Does that seem like a waste of those last couple pages of 'The Evil That Men Do'? Newsflash, the whole story was a waste of dead trees and printer ink. Let's get back to basics and leave the bull$hit dead and buried.

 

[Gregatron]

Yep, we just gotta inject "realism" into those crappy, one-dimensional characters that Lee and Ditko created, right?

No one read the books until they became realistic. All that old crap needs to be reinvented for a new generation and made KEWL. I'd rather see Mysterio commit suicide than vex Spider-Man with amazing illusions. We should worship at Kevin Smith's feet for turning those stupid characters into flawed, realistic ones.


Oh.


Wait.


I forgot.


We live on earth.


And on earth, writers who do things like that are bad.

 

[Herr Logan]

Yep, we just gotta inject "realism" into those crappy, one-dimensional characters that Lee and Ditko created, right?

No one read the books until they became realistic. All that old crap needs to be reinvented for a new generation and made KEWL. I'd rather see Mysterio commit suicide than vex Spider-Man with amazing illusions. We should worship at Kevin Smith's feet for turning those stupid characters into flawed, realistic ones.


Oh.


Wait.


I forgot.


We live on earth.


And on earth, writers who do things like that are bad.

I wasn't defending Kevin Smith with regard to 'Guardian Devil.' I'm just saying that it goes without saying that Mysterio could well be alive, and since there's the potential for him being back again someday, I'm assuming that he is alive. I assume the same for Eddie Brock. No body, no death, and even that test isn't reliable in comic books as far as proving someone's dead.

By the way, I've started reading your essay on Osborn and Gwen Stacy. Interesting stuff.

 

[Gregatron]

I wasn't defending Kevin Smith with regard to 'Guardian Devil.' I'm just saying that it goes without saying that Mysterio could well be alive, and since there's the potential for him being back again someday, I'm assuming that he is alive. I assume the same for Eddie Brock. No body, no death, and even that test isn't reliable in comic books as far as proving someone's dead.

By the way, I've started reading your essay on Osborn and Gwen Stacy. Interesting stuff.

Thanks. Spread the word.


By the very nature of the character, it's true that Mysterio could fake his death, but from my understanding of all parties' accounts, Smith intended Mysterio to really kill himself.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thanks. Spread the word.


By the very nature of the character, it's true that Mysterio could fake his death, but from my understanding of all parties' accounts, Smith intended Mysterio to really kill himself.

He also probably "intended" to finish that trashy miniseries on time in the beginning. Oh well.

There's no way to definitively kill someone like Mysterio. They could "Rasputin" his ass (kill him in a variety of ways all at once or consecutively) and there would always be that chance that he switched with another person or replica all the way up to the last moment before he was in true peril. Even when the time comes to run tests to verify it was Quentin Beck, it could be a clone or him, or the medical examiner or other personel handling the evidence could be Mysterio or agent(s) thereof so the evidence would be tampered with, or any method of fooling people one could think of. Hell, you could have Daredevil, Wolverine and every other hyper-senses hero sniff him and it would turn out to be a specially developed spray-on Beck scent. Anything is possible.

Mysterio is basically on par with Doctor Doom when it comes to inventive genius, has a reasonable amount of wealth, and loves to screw with people's heads. I'll never believe he's permanently dead, unless some omnipotent and omniscience being specifically goes gunning for him. Even then, he could be lying.

Kevin Smith's intentions are worthless to me, since he obviously doesn't have enough respect not to mess with other people's characters' histories or otherwise do his job properly.

Sorry, that anger wasn't directed at you, but at all the sleazy, self-serving writers who've screwed up what used to be an amazing and wonderful fictional universe.

 

[Gregatron]

He also probably "intended" to finish that trashy miniseries on time in the beginning. Oh well.

There's no way to definitively kill someone like Mysterio. They could "Rasputin" his ass (kill him in a variety of ways all at once or consecutively) and there would always be that chance that he switched with another person or replica all the way up to the last moment before he was in true peril. Even when the time comes to run tests to verify it was Quentin Beck, it could be a clone or him, or the medical examiner or other personel handling the evidence could be Mysterio or agent(s) thereof so the evidence would be tampered with, or any method of fooling people one could think of. Hell, you could have Daredevil, Wolverine and every other hyper-senses hero sniff him and it would turn out to be a specially developed spray-on Beck scent. Anything is possible.

Mysterio is basically on par with Doctor Doom when it comes to inventive genius, has a reasonable amount of wealth, and loves to screw with people's heads. I'll never believe he's permanently dead, unless some omnipotent and omniscience being specifically goes gunning for him. Even then, he could be lying.

Kevin Smith's intentions are worthless to me, since he obviously doesn't have enough respect not to mess with other people's characters' histories or otherwise do his job properly.

Sorry, that anger wasn't directed at you, but at all the sleazy, self-serving writers who've screwed up what used to be an amazing and wonderful fictional universe.

I share this pain and rage, friend.

 

[Dangerous]

It wouldn't take a year to retcon 'Sins Past.' Let Mysterio (the real one, not that rape-victim-turned-rapist from Kevin Smith's self-indulgent piece of revisionist trash) return to the limelight (because it wouldn't take even so much as a full comic panel of explanation to show how he didn't actually die) and take credit for that mess.

It really would be that simple. Would that make a good story? Who cares, as long as they don't make things worse and put that bull$hit to rest, permanently. They can sweep that under the rug like the Clone Saga.

I would not care about a good story per say if it was just ret coning for the sake of fixing stuff.
Mysterio would be good for SP, but I want SP onwards fixed/undone.
The Other, leave Avengers, rebuild Forrest Hills etc etc... it would take a fair while to un do all the damage straz has birthed.

 

[Herr Logan]

I would not care about a good story per say if it was just ret coning for the sake of fixing stuff.
Mysterio would be good for SP, but I want SP onwards fixed/undone.
The Other, leave Avengers, rebuild Forrest Hills etc etc... it would take a fair while to un do all the damage straz has birthed.

They could go two different ways, from my point of view:

1) Rewind everything to a point several years ago where things didn't suck and just roll forward like the rest of it never happened. I'm fine with that.

2) Spend a few months deliberately and straightforwardly "fixing" everything bad in the Marvel Universe that came out of the recent past (however many years is the right amount) in a huge crossover event called "Cleaning House."

Either way, all that Grant Morrison/Chuck Austen crap with X-Men, JMS bull$hit with Spider-Man, Brian Michael Bendis nonsense with the Avengers, etc. would be stricken from the record and those authors should be blackballed from Marvel.

 

[dan1]

Hey, ya got me thinking.

Peter could wake up in some burial grounds, ala Kraven Epic, and heads back to USA. But not on an Avengers jet, on foot, sea, motorcycle.


He gets home to find Ezekial drugged him, left him for dead, then with some magic mumbo jumbo (can deal with this for a bad guy) Ezekial lifted some essence from Peter.

He also knew he'd lose himself and be more like Peter during the transformation, and with his assistants working around the clock, his objective of getting close to the Avengers' cash flow would be fool proof. Just "be" Peter and don't think about anything else, until your assistants snap you out of it.

His assistants had a bull ***t Morlun go after him so he'd let out the stingers and evolve into an even bigger threat.

So he's been posing as Peter all along and he actually has those Stingers in his arms, he had sex with MJ , he has been PURPOSELY kissing Iron Mans' ass, 'cause he is the Lex Luthor of the Spider-Man universe, not Osborn.

Hey "It's business kid."

This way, every crap thing that is out of character or not possible (stingers in forearms, hunter mentality) was actually inherent to Ezekial, and Peter was the product of fate and a science radiation experiment gone awry for him and a little Spider all along (duh).

Peter comes back to his Aunts' house blown up, his Aunt sleeping with the Avengers butler, Iron Man thinking he was Peters' boss, and a new Tougher Villian.

All that and he was not even there for the Cr*pfest which was Sins Past.

So he can immediately smell bull**it right away.

He'd say "I slept with Gwen, the Timeline doesn't fit, MJ, you got suckered and I am pissed at you for not telling me this, even though it isn't true, what if it was, you could have left 2 innocent lives to perish, that I could have saved."

But the Twins end up being recent genetic constructs of Gwen and Norman DNA, test tube style and therefore the only Sin left was MJ being suckered and Ezekial too ignorant to know better.

Bam! Obviously a little tweaking would be needed but it fixes Peter's wimpy attitude, Sins Past and the Other in one swoop.

 

[C. Lee]

How about your a complete ****tard and unless you see therapy, you wont be saved?

How about....you are extremely rude and unless you stop it you won't be saved?

One of the first things you did when you got here was to post a link to the Maddox site where he drug Christopher Reeve through the mud.....so I suggest you rethink who among us needs therapy.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Spidey could be saved when Marvel stops raping him...