DC October '09 Solicitations

[Spike_x1]

Yeah, I can't even think of a specific time when a professional critic has actually convinced me personally to a buy a comic, but I do think that there's some merit to be found when you've got the vast majority of critics praising a specific title (eg: early Invincible).

 

[Tron Bonne]

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm eating my own logic for lunch here

 

[BrianWilly]

The real answer to this debate is that everyone should just listen to whatever I say and buy what I buy all the time.

 

[The Eagle Host]

You would have a point in DC bringing back Hal being a mistake if it weren't for the fact that Hal's return is extremely financially and critically successful. This is the worst example that you've brought up with your personal bias against Hal Jordan being in the way of how it actually is.

Everyone's already responded to this for me.

Now he's a person who is torn between the loyalties of two worlds. He now has to fit in within Kryptonian society. Again, it's not like the readers have outright rejected the new direction Superman is in right now, but then again, it's not like it's enjoying the success that Green Lantern and right now the Flash are enjoying.

But he's not torn. Before he left, he had reservations, but when was the last time he looked longingly at Earth? In fact, when was the last time he had a character moment at all? So far, he's filled the "morally right" role, a role which could be filled with pretty much any hero and not miss a beat. It's the exact same situation I mentioned in regards to Green Lantern. The only added bonus is that he's Kryptonian. At no point have I read the story and thought to myself, "yeah, this is a Superman story."

Again, your "critical acclaim" argument has been refuted by many others.

Again, right now the Flash: Rebirth is off to good start financially and it has been getting better since the first issue. The Flash franchise was in such a mess due to DC's screw-ups so in order to revitalize it, they simply are repeating the incredibly successful formula that they used in Green Lantern. DC is a business first and for most DC is a business and because of their mistakes, Wally West was not working for them.

Wally West wasn't working for them? Are you insane? Do you honestly think Barry Allen being back has anything to do with the success of Rebirth at all? I guarantee you it has everything to do with 1) Geoff Johns, 2) the massive marketing DC is throwing behind it, 3) "nothing will be the same!", 4) the success of Green Lantern Rebirth. The most critically acclaimed and successful runs on Flash have been on Wally West books, not Barry Allen. Wally West has been a beloved, relevant Flash for DC comics for nearly 25 years. As Kid Flash, even longer. He gained a level of acceptance Kyle Rayner never did.

The reason Flash of late wasn't working is arguable, but I would say it had to do with DC's initial mishandling of the character at the close of Infinite Crisis as you yourself mentioned. You know what's funny about that? THAT WAS WHEN THEY REPLACED WALLY WEST AS FLASH. Kinda blows your "Wally West was not working" argument. The reason his return wasn't successful is something Mark Waid himself has pointed out: he shifted the focus of the book from Wally-as-Flash to Wally-as-father, and that just didn't jive with readers.

You know why it isn't going to change any time soon? Because readers are buying and liking the **** you mention. Most of the complaints about DC are the stuff that you aren't mentioning like the misdirections of DC's team books like Justice League of America and the Titans, or how they badly mismanaged the Flash franchise after Infinite Crisis, or how they're unable to get things out on time and absolutely killing momentum, or how DiDio does not have a coherent vision for the DC Universe.

The things you are mentioning aren't the problem that most people are having with the DC Universe, they're problems that YOU'RE having with the DC Universe. Big difference. It's not a pity for DC that you're not liking Hal Jordan or Barry Allen.

This is the most baffling part of your argument. You're arguing that my opinions are my opinions? Wow... you got me...

Also, if you want to play the "critical acclaim" game, Marvel beats the s*** out of DC in sales every month. By that logic, you should be buying every Marvel comic on the stands. Have fun with your fifteen Avengers books.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Looking over this these again it just hit me how many Batman titles there really are here. I know we have an excess of Bat-family titles now, but this month we have Batman double dipping, Batman Confidential double dipping, a two issue mini that both parts come out this month and both Batman and Detective having annuals this month. All that on top of the Batbooks. That's like...Wolverine level **** there. I know Batman gets his fair share of ****ing out, but jeez.

Also just noticed that those two annuals are $4.99 for 56 page issues. That's crap

 

[The Eagle Host]

A key difference is that Batman has an entire family of characters that can support their own books. Wolverine is just... Wolverine.

 

[Assassin]

They actually range from good to great, so it's not embarrassing at all.

The only one i'm reading is INK and i'm loving it.

 

[yenaled]

I don't mind the Superman crap at the moment, I don't read WoNK but Mon-El is ****ing awesome. Mon-El is the best thing to happen to the Superman title since at least OYL.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Everyone's already responded to this for me.

But they fail to address that the vast majority of fans are really enjoying Green Lantern, it's enjoying massive critical and financial success as well. There is no reason for DC to drastically change what's going on because of an incredibly fringe minority.

But he's not torn. Before he left, he had reservations, but when was the last time he looked longingly at Earth? In fact, when was the last time he had a character moment at all? So far, he's filled the "morally right" role, a role which could be filled with pretty much any hero and not miss a beat. It's the exact same situation I mentioned in regards to Green Lantern. The only added bonus is that he's Kryptonian. At no point have I read the story and thought to myself, "yeah, this is a Superman story."

Again, your "critical acclaim" argument has been refuted by many others.

Some changes do have to be made for Superman in order to get more people on board, but drastic changes don't really have to be made. Superman isn't enjoying the success that Green Lantern is right now.

Wally West wasn't working for them? Are you insane? Do you honestly think Barry Allen being back has anything to do with the success of Rebirth at all? I guarantee you it has everything to do with 1) Geoff Johns, 2) the massive marketing DC is throwing behind it, 3) "nothing will be the same!", 4) the success of Green Lantern Rebirth. The most critically acclaimed and successful runs on Flash have been on Wally West books, not Barry Allen. Wally West has been a beloved, relevant Flash for DC comics for nearly 25 years. As Kid Flash, even longer. He gained a level of acceptance Kyle Rayner never did.

The reason Flash of late wasn't working is arguable, but I would say it had to do with DC's initial mishandling of the character at the close of Infinite Crisis as you yourself mentioned. You know what's funny about that? THAT WAS WHEN THEY REPLACED WALLY WEST AS FLASH. Kinda blows your "Wally West was not working" argument. The reason his return wasn't successful is something Mark Waid himself has pointed out: he shifted the focus of the book from Wally-as-Flash to Wally-as-father, and that just didn't jive with readers.

DC put Wally West in a position that wasn't workable. You couldn't just reverse him from not being a father because killing his kids would be just awful. DC's mishandling of the character put him in the position that major reworking of the Flash franchise was needed and that is why they're applying the successful Green Lantern formula here.

This is the most baffling part of your argument. You're arguing that my opinions are my opinions? Wow... you got me...

You're acting as if they're problems within the DC Universe that goes beyond your opinions.

Also, if you want to play the "critical acclaim" game, Marvel beats the s*** out of DC in sales every month. By that logic, you should be buying every Marvel comic on the stands. Have fun with your fifteen Avengers books.

If you ask me, Marvel is currently better than DC right now. And that is a big reason why they are beating the **** out of DC in sales every month.

 

[Tron Bonne]

But they fail to address that the vast majority of fans are really enjoying Green Lantern, it's enjoying massive critical and financial success as well. There is no reason for DC to drastically change what's going on because of an incredibly fringe minority.

Excuse moi?

Fans, by and large, are notorious for also being sheep and essentially buying what DC tells them to buy and gives the best promotion, whether it's good or not.

Critical acclaim, sure, I'll give you that one on most occasions. But sales? I would never equate profits with quality.

I don't think Eagle was bringing up sales, just some flaws he sees in the direction of Johns' work (and since he's basically the golden boy of DC right now it applies to a lot of the DCU as a whole), and I think he brought some good points to the table personally.

Most of that was Eagle's opinion. He didn't tag 'in my opinion' or 'imo' at the end of it but it was. You're basically making this part of the argument sales vs opinion. That's what I was basically trying to convey but I guess it didn't come across too well. In which case sales will always win because in the end that's all that relevant to DC.

You're right that he is in the minority with his beliefs, but I don't think he's shown any overly fanboyish behavior in his posts, so I think his opinion is as value as yours or mine or anyone elses here.

Except BrianWilly, who surpasses us because he said so.

 

[The Eagle Host]

But they fail to address that the vast majority of fans are really enjoying Green Lantern, it's enjoying massive critical and financial success as well. There is no reason for DC to drastically change what's going on because of an incredibly fringe minority.

Save that argument for when I say something like, "no one is enjoying Green Lantern. It is also not enjoying massive critical and financial success." Until then, it's irrelevant.

Some changes do have to be made for Superman in order to get more people on board, but drastic changes don't really have to be made. Superman isn't enjoying the success that Green Lantern is right now.

I'm not sure what you're arguing against here. I never said drastic changes were needed, but drastic changes are sure as hell what we got. The number Kryptonians in the DC universe went from a handful to over one hundred thousand. Superman is barely recognizable anymore. You could say, "he's the guy with the 'S' on his chest," but that's literally everyone. As I said before, he's almost a noncharacter at this point. He's a place-holder for the "goody-goody" role in the story.

DC put Wally West in a position that wasn't workable. You couldn't just reverse him from not being a father because killing his kids would be just awful. DC's mishandling of the character put him in the position that major reworking of the Flash franchise was needed and that is why they're applying the successful Green Lantern formula here.

Wally was plenty workable. All they had to do was take the focus off of him as a father and back on him as a hero. Drop the kids back to distance supporting characters. The point is, Wally was still relevant. Barry hasn't been relevant in 25 years, outside of cameos that were entirely focused on developing Wally as a character.

You're acting as if they're problems within the DC Universe that

goes beyond your opinions.[/quote]

Anyone who treats my opinions as anything more is ******ed. I expected more of you.

If you ask me, Marvel is currently better than DC right now. And that is a big reason why they are beating the **** out of DC in sales every month.

That's depressing and I'm sorry I read it.

 

[BrianWilly]

Except BrianWilly, who surpasses us because he said so.

Man, we could have used more you during my last 10,880 posts.

But y'know what, I should say something here: Say what you will about DC's managerial decisions being run by misspelled fortune cookies, but it is a big mistake to underestimate Geoff Johns. The man will kill you and then your family, and everyone you ever loved.

...Wait, let me retcon that.

Do any of you honestly think that Geoff Johns -- at thirty-six years young -- being DC's top writer for something like five years now just magically happened by accident, that he merely stumbled through blind luck onto his fifteen minutes of nerd-fame? That the place he's been taking the DCU towards is simply some disorganized, ramshackle direction with no real merits? People, make no mistake: the man knows exactly what he's doing. Everything he has done ever since stepping aboard in 1999 -- everything, no exceptions, let me reiterate absolutely everything -- has paid off and paid off big for him and for the company. Justice Society. Titans. Flash. Superman. Lanterns. You think he got to where he is by not knowing what the hell he's doing? Please, he's the writer that other writers wish they could be. He knows when to take big risks, and he also knows when to play it safe. His ideas work. They can be completely abstract, or they can be vanilla to the point of utmost unoriginality; I mean, let's be honest here...stealing energy from the hearts of the living? Hi Geoff, every single anime ever made in the 90s called, along with the Mayans; they want you off their porch.

But. It. Works. Every single comics forum in the universe is chattering about it, and not the bad kind of forum chatter. Johns' directions resonate with more readers than nigh every other writer at DC, maybe even Marvel. More than Grant -- who is imo a superior writer in virtually every respect -- more than Kurt Busiek, more than Waid or Giffen or others who have far more on their resume than his measly decade of experience. The idea that he's some sort of stain on DC's record -- as subjective as it appears -- is just ridiculous. Years from now, no one is going to remember Geoff Johns as anything but a massive boon to them, despite any of his debatable stumbles.

 

[The Eagle Host]

No one is arguing that Geoff Johns isn't successful. I guess the one sentence that best summarizes my position is:

Geoff Johns is excellent at executing ideas, but his ideas are pretty much terrible.

He's a brilliant technical writer. He can characterize like a pro, and he can tie together plot points like no one else, but his ideas are simply awful. You can even see the decline in his writing as he gained more sway at DC. It could be argued that Infinite Crisis was the point where he was essentially given free reign at DC, and I would argue that that's pretty much the point at which he started to weaken. As he's put into place his grand ideas, they've started to weaken every major franchise he's touched. Back before DC editorial was scared of him, and he was limited in what he could do, he was much better.

Is he a stain on DC's financial record? God no, he's made them more money than they could have dreamed. Is he a stain on their creative record? I will say yes until the day I die.

 

[Tron Bonne]

EDIT: Nevermind, I can't keep up anyway

 

[BrianWilly]

Well I don't think that disliking Johns' directions is necessarily a minority view, depending on the direction in question. Between Infinite Crisis (which I personally loved), Kyllax (which I must kill with fire), later Teen Titans, Kingdom Come 2.0, and even the recent Flash Rebirth, I'd say the man has racked up enough criticism that no one has any illusions about his potential demerits. All the same, my point was mostly that no one should have any misconceptions about his qualities, as well. I mean it's almost funny that most people lamenting his current Flash direction are people longing for his old Flash direction.

 

[Tron Bonne]

EDIT: Oh yeah, that JSA stuff. Nevermind, I'm lagging behind today

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I mean it's almost funny that most people lamenting his current Flash direction are people longing for his old Flash direction.

I'm longing and always have longed for Waid's, personally.

 

[The Eagle Host]

Well I don't think that disliking Johns' directions is necessarily a minority view, depending on the direction in question. Between Infinite Crisis (which I personally loved), Kyllax (which I must kill with fire), later Teen Titans, Kingdom Come 2.0, and even the recent Flash Rebirth, I'd say the man has racked up enough criticism that no one has any illusions about his potential demerits. All the same, my point was mostly that no one should have any misconceptions about his qualities, as well. I mean it's almost funny that most people lamenting his current Flash direction are people longing for his old Flash direction.

I have no misconceptions. I'm perfectly confident with my previous one-sentence appraisal.

 

[howl]

I'm skipping it. Of the previews so far, in fact, I'm only buying Adventure Comics, Blackest Night, Green Lantern, and Green Lantern Corps. I'm thinking about the REBELS Annual (but I'm not a huge fan of the Starro retcon, so I don't know for sure) and Superman/Batman (I don't know who these Peter Johnson and Matt Cherniss people are, but I like the comic right now and the solicitation sounds good).

Not a fan of Secret Six?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I read Secret Six. I must have missed it.

 

[Assassin]

I don't mind the Superman crap at the moment, I don't read WoNK but Mon-El is ****ing awesome. Mon-El is the best thing to happen to the Superman title since at least OYL.

I think they could have put anyone there and Robinson would have made him the best thing ever

 

[sethcohen]

oh ya? lets see him write a book about bibbo