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Discussion: Torture

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Gonking

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US backs 'torture' methods to question terror suspects

ANDREW PICKEN (//=0;i-=2){d+=unescape('%'+e.substr(i,2));};document.write(d);//]]> [email protected])
TOUGH new interrogation laws allowing sleep deprivation and induced hypothermia have been passed by the US senate.
Members have backed President George Bush's controversial bill designed to prohibit blatant abuses of detainees but does grant him power to decide what interrogation techniques are permissible.
Human rights groups have said the techniques border on torture.

Bush's Republican party has also been criticised for rushing through the laws to spotlight their tough stance against terrorism in time for parliamentary elections in November.
The new legislation will also set up special tribunals to question and try the hundreds of suspects being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. A Supreme Court ruling in June said that the original military tribunals set up by the Bush administration to prosecute these detainees were unlawful.
Another piece of legislation passed in the United States yesterday means the president will be able to order surveillance on a suspect without going to court for approval. Both laws could reach the president's desk within days to be signed into law.
Democrats said the Republicans' rush to muscle the measure through Congress was aimed at giving them something to boast about during the forthcoming election campaign for control of the House of Representatives and Senate. "There is no question that the rush to pass this bill, which is the product of secret negotiations with the White House, is about serving a political agenda," said Democratic Senator Edward Kennedy.
But Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who helped draft the legislation during negotiations with the White House, said the measure set up a system for treating detainees that the nation can be proud of. He said the goal "is to render justice to the terrorists, even though they will not render justice to us".
The interrogation laws establishes military tribunals that would give defendants access to classified evidence being used to convict them, and allow limited use of evidence obtained by coercion.
The new Republican-backed spying legislation outlines when and how a president can order warrantless surveillance. The president would be permitted to do so, for example, after an "armed attack", "terrorist attack" or when the president deems there is an "imminent threat".
Backers contend the legislation would bolster congressional oversight and better protect civil liberties. But critics claim it expands presidential powers and further threatens the rights of law- abiding Americans.
"Hidden in the fine print are provisions which grant the administration authority to maintain permanent records on innocent US citizens, giving it new authority to demand personal records without court review, and terminating any and all legal challenges to unlawful wiretapping," said John Conyers, top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee.
Heather Wilson, a New Mexico Republican and chief sponsor of the measure, said the bill would protect the nation as well as individual liberties.
She said: "Intelligence is the first line of defence in the war on terror. Excesses are best prevented when the intelligence activities are operated within a framework that controls government power by using checks and balances among the three branches of government."


And here is a video of Hilary Clinton rejecting the bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXxednKNtg
 
****ing disgusting. :down
Days like these make me feel ashamed to be an American.
 
hippie_hunter said:
How does sleep deprivation count as torture?

Are you insane?
Tell you what. I'll come over to your house and everytime you start to fall asleep, I'll poke you and yell at you to keep you from sleeping for, oh, 2 or 3 days and then let me know how you like it.
 
hippie_hunter said:
How does sleep deprivation count as torture?

There are no silk pillows.

I have no opposition to the principle of torture as long as it's about making people uncomfortable and not actually injurious.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Are you insane?
Tell you what. I'll come over to your house and everytime you start to fall asleep, I'll poke you and yell at you to keep you from sleeping for, oh, 2 or 3 days and then let me know how you like it.

He still won't submit to your advances.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
Are you insane?
Tell you what. I'll come over to your house and everytime you start to fall asleep, I'll poke you and yell at you to keep you from sleeping for, oh, 2 or 3 days and then let me know how you like it.

Then isn't every kind of interogation technique a form of torture?

Do people honestly expect to to gather information from another person this way?

Interrogator: What do you know?
Interrogatee: I'm not talking!
Interrogator: What d oyou know?
Interrogatee: I said I'm not talking!
Interrogator: Well he's not talking
Guy in Charge: Well, we'll try again another day.
 
War Lord said:
There are no silk pillows.

I have no opposition to the principle of torture as long as it's about making people uncomfortable and not actually injurious.

Or painful.
 
hippie_hunter said:
Then isn't every kind of interogation technique a form of torture?

Do people honestly expect to to gather information from another person this way?

Interrogator: What do you know?
Interrogatee: I'm not talking!
Interrogator: What d oyou know?
Interrogatee: I said I'm not talking!
Interrogator: Well he's not talking
Guy in Charge: Well, we'll try again another day.

I actually recently read a report on this, specifically on some experiment done in prisons in the 70s. It was very fascinating, but the thing that really struck me was the fact that torture proved consistently ineffective, while humane treatment often got the necessary info.
 
hippie_hunter said:
Then isn't every kind of interogation technique a form of torture?

Do people honestly expect to to gather information from another person this way?

Interrogator: What do you know?
Interrogatee: I'm not talking!
Interrogator: What d oyou know?
Interrogatee: I said I'm not talking!
Interrogator: Well he's not talking
Guy in Charge: Well, we'll try again another day.

I never even said I'm against all forms of torture. I'm just saying, sleep deprivation is torture, if it's kept up long enough.
It drives you mad, screws with your chemistry and is very physically painful, again, if the duration is longish.
 
hippie_hunter said:
Do people honestly expect to to gather information from another person this way?

Interrogator: What do you know?
Interrogatee: I'm not talking!
Interrogator: What d oyou know?
Interrogatee: I said I'm not talking!
Interrogator: Well he's not talking
Guy in Charge: Well, we'll try again another day.

so, let's torture him...
 
hippie_hunter said:
Or painful.

It depends on the kind of pain. Water torture techniques aren't just uncomfortable because you feel like you're being suffocated.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I never even said I'm against all forms of torture. I'm just saying, sleep deprivation is torture, if it's kept up long enough.
It drives you mad, screws with your chemistry and is very physically painful, again, if the duration is longish.

Where is the Rebel Base? :cmad:

han-torture3.jpg
 
JLBats said:
I actually recently read a report on this, specifically on some experiment done in prisons in the 70s. It was very fascinating, but the thing that really struck me was the fact that torture proved consistently ineffective, while humane treatment often got the necessary info.

Sure, if you have months or years to get the information. If you only have a few days, humane treatment isn't that effective.
 
Wilhelm-Scream said:
I never even said I'm against all forms of torture. I'm just saying, sleep deprivation is torture, if it's kept up long enough.
It drives you mad, screws with your chemistry and is very physically painful, again, if the duration is longish.

I'm not saying to keep them away to end up like that. I'm refering to mild sleep deprivation.
 
I'll ask someone who has actually experienced torture to see if it really works in getting USEFUL info, though I doubt Senator McCain will read my letter.
 
War Lord said:
It depends on the kind of pain. Water torture techniques aren't just uncomfortable because you feel like you're being suffocated.

I think that nearly all forms of pain should not be used for interogation techniques.
 
bill designed to prohibit blatant abuses of detainees but does grant him power to decide what interrogation techniques are permissible.

SoOoOo, as long as it's not blatant, it's ok?

Heather Wilson said. . ."Intelligence is the first line of defence in the war on terror. Excesses are best prevented when the intelligence activities are operated within a framework that controls government power by using checks and balances among the three branches of government."

Yet, oddly enough, her vote went towards a bill designed to manipulatively sidestep the checks and balances already in place. :whatever:

"Hidden in the fine print are provisions which grant the administration authority to maintain permanent records on innocent US citizens, giving it new authority to demand personal records without court review, and terminating any and all legal challenges to unlawful wiretapping."
Gotta love legal jargon. :down
 
War Lord said:
There are no silk pillows.

I have no opposition to the principle of torture as long as it's about making people uncomfortable and not actually injurious.

I imagine if Bush and Co. wanted to start using physical torture that caused injuries, you suddenly become OK with it.
 
Addendum said:
I'll ask someone who has actually experienced torture to see if it really works, though I doubt Senator McCain will read my letter.

If you watch those Vietnam documentaries, torture did work and it often worked well.

However, equating making somebody uncomfortable with driving bamboo up their fingernails, isn't really thinking it through correctly.
 
Matt said:
I imagine if Bush and Co. wanted to start using physical torture that caused injuries, you suddenly become OK with it.

You'll let me know when they do, won't you?
 
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