Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - Part 1

[Pickleweasel]

I detest Mo Cap, seems like a cheap gimmick, but hopefully this will be a good movie

Don't think I have ever read something that makes less sense

 

[terry78]

Harry, who hasn't written a coherent review in God knows how long, dug it a lot.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/67841

 

[MrMaooz]

Honest Trailer-Planet of the Apes (2001)

[YT]4US0Fjr4Rb8&feature[/YT]

 

[JP]

Man, it's not even that the film has an 89% on RT right now... it's that it has a whopping 8.8/10 average rating. Wow.

 

[P Supreme]

I detest Mo Cap, seems like a cheap gimmick, but hopefully this will be a good movie

 

[Jaspertian1105]

I Study Animation and work on the medium. I understand why people use it in live action movies, but it takes away the importance of the artist behind camera. Without them, those actors would look like silly people wearing weird clothes, but Serkis and his crew think that they make all the work. A good animator can make the same or even better work than any of those actors, and yes even than Serkis too, who said that animators were digital make up artists. Im sorry but that's an insult in my profession.

Unfortunately general audience have no idea of the process, I wish people were more informed about the process, but its how it is

 

[Marvolo]

Uh you do realize that animators come out all the time and praise mocap right? And we have years of non mocap animation to compare against mocap animation. Mocap animation looks better every time. *Note that I'm not including traditional Disney style 2D animation or digital animation like Tangled and Frozen in this comparison.*


Don't get ******** about this, but animators tend to over animate movements and reactions because they aren't actors. Sorry but y'all do better when you have mocap actors to work with. Serkis has always praised the work of the entire crew including the animators. So what I'm seeing here is either you have failed in some way and have unfairly laid the blame of your failures on the mocap crew or you are upset by industry progress or you just don't like it that you aren't in the spotlight. Either way it's unbecoming.

Mocap is a marvelous technology and making absurd claims about it being a gimmick and cheap makes it hard to take your plight and posts seriously.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Uh you do realize animators come out all the time and praise mocap right? And we have years of non mocap animation to compare against mocap animation. Mocap animation looks better every time. Don't get ******** about this, but animators tend to over animate movements and reactions because they aren't actors. Sorry but y'all do better when you have mocap actors to work with. Serkis has always praised the work of the entire crew including the animators. So what I'm seeing here is either you have failed in some way and have unfairly laid the blame of your failure on the mocap crew or you are upset by industry progress or you just don't like it that you aren't in the spotlight. Either way it's unbecoming.

No they don't praise it, don't know what we have read but that is BS. You can use is it as a tool but mo cap without post treatment looks extremely weightless. yes the technology is better but that's not the point, its used because you can see the actors psychically on set and direct the performance, in that sense for live action movies i understand why is used. Animators aren't actors, wow you are a real ass mate, you would be surprised on the knowledge the great animators have on performance and acting, and no the overacting of the movements depend on the style of the show, you can go broad like something like madagascar or more subtle like the incredibles or How to train you Dragon, depends on the style of the show. Animators most of the time have to push the mocap performance because its not strong enough. You can get a great performance both ways but tell that mocap actors are better, thats utter BS. That you think im not in the spotlight or something like that please, dont be an idiot, i dont need your praise to do my job , i just want people to be recognized for their work

read this and inform yourself

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/motion-c...iam-cook-speaks-out-on-andy-serkis-99439.html

 

[Quasimod0]

Why the need to put down mo-cap actors to raise up animators? They both have a big part to play and do an amazing job.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Why the need to put down mo-cap actors to raise up animators? They both have a big part to play and do an amazing job.

Thats the point , its a collaborative process between animators and mo cap actors, but for this movie the only recognition im seeing is for the mocap actors. For some shots like jumping though the trees, and a lot of physical actions the shot are entirety keyframed, or if not the mo cap performance is used and reference and its heavily modified afterwards, but still you still try to follow the performance as close as possible in this kind of movies. Even in acting shots things sometimes have to change, apes and humans don't have the same features, as good performer as you can be you don't have the same physiology as an ape and sometimes the director just wants another performance entirely in postproduction. The point is the process is really complex and requires a lot of collaboration in all departments, in live action movies. But when people toss around things like digital make up, animators aren't actors or Serkis telling that his performances are entirely his , well that is just not a correct statement and all the artists should be recognized for their jobs equally . I honestly still think you can get great performances without mo cap, but its easier for the other actors to interact with something.

 

[The Endless]

Of course the animators deserve praise, just as much as the actors.

But people praise Serkis because he is fantastic at what he does. It is very, very difficult for an actor to tell a story, to convey emotions, believably and naturally, just using facial expressions and body language, with limited dialogue.

Serkis deserves award nominations for the work he has done as Gollum and Caesar. Just like the animators and SFX teams get award recognition. See thats the thing, there is Oscar categories for special effects and animation. There isn't one for guys like Serkis. There should be.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

3D is a gimmick, mocap is not even remotely a gimmick.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Of course the animators deserve praise, just as much as the actors.

But people praise Serkis because he is fantastic at what he does. It is very, very difficult for an actor to tell a story, to convey emotions, believably and naturally, just using facial expressions and body language, with limited dialogue.

Serkis deserves award nominations for the work he has done as Gollum and Caesar. Just like the animators and SFX teams get award recognition. See thats the thing, there is Oscar categories for special effects and animation. There isn't one for guys like Serkis. There should be.

He is a fine actor no doubts there, maybe someday this technology will be refined enough to be only his performance, but still technology hasn't reached that point. If you read the article that i posted even his performance as gollum was changed , not because of technical issues but as a director choice, so its not accurate to say that its his performance entirely . Should this kind of acting get special recognition? sure, its a hard skill no doubt, saying gimmick was a strong word, apologies if anyone has done such work before. At the end of the day is the performance what matters, just wished the animation department for this movie was more recognized, but its what it is , you just try to defend your fellow artists

 

[Marvolo]

No they don't praise it, don't know what we have read but that is BS. You can use is it as a tool but mo cap without post treatment looks extremely weightless. yes the technology is better but that's not the point, its used because you can see the actors psychically on set and direct the performance, in that sense for live action movies i understand why is used. Animators aren't actors, wow you are a real ass mate, you would be surprised on the knowledge the great animators have on performance and acting, and no the overacting of the movements depend on the style of the show, you can go broad like something like madagascar or more subtle like the incredibles or How to train you Dragon, depends on the style of the show. Animators most of the time have to push the mocap performance because its not strong enough. You can get a great performance both ways but tell that mocap actors are better, thats utter BS. That you think im not in the spotlight or something like that please, dont be an idiot, i dont need your praise to do my job , i just want people to be recognized for their work

read this and inform yourself

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/motion-c...iam-cook-speaks-out-on-andy-serkis-99439.html

Yeah animators do praise mocap actors. I don't care what anyone's craft is. The mo-cap tech is amazing and anyone saying otherwise is just being stubborn.

And I specifically said that I am not including animation like Disney traditional animation and animation like Tangled and Frozen. Tho you may not have noticed that. I had edited that into my post for clarification. In that type of animation exaggeration is perfectly fine and I don't think mocap cap is necessary for that type of animation. I also don't think mocap is necessary for non human characters. However, when it comes to live action and human characters especially animators dont do as good of a job without mocap. I don't expect you to agree or take this well. And I'm not even mad at you for this. This is your craft and I'm telling you that I prefer and think mocap is better than non mocap animation in live action. I understand that that must come across as an insult. That being said, when it comes to live action mocap looks better than non mocap and a legion of upset animators or cocky mocap actors isn't going to change that fact.

As for the link above, I know how the process of mocap animation worked on the LOTR which mind you was in production over a decade ago. Mocap has changed in that decade.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Yeah animators do praise mocap actors.

And I specifically said that I am not including animation like Disney traditional animation and animation like Tangled and Frozen. Tho you may not have noticed that. I edited that into my post for clarification. In that type of animation exaggeration is perfectly fine and I don't think mocap cap is necessary for that type of animation. However, animators dont do as good of a job in live action without mocap. I don't expect you to agree or take this well. And I'm not even mad at you for this. This is your craft and I'm telling you that I prefer and think mocap is better than non mocap animation in live action. I understand that that must come across as an insult. That being said, when it comes to live action mocap looks better than non mocap and a legion of upset animators or cocky mocap actors isn't going to change that fact.

Ok sorry for the insults first, not having the best day here, so apologies first, its not correct to treat people like that.

I had lectures with people who worked at Weta , who worked in the avengers, mostly the iron man parts, and showed us how the process they use. They told us that the process does sped up the pipleline, you have something to work with not like a totally empty canvas. But many times the animation has to be totally redone because of weight issues or performance issues, , at the end of the day the director will be the one with the final word.

What im seeing in this small making of's , really hasn't blown my mind performance wise yet. Its a costly technology to mount those cameras and sensors, im sure they are holding the best for the movie hopefully. The one scene of the ape shooting those guys was really really well done. Could the same performance be obtained without the actor? i would probably say yes, but in live action for the other actors is better to have something to react, acting is reacting and make them perform against a tennis ball wouldn't be the same so having an actor on set is better. Still when you say mo cap acting is better that non mo cap acting, well i cannot think of many examples besides Jar Jar Binks were no mocap was involved in some way, and that performance was going to be awful even if daniel day lewis played him. Those Zemeckis movies were God Awful, and they used heavy mocap and animators weren't allowed to tweak the performances and there were some great actors involved, and we all know how all of those turned out in the end.

In the end the director have to use the tools at his or her disposal to get the best product. I dont work in live action or particularly like super realistic animation, but i respect the animators who do the job

 

[Quasimod0]

The Polar Express is fantastic. Don't mess with that movie. lol

 

[Jaspertian1105]

The Polar Express is fantastic. Don't mess with that movie. lol

lol Really? My God that film gives me nightmares. Those eyes!

 

[Marvolo]

Ok sorry for the insults first, not having the best day here, so apologies first, its not correct to treat people like that.

I had lectures with people who worked at Weta , who worked in the avengers, mostly the iron man parts, and showed us how the process they use. They told us that the process does sped up the pipleline, you have something to work with not like a totally empty canvas. But many times the animation has to be totally redone because of weight issues or performance issues, , at the end of the day the director will be the one with the final word.

What im seeing in this small making of's , really hasn't blown my mind performance wise yet. Its a costly technology to mount those cameras and sensors, im sure they are holding the best for the movie hopefully. The one scene of the ape shooting those guys was really really well done. Could the same performance be obtained without the actor? i would probably say yes, but in live action for the other actors is better to have something to react, acting is reacting and make them perform against a tennis ball wouldn't be the same so having an actor on set is better. Still when you say mo cap acting is better that non mo cap acting, well i cannot think of many examples besides Jar Jar Binks were no mocap was involved in some way, and that performance was going to be awful even if daniel day lewis played him. Those Zemeckis movies were God Awful, and they used heavy mocap and animators weren't allowed to tweak the performances and there were some great actors involved, and we all know how all of those turned out in the end.

In the end the director have to use the tools at his or her disposal to get the best product. I dont work in live action or particularly like super realistic animation, but i respect the animators who do the job

Polar Express came out a long time ago early in mocap days when a lot of it was awful so I wouldnt personally use that as an example. Avatar and Planet of the Apes are better examples of what modern mocap can do and what the animators can do with it.

And don't worry about insulting me. We all have bad days. And I stepped on your toes by having a go at your craft so no harm no foul. Mocap has its benefits but I know it's not the the end all be all and you animators play a huge role and are indispensable. I love the work animators do and as a huge sci-fi fan y'all put my dreams on screen.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

Polar Express came out a long time ago early in mocap days when a lot of it was awful so I wouldnt personally use that as an example. Avatar and Planet of the Apes are better examples of what modern mocap can do and what the animators can do with it.

And don't worry about insulting me. We all have bad days. And I stepped on your toes by having a go at your craft so no harm no foul. Mocap has its benefits but I know it's not the the end all be all and you animators play a huge role and are indispensable. I love the work animators do and as a huge sci-fi fan y'all put my dreams on screen.

Well spoken, all is good, and yes it feels like a change in the industry, probably as technology progresses mo cap will require less and less adjustments in post, its hard for animators to accept it but its just how the industry is. Still for creatures like the hulk you will never get the proper weight and movements without animators. The 2008 Hulk looks really dated now a days for the most part, but i think it was mostly a design choice, he had very low body fat and strange facial features, when they matched Ruffalos and Hulks features the improvements were noticable

The guys i really feel sorry about are the prosthetic and make up artists, i think that craft is begin lost unfortunately. I wish we could get some cool high tech monkey suits and film all the performances on camera, and tweek some stuff in post. Films like Predators and Aliens are still one of my favorites, to have the queen on film with realistic lighting , i don't think any cg could equal that feeling.

 

[Marvolo]

Animatronics, facial prosthetics, and miniatures are a dying art sadly. I'm just glad we've got director's like Guillermo Del Toro and Ridley Scott and others like them who insist on doing the special effects and sets in camera if possible. I love those massive sets and prosthetics and the animatronics. Always puts a smile on my face.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

I personally, have never once noticed, felt, experience or whatever...this so called "Uncanny Valley". Not once.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

I personally, have never once noticed, felt, experience or whatever...this so called "Uncanny Valley". Not once.

mm there are some parts were it feels a little weightless but just super minor parts, overall its a fantastic achievement. Also they are apes, not people, so we don't know their mannerism as well as we know other fellow humans. They get away with the uncanny valley much easier. The day we cant distinguish between a cg and a real human that will be a very strange day. Some stuff in the halo cinematics can almost fool you, and the next gen games are really pushing the photoreal humans more and more.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

I have seen some more trailers, wow i take it back, it looks freaking gorgeous. There is something really really scary of monkeys and machine guns, somehow it seems like something it could really happen

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

 

[Marvolo]

Honest Trailers - Tim Burton Planet of the Apes

[YT]4US0Fjr4Rb8[/YT]