Discussion: Torture

[Kelly]

Some of these people are far from human.....

 

[Compi716]

I support torture.

There, I said it.

To those who don't...watch an episode of 24. Would Jack Bauer be able to save the country if he wasn't able to beat a few people down and shoot kneecaps and shove pens into people's legs?

Hell no!

 

[Nivek]

Some of these people are far from human.....

Yeah, well can't argue with that...

But we have to follow the rule of Law in this country. If not, we are no better than the self righteous psychos we aim to stop.

 

[StorminNorman]

Yeah, well can't argue with that...

But we have to follow the rule of Law in this country. If not, we are no better than the self righteous psychos we aim to stop.

I disagree entirely.

 

[Marx]

And we've come full circle.

Spoiler

...at least three times now.

 

[chaseter]

Yes, it will be exciting! They'll handle suspects like actual human beings who have basic human rights!

Sorry but if a member of an angry anti everything Western faction that has killed countless innocent lives is captured, I would do more than sit across from him while he doesn't say anything. It's a double edged sword. You can pyschologically torture these guys and get them to spill the beans on plans that could save lives, or you can treat them like a citizen and not get any information.

It's a very very hot button issue and I don't think there is a right answer. You can not get information and then be blamed for a future attack, if it happens, from not trying hard enough, or you can be viewed as evil for torturing these guys and getting information.

For me, I am against physical torture. Anything that physically harms people is wrong. However, I am not against psychological torture. Put them in a room with loud rock music 24/7, put them in a room that is 95 degrees 24/7, put them in a room with no light. Then, offer them the an alternative with amenities. If they don't talk, lock them in solitary for the rest of their lives.

 

[Addendum]

I support torture.

There, I said it.

To those who don't...watch an episode of 24. Would Jack Bauer be able to save the country if he wasn't able to beat a few people down and shoot kneecaps and shove pens into people's legs?

Hell no!

The only reason Jack Bauer saves the country is because it's in the script

 

[chaseter]

Jack Bauer doesn't play by the rules in the script.

 

[Addendum]

Jack Bauer doesn't play by the rules in the script.

That's in the script too

 

[Cosmic]

Yes, it will be exciting! They'll handle suspects like actual human beings who have basic human rights!

Soooo, the guy that was the mastermind behind 9/11 is human? really?.......he's a chicken **** human then, since he did man up enough to get on one of the flights....so yeah, I guess he is human.

You picked the most severe case. How many guys do you think we have locked up right now, who have done (or even planned to do) anything near the magnitude of what he did?

Some of these people are far from human.....

And some of them never actually did anything wrong, and ended up getting released, or still need to be released.

 

[Cosmic]

Sorry but if a member of an angry anti everything Western faction that has killed countless innocent lives is captured, I would do more than sit across from him while he doesn't say anything. It's a double edged sword. You can pyschologically torture these guys and get them to spill the beans on plans that could save lives, or you can treat them like a citizen and not get any information.

It's a very very hot button issue and I don't think there is a right answer. You can not get information and then be blamed for a future attack, if it happens, from not trying hard enough, or you can be viewed as evil for torturing these guys and getting information.

For me, I am against physical torture. Anything that physically harms people is wrong. However, I am not against psychological torture. Put them in a room with loud rock music 24/7, put them in a room that is 95 degrees 24/7, put them in a room with no light. Then, offer them the an alternative with amenities. If they don't talk, lock them in solitary for the rest of their lives.

You only see one side of the coin. What if the guy you're abusing isn't a terrorist? Maybe you've got the wrong guy, but you don't know it. Maybe he doesn't talk, because he doesn't know anything. Or maybe he DOES talk, but tells you a lie...anything to relieve the stress and abuse.

Also, you mention "countless innocent lives." Are you aware of the fact that many innocent noncoms in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have been wiped out by our own weapons over the past several years? Do their lives matter at all?

 

[StorminNorman]

You only see one side of the coin. What if the guy you're abusing isn't a terrorist? Maybe you've got the wrong guy, but you don't know it. Maybe he doesn't talk, because he doesn't know anything. Or maybe he DOES talk, but tells you a lie...anything to relieve the stress and abuse.

Also, you mention "countless innocent lives." Are you aware of the fact that many innocent noncoms in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have been wiped out by our own weapons over the past several years? Do their lives matter at all?

Those lives mean less to me than American lives.

 

[Addendum]

Because it's so important where mother was when you dropped out of her

 

[Hobodeluxe]

Those lives mean less to me than American lives.

 

[Kelly]

You picked the most severe case. How many guys do you think we have locked up right now, who have done (or even planned to do) anything near the magnitude of what he did?



And some of them never actually did anything wrong, and ended up getting released, or still need to be released.

I'm not one for generalities......I take things on a case by case basis.

Can some be released? sure.....release them....
Can some be put in our prisons? sure.....put them at Huntsville, and let Texas take care of them....
Can some be treated as human beings? sure....treat them in that way.
Are some sub-human as in the case I used? yes, and I sure as hell don't believe he deserves anything that equals rights in our country.

 

[StorminNorman]

The truth is that countries must place a higher value on fellow citizens than other countrymen. Does that mean that I don't care about anyone that is not American? Absolutely not. But it's impractical to think otherwise.

 

[StorminNorman]

Because it's so important where mother was when you dropped out of her

It is. Your mother brings you into this world in Ethiopia, your life is going to be much different than if she drops you out in a Birmingham Alabama hospital.

 

[Addendum]

True, but it's not like any of us had a say in it

 

[StorminNorman]

True, but it's not like any of us had a say in it

You're right, the whole process is unfair. But thats the case with most aspects of life.

 

[Addendum]

Now if I was born in another country and then moved to the US, then I would could understand being all "USA is the bestest"

But since I was born here, I'm like "meh"

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think we need to follow the rule of law.

If we mean it, that is.

Otherwise...we can justify ANYTHING if it saves lives.

I love hearing the ticking timebomb sceanario. I mean, yes...I would kill countless human lives if it meant saving my loved ones. I'd probably do anything. Maim children, kill innocents.

But does that make it right if the ends justify the means TO ME?

I dunno. I think if we allow ourselves to do some stuff, don't be suprised if we push things further a decade later.

 

[chaseter]

You only see one side of the coin. What if the guy you're abusing isn't a terrorist? Maybe you've got the wrong guy, but you don't know it. Maybe he doesn't talk, because he doesn't know anything. Or maybe he DOES talk, but tells you a lie...anything to relieve the stress and abuse.

Also, you mention "countless innocent lives." Are you aware of the fact that many innocent noncoms in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have been wiped out by our own weapons over the past several years? Do their lives matter at all?

I like how you missed the part where I said the words "double edged sword, hot button issue, and no right answer." It comes down to a choice and you can either see it as a necessary evil or you can not even see a choice because of personal morals.

I told you my opinion. We arrest and convict innocent people everyday through our justice system. That isn't the problem and that isn't the issue. What if he lies? How do we know he is lying? Why not just lie in the first place before getting tortured? I don't see the point. Any information is better than no information and the thing with lies is that you can't and won't stay consistent throughout the interrogation process.

What does the innocents lost in Iraq and Afghanistan have to do with detainees and what does it have to do with torture That is a straw man argument and a pathetic debate strategy. Eat all your food mister. There are people starving in Africa

 

[Marx]

I still do not agree with putting these gitmo detainees into the american prison system.

 

[chaseter]

I still do not agree with putting these gitmo detainees into the american prison system.

If Gitmo was a hell hole then I could see the point on a humanitary front. But, it's not and it is a lot nicer than all or most of our max security prisons here.

Why on Earth would you want to close and bring over high security terrorist detainees on American soil when we have a fully functional and operational prison where they are at right now? It is stupid and just a ploy to get people to admire him more. When people think of torture they think of Gitmo and so closing it makes him look good.

 

[Cosmic]

I'm not one for generalities......I take things on a case by case basis.

Can some be released? sure.....release them....
Can some be put in our prisons? sure.....put them at Huntsville, and let Texas take care of them....
Can some be treated as human beings? sure....treat them in that way.
Are some sub-human as in the case I used? yes, and I sure as hell don't believe he deserves anything that equals rights in our country.

Thanks for the clarification.

I like how you missed the part where I said the words "double edged sword, hot button issue, and no right answer." It comes down to a choice and you can either see it as a necessary evil or you can not even see a choice because of personal morals.

I chose not to respond to any of that, because it's a jumble of nonsense.

What does the innocents lost in Iraq and Afghanistan have to do with detainees and what does it have to do with torture That is a straw man argument and a pathetic debate strategy. Eat all your food mister. There are people starving in Africa

*Laughs* You brought it up in the first place! If YOU were the one with terror suspect x sitting in front of you, you'd do more than sit across from him!