Comics Dan Slott interview on CBR discussing the future of Spiderman...

[iloveclones]

All I'm saying is that it's a far easier job to keep continuity straight in Invincible and Walking Dead and the other titles mentioned, since they have hardly had any time to establish any. Ever notice that the comics that people vote as the greatest of all time (Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Dark Knight Returns) all take place in a world where they can establish the rules as they want? Try to write Watchmen using the Avengers or JLA and fans would have been throwing hissy fits. Write DKR as an in-continuity story, and the reaction would have been as severe.

 

[shinlyle]

All I'm saying is that it's a far easier job to keep continuity straight in Invincible and Walking Dead and the other titles mentioned, since they have hardly had any time to establish any. Ever notice that the comics that people vote as the greatest of all time (Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Dark Knight Returns) all take place in a world where they can establish the rules as they want? Try to write Watchmen using the Avengers or JLA and fans would have been throwing hissy fits. Write DKR as an in-continuity story, and the reaction would have been as severe.

Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't easier with a newer character/universe/continuity, I'm just pointing out that I enjoy the stories more when they aren't fresh due to the fact that they were restarted. I guess I'm at that point where I just enjoy stories befor ethey get so convoluted. I mean reading ASM#1-300, you really start to wonder where it went wrong.

 

[stillanerd]

Oh, I'm not arguing that it isn't easier with a newer character/universe/continuity, I'm just pointing out that I enjoy the stories more when they aren't fresh due to the fact that they were restarted. I guess I'm at that point where I just enjoy stories befor ethey get so convoluted. I mean reading ASM#1-300, you really start to wonder where it went wrong.

I'd say it was probably around the time when Marvel was trying to capitalize on the "dark and gritty" phase by making Spider-Man's world....well, more dark and gritty, e.g. having him fight superpowered serial killers (Carnage) and supernatural enemies (the demoniacally possessed Hobgoblin) for one, killing off members of his supporting cast or ignoring them altogether, and having him take place in so many team-ups that he practically became a guest star in his own book. And don't forget those wrap around, fold out, and hologram covers for the collector crowd.

The obvious sign Spider-Man was losing his way was when the blurb of Todd MacFarlane's Spider-Man title described Spidey as "The Arch-Knight," an obvious attempt to capitalize on Batman's popularity. And the writing was on the wall with the pointless slugfest known as "Maximum Carnage"--the story which I contend encapsulated all the above problems the character had in the early 90s.

 

[iloveclones]

^ That's actually a really good point. Like shin (and many others), I much preferred the days of one story reaching all the way back to AF 15. And although I'd be hard pressed to say exactly where it stopped being that way, that was the first time that I've heard the "dark and gritty" phase as being one of the culprits. And in a lot of ways, that period changed the character more than a lot of the retcons, or retcon lites, being discussed. Because then they were trying to change the nature of the character, rather than a detail or event here or there. Good call, stillanerd.

 

[stillanerd]

^ That's actually a really good point. Like shin (and many others), I much preferred the days of one story reaching all the way back to AF 15. And although I'd be hard pressed to say exactly where it stopped being that way, that was the first time that I've heard the "dark and gritty" phase as being one of the culprits. And in a lot of ways, that period changed the character more than a lot of the retcons, or retcon lites, being discussed. Because then they were trying to change the nature of the character, rather than a detail or event here or there. Good call, stillanerd.

Thanks. Notice also that around this time was when we actually started getting the major retcons in the Spider-Man comics in an attempt to get him "back to basics," such as the Clone Saga, Mackie's reboot, etc., that would eventually lead to the latest one via One More Day. It's because Marvel realized that they had gone so far off track with their flagship character in trying to appeal to a popular comic book trend that Spider-Man lost all meaning of who he was supposed to be and sales suffered for it. Even guys like Glenn Greenberg and, I believe, Tom Deflaco have admitted as much.

 

[kguillou]

^^That's very true now that i think about, Spidey's comics were very dark during the 90s. As much as i absolutely love J.M. Dematteis, his spiderman tales were downright depressing sometimes. There was a point where Daredevil was cracking more jokes than Spiderman was, granted after everything Spidey was going through during the 90's there was nothing funny to joke about.

 

[imdaly]

^^That's very true now that i think about, Spidey's comics were very dark during the 90s. As much as i absolutely love J.M. Dematteis, his spiderman tales were downright depressing sometimes. There was a point where Daredevil was cracking more jokes than Spiderman was, granted after everything Spidey was going through during the 90's there was nothing funny to joke about.

"I Am The Spider"

 

[iloveclones]

^^That's very true now that i think about, Spidey's comics were very dark during the 90s. As much as i absolutely love J.M. Dematteis, his spiderman tales were downright depressing sometimes. There was a point where Daredevil was cracking more jokes than Spiderman was, granted after everything Spidey was going through during the 90's there was nothing funny to joke about.

Yeah, I always scratch my head when people put him as a top Spidey writer, because it's those stories that I think of when I think of him. (Not that he didn't write good stories, but those are the ones that stick out to me.)

 

[Texas]

Exactly! Talk about common sense.

Ok, with statements like these (no offense intended) you guys must've hated the X-Files and the current Battlestar Galactica

 

[iloveclones]

I liked X-Files for, like, 5 minutes before it became all about the alien conspiracy. Then it was just obnoxious to me.

The original Battlestar Galactica. Accept no substitute!

 

[shinlyle]

I liked X-Files for, like, 5 minutes before it became all about the alien conspiracy. Then it was just obnoxious to me.

The original Battlestar Galactica. Accept no substitute!

PREACH IT! X-Files ruled in the pre-Aliens-are-behind-everything-days. They had some with vampires, wild-bigfoot creatures, and freaks of nature. Good stuff. Alien crap got old after they were behind everything that specifically had to do with Mulder and Scully. Why them?! ARGH!!

Never watched any BSG.

As for Spidey, I would end the Spidey glory days right about the time that Larsen left with issue #350. That was when it started feeling like work to read it. Bagley's first 8 issues on the title had guest stars in them. No solo Spidey goodness at all...and a wraparound gatefold cover to boot! Then, we get a 2 part fill in by Chris Marranan(sp) featuring Cardiac, which leads into Carnage, which has Spidey on his own for one whole issue before he has a team-up with the Human Torch, and then Venom. Then we get a Shocker fight (yay!), the Hologram 30th anniversary issue (with a great Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. story about Gwen), and then we're into Spidey-parents. We then get Maximum over-exposure...er....Carnage, and then it's onto the Spider-Slayers, which features guest-stars galore, again, and then we get a two-part Venom story that would have been awesome, had it not led to Venom being a good guy. Form there, it's build-up to the robot parents, and then....the clone saga.

Issue #350 is where the fun really started to fade.

As for Spectacular, I can't hate on JM Dematties. He gave us Kraven's Last Hunt, The Child Within, and the rest of the Harry-Goblin saga...which was FAR better than what we got from Amazing or Web or Adjectiveless, at the time.

Although, as far as guest-star books go, I enjoyed Return and Reveng eof the Sinister Six alot.

 

[iloveclones]

PREACH IT! X-Files ruled in the pre-Aliens-are-behind-everything-days. They had some with vampires, wild-bigfoot creatures, and freaks of nature. Good stuff. Alien crap got old after they were behind everything that specifically had to do with Mulder and Scully. Why them?! ARGH!!

It was such a popular show, I figured I was the only one who felt that way. It was one of those shows that I really looked forward to (in the first season).

When I tuned in from time to time, I loved how skeptical Scully still was. I mean, she had an alien baby, for Christ's Sake, but telepathy, noooooooo, you're just being paranoid Mulder.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Firefly. F battlestar galactica up it's cylon ass. (actually I didn't hate the show, but I got too bored after the first two episodes to continue)

 

[farmernudie]

I dunno, my wife and I still sit down and enjoy our X-files collection, every single season, over and over. Way better than anything on tv nowa days.
It's our very favorite show. (Tho the newest movie that just came out was a letdown really-wish i woulda written it...oy...)

Firefly-another great show.

We are enjoying Heroes alot tho...and Lost too, still.

Scrubs is my other all time favorite, besides Seinfeld, because Scrubs reminds me too much of my daily life.

 

[shinlyle]

FIREFLY OWNS ALL.

It's been scientifically proven.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Scrubs is my other all time favorite, besides Seinfeld, because Scrubs reminds me too much of my daily life.

Dude, watch "it's always sunny", it's like seinfeld only funny.

 

[moraldeficiency]

FIREFLY OWNS ALL.

It's been scientifically proven.

This is correct, I did a proof on it.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I'd say it was probably around the time when Marvel was trying to capitalize on the "dark and gritty" phase by making Spider-Man's world....well, more dark and gritty, e.g. having him fight superpowered serial killers (Carnage) and supernatural enemies (the demoniacally possessed Hobgoblin) for one, killing off members of his supporting cast or ignoring them altogether, and having him take place in so many team-ups that he practically became a guest star in his own book. And don't forget those wrap around, fold out, and hologram covers for the collector crowd.

The obvious sign Spider-Man was losing his way was when the blurb of Todd MacFarlane's Spider-Man title described Spidey as "The Arch-Knight," an obvious attempt to capitalize on Batman's popularity. And the writing was on the wall with the pointless slugfest known as "Maximum Carnage"--the story which I contend encapsulated all the above problems the character had in the early 90s.

stillanerd, you read my mind!

When I read shinlyle's post asking where it went wrong, I was going to say around the time Pete's "parents" returned.

I have said a number of times on various threads that I feel that Spider-Man "jumped the shark" when Pete's "parents" returned (which was dumb to start with) and that led directly into the whole "I am the Spider" thing (so correct, imdaly). It was so obvious this was to cash in on the whole "dark & gritty" Batman "Dark Knight" thing (hit over the head, as you point out, with Arach-Knight, though I do think that was a little tongue-in-cheek). "Dark & gritty" is fine for Batman, but that just ain't Spidey!

Kudos, shinlyle, for also pointing to #350 and the end of the Larsen age. To me, that was the end of an age that started in the early 80's. See, I started collecting ASM with issue#120. I began losing interest when MJ turned down Pete's 1st proposal and left the book as did artist Ross Andru (very underrated Spidey artist!). What brought me back? The return of MJ and the arrival of Hobgoblin and JR JR. That was a start of a great run of Spidey that, for me, lasted till the end of Larsen and that whole "I am the Spider."

 

[kguillou]

It's cool to take the character down dark paths sometimes but they shouldnt overdo it. Some of spidey's greatest moments were also his darkest: i.e. Kraven's last hunt and Peter beating the s*** out of Kingpin during Back in Black. Those were awesome, but too much dark spidey is just depressing, at the very least BND is giving us some fresh air from the last 3 years of Spidey's dark journey.