Christopher Nolan's Howard Hughes Biopic

[Fenrir]

The cell phone sonar did feel cheap in TDK. I love the TDK, but even I found that to be a copout on how he finds the Joker. I get the dilemma, but it did feel like a device.

If by 'device' you mean something that is pulled out of nowhere, then you are mistaken. Fox gives him the sonar technology in Hong Kong. Bruce then develops it further on his own as the 'government telecommunications project' that he shuts Fox out of. How is that a copout?

 

[redfirebird2008]

Agreed. People call the film goofy because of the penguins in the park, but in the context of the film, I felt they worked. I do agree B89 suffered from being about the Joker and not really about Batman. But, I felt that Batman being one of 3 main focuses worked much better in BR, which was just an overall stronger film.

I have a big problem with the rocket launcher penguins, just like I have a big problem with Burton's 5-foot Joker pistol, Nolan's microwave emitter, SWAT/sonar, and ferry boats crap. Just for once I would like a good action climax in a Batman movie. Apparently that is too much to ask, haha.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Nolan has a knack for making the cliched, uncliche.

Take Memento for example, if you strip it off its virtuoso structure you are left with an assortment of film noir cliches.

Inception starts out as a very cliche heist set up, of course by the end it is something quite original.

The Dark Knight starts out as a cliche hero vs villain story. Ends in a Shakespearean tragedy with the hero becoming the villain.

Only Batman Begins it seems, starts out as something different only to become more and more formulaic every scene. Must be why I am not fond of it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I have a big problem with the rocket launcher penguins, just like I have a big problem with Burton's 5-foot Joker pistol, Nolan's microwave emitter, SWAT/sonar, and ferry boats crap. Just for once I would like a good action climax in a Batman movie. Apparently that is too much to ask, haha.

It's not my favorite climax to a comic movie, but I don't think it takes BR from being serious to overtly goofy. I still feel the film maintained its seriousness.

However, I loved the climax in the sewer.

If by 'device' you mean something that is pulled out of nowhere, then you are mistaken. Fox gives him the sonar technology in Hong Kong. Bruce then develops it further on his own as the 'government telecommunications project' that he shuts Fox out of. How is that a copout?

It doesn't come out of nowhere, but it feels like a cheap plot point to get Batman to find the Joker. I also feel doing this undermines Batman as a detective. Cell phone engineers did something he couldn't do, and Batman is supposed to be a detective. I feel him reasoning it out would have been more Batman.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Fenrir, I think you and I are talking about different hostage scenarios in TDK. My comparison to Batman Forever is directed at the ferry boat hostage sequence, NOT the Two-Face/Gordon sequence at the end. The Gordon/Two-Face/Batman scene at the end is amazing. It's just that the 20 minutes right before it (SWAT/sonar/ferry boats) aren't good at all IMHO. The film kicks butt for the first hour and 50 minutes, then does a huge faceplant for the next 20 minutes, and then redeems itself for the final 10 minutes.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I have a big problem with the rocket launcher penguins, just like I have a big problem with Burton's 5-foot Joker pistol, Nolan's microwave emitter, SWAT/sonar, and ferry boats crap. Just for once I would like a good action climax in a Batman movie. Apparently that is too much to ask, haha.

So you have a problem with anything fantastic in Batman movies? Maybe you shouldn't be watching them.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It doesn't come out of nowhere, but it feels like a cheap plot point to get Batman to find the Joker. I also feel doing this undermines Batman as a detective. Cell phone engineers did something he couldn't do, and Batman is supposed to be a detective. I feel him reasoning it out would have been more Batman.

They were knee deep into the third act, you wanted them to slow down and have Batman plan stuff?

Have you seen Iron Man 2?

You should never be doing slow paced prep work in the third freakin' act.

 

[Travesty]

Fenrir, I think you and I are talking about different hostage scenarios in TDK. My comparison to Batman Forever is directed at the ferry boat hostage sequence, NOT the Two-Face/Gordon sequence at the end. The Gordon/Two-Face/Batman scene at the end is amazing. It's just that the 20 minutes right before it (SWAT/sonar/ferry boats) aren't good at all IMHO. The film kicks butt for the first hour and 50 minutes, then does a huge faceplant for the next 20 minutes, and then redeems itself for the final 10 minutes.

You're also forgetting the other cliche Joker ultimatum of Harvey and Rachel blowing up. It's just like the Ferry scene, only it's two different people(ie. you can save either one, or the other).

 

[redfirebird2008]

So you have a problem with anything fantastic in Batman movies? Maybe you shouldn't be watching them.

haha, it's not that. I very much like the parade/gas/money sequence in B89. But then Burton had to bust out with that ridiculous pistol sequence. It's insulting to have Batman target the Joker with missiles and then have him completely whiff on hitting the Joker but the Joker takes out the Batwing with one shot from his clown pistol.

Hell, if you look at other sequences in these movies I enjoy them a lot. I love the Tumbler chase scenes in both BB and TDK. Both of them are pretty underrated IMHO since a lot of people bash Nolan's ability to direct action but I feel those are two of the best car chases I've seen in a long time. I love the Axis Chemicals scene in B89. Love the rigged Batmobile sequence in Returns. Love the Penguin and Catwoman characterizations in Returns, which are in and of themselves fantastical. I don't know, the climaxes for these superhero movies just never seem to live up to their own hype. Iron Man fell victim to that as well. Great flick but lousy climax IMHO.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

TDK car chase is fantastic. Better shot than any action sequence (bar the hallway) in Inception.

 

[Spider-Fan]

They were knee deep into the third act, you wanted them to slow down and have Batman plan stuff?

Have you seen Iron Man 2?

You should never be doing slow paced prep work in the third freakin' act.

No, all you needed was Batman to figure out Joker would target Harvey's criminals, and then figure out which place by the ferries he would be, and alert the police. You don't need him planning, you need 6 seconds of dialogue. It's easy. Plus, Batman all film was 1 step behind the Joker. Thematically, I feel it would have been stronger for him to figure the Joker out to some extent.

 

[bunk]

It's funny how every Nolan thread just morphs into a Batman thread. Anyway, there is a ton of Howard Hughes material that isn't even hinted at in Aviator. If Nolan is into the idea, he should go for it.

 

[redfirebird2008]

You're also forgetting the other cliche Joker ultimatum of Harvey and Rachel blowing up. It's just like the Ferry scene, only it's two different people(ie. you can save either one, or the other).

I didn't have a problem with that one because Nolan pulled the switcheroo routine out of his hat, which is a classic Joker maneuver. Tell them one address, then they show up and it turns out to be the opposite. The ferry boat scene would have worked better for me if the loud mouth guy went ahead and pulled the trigger, but it turned out to be something unexpected (possibly blow up the citizens instead of the prisoners?). Either way, the scene just didn't need to be in there. Heck, Jonah Nolan said they took it out of the script at one point but Chris told him to put it back in. Damn you Chris.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

No, all you needed was Batman to figure out Joker would target Harvey's criminals, and then figure out which place by the ferries he would be, and alert the police. You don't need him planning, you need 6 seconds of dialogue. It's easy. Plus, Batman all film was 1 step behind the Joker. Thematically, I feel it would have been stronger for him to figure the Joker out to some extent.

Six seconds of dialogue? Sounds like a cop out to me. And yet another bad use of exposition. At least the sonar gives us something more than exposition.

You're also forgetting the other cliche Joker ultimatum of Harvey and Rachel blowing up. It's just like the Ferry scene, only it's two different people(ie. you can save either one, or the other).

That's Joker's character in the film. He did it all throughout the film. Even the opening.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Six seconds of dialogue? Sounds like a cop out to me. And yet another bad use of exposition. At least the sonar gives us something more than exposition.

So could have Bruce out thinking the Joker at that point in the film.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Either way, the scene just didn't need to be in there.

No? Even though the Joker had been building towards that scenario the whole film?

That was his losing moment (at least for a minute). He had been proving himself right all this time only for the citizens to finally prove him wrong. Its not realistic, its drama.

 

[redfirebird2008]

No? Even though the Joker had been building towards that scenario the whole film?

That was his losing moment (at least for a minute). He had been proving himself right all this time only for the citizens to finally prove him wrong. Its not realistic, its drama.

And that was the best thing they could come up with to prove that point? Really? I don't have anything against drama, I just expect it to be well-executed.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Its the same thing Joker was doing only on a bigger scale. Its about natural progression, not trying to find something overly creative in detriment to the character.

 

[redhawk23]

That's how I feel about his Batman movies. Waste of creativity.

Yep, something that Nolan himself has admitted to be extremely passionate about, and has waited to make for close to a decade is a total waste of his creativity.

We need to save these directors from themselves! I mean first Tarantino finally got around to making Inglourious Basterds and now even more devious plots are on the horizon, coming in from all sides. I mean how would we live in a world where Guillermo del Toro's At the mountains of madness actually exists? I can't believe these directors having the gaul to make things they love.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm not talking about the Two-Face climax, which was well-done. I'm talking about the OTHER climax, actually the other TWO climaxes. The ferry boats scene was cliched as hell. The SWAT/sonar stuff was over the top action gadgetry for the sake of it, just like Batman Begins' ridiculous microwave emitter plot.

Yeah, but that wasn't the climax. Some general moviegoers think it was or wished it was because it was all about the Joker but it was a slight of hand trick. The final conversation isn't Batman dropping some moralization on the Joker's arse. Instead, he reveals that this was all diversion and that he just wanted Harvey to go out there and do some crazy/evil ****. The true emotional catharsis for the audience that had them on the edges of their seats by not knowing how it was going to play out was with Two-Face. When he flipped the coin and shot Batman the sound was so harsh and audible when I saw it in theaters people generally jumped not expecting that. I remember people being on the edges of their seat as that final coin flipped for the boy's life. And then the cover up....it really ended like no superhero movie before it and broke the formula.

Yes, the franchise is fortunate. He's the first live action filmmaker to give proper character development to Batman. Can't believe it took so long for someone to try it, haha. And you bring up a good point about returning for TDKR, but it will be funny to watch the Bat dorks throw him under the bus if TDKR is even remotely disappointing. Hell, it could be really good and that won't be good enough -- if for no other reason than the Joker is impossible to follow.

Here's the thing....other filmmakers could do it, but who has tried? Hollywood has been making superhero movies for a decade, not to mention the Batman and Superman films from before, and yet no one has brought the level of sophistication, class and intelligence to the genre as Nolan. Anybody could do it as the genre, as you say, is predictable...but no one has done what Nolan did. No one has turned the Joker or some other superhero villain into an Oscar worthy role. Nobody has made a superhero movie that outraged critics when it wasn't nominated for Best Picture.

Sure, someone else could do it, but why begrudge Nolan for doing what no one has bothered trying? It is obvious he loves big budget moviemaking given the scope of Inception. And he loves genre bending such as his uses of the heist film there and elements from Bond in both Inception and his Batman movies. He likes playing in genre. It's like begrudging Spielberg for making three Indiana Jones movies when he could have been doing more serious fare. Sure, but he wanted to do those movies and they were great. Arguably unequaled in adventure film yet.

 

[DACrowe]

If by 'device' you mean something that is pulled out of nowhere, then you are mistaken. Fox gives him the sonar technology in Hong Kong. Bruce then develops it further on his own as the 'government telecommunications project' that he shuts Fox out of. How is that a copout?

Visually it didn't work. But it was a thinly veiled thematic device to raise questions about the limitations of government/authority in maintaining order and security without sacrificing the rights of the individuals or the supposed principles of the society. Fox represented the principled stand against such abuses of power and Batman was the pragmatist who was willing to betray his ideals (if only "just once") to secure his state. Who is right?

It was there for social commentary. Not as a way to show a cool gadget Batman used.

 

[MiniBond]

you can bet that's gonna be his oscar magnet....t: especially if he takes a relatively unknown/has been/"great but ignored" actor to play the part !

 

[jmc]

Some weird reactions to this news. It wouldn't surprise me to see Di Caprio cast in this as Hughes again, it would seem like such a Nolan thing to do.

 

[nouan]

I really hope he gets this made. I read about this movie couple of years ago, and that Nolan wanted Jim Carrey to play Hughes, which would have been perfect. Hughes' insanity and ingenious are really fascinating subjects.

When you read all that stuff about how he was physically when he died, it gets your imagination going. He was on some f***ed up trip... And if I was to make a movie about him, I sure as hell would dwell in his compulsions and what not.

I mean when they X-rayed his body, there were broken needles inside his arms, because he must've been so out of it that, when injecting himself, he just snapped the needle inside.... sheez...

There's a tv movie made about him in 1977, starring Tommy Lee Jones, and allthough not technically very good movie, it does unveil the curtain a little bit about how he was by the end of his life.

Oh, and isn't it annoying when you are typing a message and by the time you finish it, you are logged off?

 

[Doctor Jones]

God, enough of this "cliched" ******** talk. As long as it's good and executed well I don't care if it's cliched or not.