'Cash for Clunkers'

[moraldeficiency]

I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to say. It didn't put money into anyone's hand. Low income families who rely on used cars saw a sudden increase in prices due to this program. As far as helping the environment it is almost nill to none. You've destroyed like a couple billion dollars with no payoff, other then rape the wallets of low income earners.

This is stimulating middle class purchases by aiding sales. Sorry it will help the envirnment long term and save people gas money, it just will through the process of common sense. This is one of the things funded least in the bailout package and so far it's been the most successful using the least amount of money. It was so successful they had to get extra people just to process it. Being better than expected used to be a good problem. If you're figuring in terms of waste this holds no candle to what we do with no benefit in so many other areas. There are so many things wasting more money without any benefit why are we *****ing about the one effective program?

Ok I'll address the money thing. First off c4c only addressed certain purchases. So for any cars not sold on the program the dealership got it's standard money. They have to wait for the bonus to make sure they aren't ripping off the program and our money. They will get it though it's just a question of waiting. So what we have here are dealerships which either wouldn't be selling **** at all with the same overhead or dealerships making some profits (factory incentives, money off interest, money extra from program) or a dealership making none, cause if they were selling cars at a normal rate outside the program they would still be doing fine (they aren't). So whats better, doing some buisness getting some money and having to wait for the rest, or getting no buisness and no money? It's not that hard to decide between the two. I want my money now, but unfortunately in buisness sometimes you have to wait a bit to get that check, it's called life, noting except for credit card bills ever run effectively and before their time.

Look I'm sorry (In a very small way) the dealerships are having trouble, but it's not my responsibility or the govs to kiss their bottoms and make them feel special. This is the first thing that's gotten customers into their doors in a long time, if the gov needs extra time to process all of this (which is partially their fault for flooding the air waves with "BIG BIG SALES COME ON IN TODAY AND DON'T MISS OUT!!!") so we don't get ripped off by scammers I'm fine with it. They could have limited the number of c4c sales or done a number of things but instead they jammed asses to seats at a rate they knew was much higher than predicted and just assumed the gov would like next day process it? Boo ****ing hoo, be glad you got something, I'm sure there are plenty of industries that would love a program like c4c right now.

 

[Paradoxium]

You spend billions so car dealers get shoddy customers who will get repo'ed down the line, to get less than two days worth of emissions saving, and not really help the domestic sales in the overall picture (with the expected september plunge)

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200908271428DOWJONESDJONLINE000666_FORTUNE5.htm

All this increased spending initiatives despite the fact unemployment (when you include discouraged job seekers) is basically 16% or so now and it hasn't improved. You want more people to spend and not get a productive jobs that addresses the trade deficit, and bring back in some wealth. Best of all, you add to the deficit all while in a deflationary period of all times.

Yes common sense.

 

[moraldeficiency]

And this is different from before when car dealers jammed people into cars and payment's they couldn't afford because? Oh yeah, because now at least some of these people will be able to keep these cars, that is different.

That two day thing is dependent on so many factors it's laughable at best.

So they go back to selling nothing again after a nice boost. Again, boo ****ing hoo, better to have some money coming in then none.

Hey dealerships aren't the big employeers they make themselves out to be and I agree this program isn't helping everyone, but it's made people less afraid of purchases and putting some money back into the economy which I think we all agree is a much needed thing.

I don't want people to have productive jobs? When did I say...what are you implying... you know never mind by that statement you're obviously out of talking sense and now just saying I'm this or that way just to smear, congrats. Hey do me a favor and just post my logical response after each of yours since you know me so well. Gracias.

 

[Paradoxium]

Some keeping doesn't negate the problem of the moral hazzard. Nevermind most banks have a liquidity problem, adding to that sure as hell won't help. Afterall, they finance and/or repo things.

The reason they don't make sales is their part of the industry is a malinvestment to begin with. Retail sales and service jobs are in an excess, and stimulating growth this is assine logic. The resources are being withheld because of this malinvestment.

You want these types of things liquidated out of the system and reinvested properly in actual areas of need. Such as areas that are export driven. The only one that really benefited from c4c are the Japanese since it helps their exports. So in this sense, yes you want don't want people to have productive job. You are encouraging stimulus of the wrong kind.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That japenese agruement is funny as hell. The markets aren't that cutoff. Most of a harley is made in japan, most of a honda is made in the US.

I love you're still telling me what I want and think. You haven't the faintest, but saying that pretty much means you're out of things to say to the topic and now you're at the point of the argument where you just tell me what I am and what I want to invalidate me. Awesome. Do me a favor and just respond to yourself with what I'm going to say cause we be done on this, I love debate but what you're doing is remotely anything of value.

 

[Paradoxium]

Ok let's try it this way:

You said:

This is stimulating middle class purchases by aiding sales. Sorry it will help the envirnment long term and save people gas money, it just will through the process of common sense. This is one of the things funded least in the bailout package and so far it's been the most successful using the least amount of money.

Hey dealerships aren't the big employeers they make themselves out to be and I agree this program isn't helping everyone, but it's made people less afraid of purchases and putting some money back into the economy which I think we all agree is a much needed thing.

Hopefully this is all in the full and proper context.

And lets pretend for the sake of the argument and best case scenario it actually works. You drive up sales, and you help the environment.

Ok?

The jist of what I am saying is, people have no business making more purchases let alone stimulating this.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Dude I said we were done, you go ahead but leave me out of it, the minute you start telling me what I think and what I want your opinion doesn't matter to me anymore. We be done, tell someone else what they think, I hate when people do that ****.

 

[dnno1]

I never said this will destroy the economy. Don't put words in my mouth.

Waste of money is waste of money. It's not like it is helping the environment as a net result. All you've managed to do is give Japan more money and create a few unnecessary moral hazards. Now the governments down the line will have to take care of that mess. As for the "jobs creates and saved" those numbers are ******** if you know how they came up with it.

You said that we "are repeating the same subprime thing all over again". If you remember that story (and it wasn't long ago) it almost destroyed not only our economy, but the economies of the entire world. The CARS program is hardly anything near that. As far as Japan and their share of the pie is concerned, remember they have assembly plants here in American that employ's Americans, so it is actually a win-win situation.

As for how the numbers for jobs created/saved goes, this is coming from the White House Council of Economic Advisers who are a group of respected economists. I would trust what they say over any politically biased opinion (especially from a guy who listens to off base quacks and is half the time wrong about what he posts). If you took the number of cars sold (about 700 thousand) and multiplied it by the average price of a car here in the U.S. ($28,400), then divided that number by $13.3 trillion (last years GDP) you would get about .15 % of GDP. Using their rule of thumb (for every 1% of GDP you create 1 million jobs - an accepted ratio among economists) that would equate to $150,000 jobs create/saved, but, since there is only a quarter of the year that that would apply to you would have to drop that number by 1/4 - meaning about 40,000 jobs will be created/saved (by my calculations). So it sounds kind of right.

 

[dnno1]

You spend billions so car dealers get shoddy customers who will get repo'ed down the line, to get less than two days worth of emissions saving, and not really help the domestic sales in the overall picture (with the expected september plunge)

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200908271428DOWJONESDJONLINE000666_FORTUNE5.htm

All this increased spending initiatives despite the fact unemployment (when you include discouraged job seekers) is basically 16% or so now and it hasn't improved. You want more people to spend and not get a productive jobs that addresses the trade deficit, and bring back in some wealth. Best of all, you add to the deficit all while in a deflationary period of all times.

Yes common sense.

Your hypothetical presumes that these so called shoddy customers will be going back to gross polluting cars. Unfortunately you forget that about 700,000 of those were taken out of the system, hence the average emissions should be higher. As far as unemployment goes, that is a lagging indicator and will take a while before we see some significant improvement. Who said that a productive job had to address the trade deficit to improve the economy? Didn't our economy improve under Bush and his cronies while we had a trade deficit?

 

[moraldeficiency]

So I just saw on the news the gov said they'll pay for all the c4c money by the end of this month. Good stuff.

 

[Kelly]

How is the "Cash For Clunkers" a success when...

Ford is the only car company that has actually gained from it?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well you could ask all the dealerships about to go under before this. Or you could frame it as a success for all the people that will save money on gas. Or you could frame it as a success for families that were able to get a new car which works well for their family rather than hoping their old piece of **** wouldn't break down and **** them over. Or in terms of the benefits of these machines not polluting everything. Or as one small step towards getting us less completely addicted to oil usage.

Any of those. I thought the money we gave car companies were supposed to help them. This small amount for this program was intended to help the envirnment, make people less afraid to purchase in this economy, help us pollute less and save on gas while giving people that need a new car but can't afford it a bit of a hand. This program wasn't about helping ford sell cars or any other company, this was about helping consumers, the envirnment and getting people out of their turtle shells.

 

[Kelly]

Well you could ask all the dealerships about to go under before this. Or you could frame it as a success for all the people that will save money on gas. Or you could frame it as a success for families that were able to get a new car which works well for their family rather than hoping their old piece of **** wouldn't break down and **** them over. Or in terms of the benefits of these machines not polluting everything. Or as one small step towards getting us less completely addicted to oil usage.

Any of those. I thought the money we gave car companies were supposed to help them. This small amount for this program was intended to help the envirnment, make people less afraid to purchase in this economy, help us pollute less and save on gas while giving people that need a new car but can't afford it a bit of a hand. This program wasn't about helping ford sell cars or any other company, this was about helping consumers, the envirnment and getting people out of their turtle shells.

The thing is, some of those dealerships are still going to go under, because they now have no stock.....no money in the bank to pay their employees this month....

Also, Chrysler dropping 15% and General Motors dropping 20% THAT MEANS....they didn't sell the cars......THAT'S the problem. So, Chrysler and GM dealerships are still going to close....

 

[BatMatt]

How is the "Cash For Clunkers" a success when...

Ford is the only car company that has actually gained from it?

Beause Ford is American

 

[Kelly]

Beause Ford is American

Chrysler and GM aren't?

 

[BatMatt]

Chrysler and GM aren't?

I was being sarcastic

 

[moraldeficiency]

The thing is, some of those dealerships are still going to go under, because they now have no stock.....no money in the bank to pay their employees this month....

Also, Chrysler dropping 15% and General Motors dropping 20% THAT MEANS....they didn't sell the cars......THAT'S the problem. So, Chrysler and GM dealerships are still going to close....

All money will be paid by the end of this month, I just posted that. Also the rebate wasn't the total sale in any of those cars so they still had direct money coming both from the consumer and the factory. They'll have the rest of the money by the end of the month, better have that than no money, no customers which means no buisness.

Chrysler and GM have been so bloated and crappy for so long a possible few good months can't mean **** either way. We're stearing towards efficiency over flair again and that's a good thing. Not every company has the right to exist, if you **** up enough that's just that. It's not like the Japanese company's don't hire a **** load of US citizens and keep buisness here in all sorts of ways. This stuff goes in cycles and eventually the US will be back to making great cars again.

 

[Marx]

I think Ford really benefited from the 'Clunkers' program.

 

[Kelly]

All money will be paid by the end of this month, I just posted that. Also the rebate wasn't the total sale in any of those cars so they still had direct money coming both from the consumer and the factory. They'll have the rest of the money by the end of the month, better have that than no money, no customers which means no buisness.

Chrysler and GM have been so bloated and crappy for so long a possible few good months can't mean **** either way. We're stearing towards efficiency over flair again and that's a good thing. Not every company has the right to exist, if you **** up enough that's just that. It's not like the Japanese company's don't hire a **** load of US citizens and keep buisness here in all sorts of ways. This stuff goes in cycles and eventually the US will be back to making great cars again.

You do realize that those dealerships have already missed a payday....some have missed 2.

Owners of these dealerships have said in interviews that they were in the hole at the moment anywhere from 300,000 to 1.5 million depending on the size of the dealership....in the hole.

 

[Kelly]

I think Ford really benefited from the 'Clunkers' program.

They did because they had planned ahead, like a good company should....and have more fuel efficient cars that fell under the "Cash for Clunkers" list of cars.....

Isn't it also interesting that they didn't take the US up on its offer of help.....

 

[Marx]

They did because they had planned ahead, like a good company should....and have more fuel efficient cars that fell under the "Cash for Clunkers" list of cars.....

Isn't it also interesting that they didn't take the US up on its offer of help.....

I think alot of people have even more respect for Ford because of all of this.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You do realize that those dealerships have already missed a payday....some have missed 2.

One, partially their fault for selling too much on the program when they weren't promised the money would be reimburesed immediately.

Two and really the only point the matters. These were people going out of buisness that now are not and they'll have enough money to pay their employees the money owed now. Isn't that better than no job and no money and being unemployeed? It seems like a no brainer to me. These dealerships got greedy with the program and clouded everything up so it took a bit longer to process the claims, boo ****ing hoo, it wasn't like the gov. promised them money immediately. The gov. never ever, never ever? never ever! promises that to anyone so why would they get that when no one else does? I've waited three months for gov. money to be paid to me. They do pay but sometimes you have to wait for things, that's life. Hell I've waited two years and three court battles to get one contractor to pay me before, so the gov. is fast in comparison to some.

 

[SuBe]

White House Fires Back at Critical Cash for Clunkers Report

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...rogram-cost-taxpayer-vehicle/?test=latestnews

The White House fired back Thursday to a report that claimed taxpayers paid $24,000 per vehicle sold under the government's "Cash for Clunkers" auto program, calling the study a "faulty" analysis that "doesn't withstand even basic scrutiny."

 

[Paradoxium]

24k? How disappointing, I thought the losses would be bigger. The government is losing it's touch at losing money

 

[SuBe]

$24,000 Tax Dollars spent PER CAR sold!!!!! That is re-freaking-diculous. That is Government Efficiency! And we want to give our Healthcare over to these jug-heads?