DeSanto and Murphy off of Transformers 2?

[blind_fury]

I wasn't just talking about those two when i said higher ups
-bays notorious for taking risks that studios in general don't like till after the fact

i consider them higher ups in that their producers, in the heiarchy, they're in fact above him


HIS vision within the relm of the universe
last i checked this film has resonated with countless "hardcores"

ur vision, and forgive me for my assumptions(just making a generalized point), was/is a live action version of that 86 movie

his vision isn't that...it's way different but it's pretty much the same thing(characters, homeworld, scale, basic story)

bumblebee being a prime example of this

donner superman played out nothing like that 1939 action comic, i guess he should have called it something else...maybe meator man or something

theres a difference between exploiting and elevating

Exactly.

Using G1 names to trick people into believing it's the Transformers they're familair with then changing mostly everything except the names, exploits the fandom and the attachment we have to the characters/mythos without capturing the reasons they resonated in the first place.

Richard Donner did the opposite.

And Bay is hardly elevating the source material. The show/comics had alot more to offer than just explosions and flashy effects despite the popular belief suggesting otherwise.

 

[Marvin]

Exactly.

Using G1 names to trick people into believing it's the Transformers they're familair with then changing mostly everything except the names, exploits the fandom and the attachment we have to the characters/mythos without capturing the reasons they resonated in the first place.

yes, cause bumblebee, sam, optimus, megatron, jazz, ironhide, starscream etc allresonale for differerent reasons here...the first 4 in particular being the stars in this

Richard Donner did the opposite.

puzo wrote a very differnt story from the original book...
but sure Superman was essentially the same character at heart
are u about to tell me that Prime is not prime anymore?

And Bay is hardly elevating the source material. The show/comics had alot more to offer than just explosions and flashy effects despite the popular belief suggesting otherwise.

I'll use the term "Bay" lightly, but sure he is...BB and sams relationship has a few more layers than it did in the cartoon(i honestly can't even remember why they were so close in that show)

the minute the added the concept of realism weather it be the designs or character motivation...they elevated it

 

[blind_fury]

Ok....I really don't see how such a major part of the mythos beign altered is small but ok...Also i think that characterization is more important than making it look close to an old book

I think capturing why it resonated with millions enough to inspire life-long fandom is very important. More important then telling an untested story with different characters but keeping the same names and title to make a quick buck. That trivializes the fans and their attachment to the characters and mythos as if it's based on something easily replaceable.

Our fandom is not based on something easily replaceable. I take offense to that.

All source material with sizable fanbases has strengths and weaknesses. An adaptation should de-emphasize the weaknesses and focus on the strengths to share with the uninitiated masses. Explosions is not Transformers only strength. I didn't become a life-long fan because of empty spectacle but most movie goers won't realize this watching the movie.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I think capturing why it resonated with millions enough to inspire life-long fandom is very important. More important then telling an untested story with different characters but keeping the same names and title to make a quick buck. That trivializes the fans and their attachment to the characters and mythos as if it's based on something easily replaceable.

Our fandom is not based on something easily replaceable. I take offense to that.

All source material with sizable fanbases has strengths and weaknesses. An adaptation should de-emphasize the weaknesses and focus on the strengths to share with the uninitiated masses. Explosions is not Transformers only strength. I didn't become a life-long fan because of empty spectacle but most movie goers won't realize this watching the movie.

From most reviews this has resonated with the fans and captures the heart of the show and characters,also weren't we talking about Iron Man ?

 

[blind_fury]

the minute the added the concept of realism weather it be the designs or character motivation...they elevated it

Realism? Whenever you spend tens of millions on detailed CGI the concept is going to look more realistic than a 2-D cartoon.

Bay did not "elevate" the characters motivations in any way whatsoever.

It's a boy trying to get laid while Megatron looks for the "magic flute". The G1 comics/cartoons explore alot more ground than that. This is a fact, jack.

 

[Marvin]

I think capturing why it resonated with millions enough to inspire life-long fandom is very important. More important then telling an untested story with different characters but keeping the same names and title to make a quick buck. That trivializes the fans and their attachment to the characters and mythos as if it's based on something easily replaceable.

Our fandom is not based on something easily replaceable. I take offense to that.

All source material with sizable fanbases has strengths and weaknesses. An adaptation should de-emphasize the weaknesses and focus on the strengths to share with the uninitiated masses. Explosions is not Transformers only strength. I didn't become a life-long fan because of empty spectacle but most movie goers won't realize this watching the movie.

ok heres what i see

ur argument(s) are valid, they've always had a validity...i can honestly recall making them in the past about other such things

the thing is

as right as u may be

ur wrong in directing in this specific case

making a movie about ninjas and mars and a wise ghost that used to be a mouse and then calling it Power Rangers is exploitation thru and through...

Go read a review...any review...remove the word "Transformers" and then ask ur self if it sounded like a transfomers plot or story, ask urself if u could see optimus saying those things...BB doing those things, Mags being motivated by those things...

weather it's the same plot as ur show or not
this is Transformers...

it's like if they made a movie about TF on pluto...and ppl said that's not right!
never asking themselves if there could be anything beyond what they've seen these characters do in the past

 

[Hunter Rider]

It's a boy trying to get laid while Megatron looks for the "magic flute". The G1 comics/cartoons explore alot more ground than that. This is a fact, jack.

No it's about power and war and coming of age and growing into yourself and about the effects other ppl's wars have on those caught in the middle,come on Fury at least be somewhat less biased man and also the toon boxset is the same story every week,i know i just watched it through,it's all about the planets resources and mining energy

 

[blind_fury]

From most reviews this has resonated with the fans and captures the heart of the show and characters,also weren't we talking about Iron Man ?

Were talking about sticking to the source material and minimizing any changes done for the sake of change.

And most reviewers say they were wowed by the special effects and were surprised the jokes weren't as bad as expected. Loud explosions and special effects aren't the main reasons TF resonated with life-long fans.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Were talking about sticking to the source material and minimizing any changes done for the sake of change.

And most reviewers say they were wowed by the special effects and were surprised the jokes weren't as bad as expected. Loud explosions and special effects aren't the main reasons TF resonated with life-long fans.

But you skate over the changes in Iron Man's mythos b/c despite being big he got the suits right and in most of the reviews they talk of how it has a heart and you care for the Bots and that it made them feel like a kid again,this was from long time fans.

 

[blind_fury]

ok heres what i see

ur argument(s) are valid, they've always had a validity...i can honestly recall making them in the past about other such things

the thing is

as right as u may be

ur wrong in directing in this specific case

making a movie about ninjas and mars and a wise ghost that used to be a mouse and then calling it Power Rangers is exploitation thru and through...

Go read a review...any review...remove the word "Transformers" and then ask ur self if it sounded like a transfomers plot or story, ask urself if u could see optimus saying those things...BB doing those things, Mags being motivated by those things...

weather it's the same plot as ur show or not
this is Transformers...

it's like if they made a movie about TF on pluto...and ppl said that's not right!
never asking themselves if there could be anything beyond what they've seen these do in the past

I'm simply saying a good adaptation takes all the strengths of the source material instead of cheating the fans and audience by only revealing some strengths and ignoring many others. That is wasted potential which benefits no one.

 

[blind_fury]

But you skate over the changes in Iron Man's mythos b/c despite being big he got the suits right and in most of the reviews they talk of how it has a heart and you care for the Bots and that it made them feel like a kid again,this was from long time fans.

How many times do I have to say it?

Jon is minimizing the changes for the fans sake. Bay pretended the fans didn't exist or matter making wholesale changes/omissions to 75% of the mythos.

I always expected a Transformers movie to make geeks feel like a kids again. Kudos to Bay for achieving that. However the G1 mythos has more to offer than flashy effects and recycled ET scenarios.

 

[Hunter Rider]

How many times do I have to say it?

Jon is minimizing the changes for the fans sake. Bay pretended the fans didn't exist or matter making wholesale changes/omissions to 75% of the mythos.

I always expected a Transformers movie to make geeks feel like a kids again. Kudos to Bay for achieving that. However the G1 mythos has more to offer than flashy effects and recycled ET scenarios.

How may times do i have to say it,that isn't minimal at all,it's a complete change of a major part of Tony's alcoholism story

And this is movie one,the mythos can be expanded and developed over future movies,the G1 mythos was build over many years of toons and books not one 2 hour and a bit that has to introduce everyone as well as tell a story

 

[Marvin]

Realism? Whenever you spend tens of millions on detailed CGI the concept is going to look more realistic than a 2-D cartoon.

actually.... as i've posted elsewhere

he did

I still can't belive all the bit<hing to be had over the (real world) designs

some ppl actually wanted this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBY1nxEP3ds

i suppose yea it's a direct translation from this

but like someone said before how do u get in...i mean the robots arm must go somewhere?
I'll admit there are ways it could possibly look cool...but it would never...ever be practical

those damn feet get me everytime

bumblebee with the mask amour

no amount of bay lighting would make that cartoon work...

 

[Marvin]

Objectively fans said they just wanted resemblance...

this guy

this face

they gave us this (mind the puzzle mode)

with actually working joints (note the ball and socket in the shoulder, or the hinge elbows...the functional wrists)
he's even got biceps and bicepfemoris going on...

all they wanted was resemblance...
ten years ago...before this movie was thought up
if u showed that to anyone familiar with transformers they'd know what and who that is...
(look ma, i have working ankles )

it's the classic chris nolan(tho i'm not a fan) versus batman dead end design scenario

Bay did not "elevate" the characters motivations in any way whatsoever.

It's a boy trying to get laid while Megatron looks for the "magic flute". The G1 comics/cartoons explore alot more ground than that. This is a fact, jack.

hmm ok so Sam want to bang Meagan (i don't blame him)
I suppose u believe that's all he want right
nothing about helping his friends, nothing about saving the world?

tell me what his "motivation was in the show" and tell me how it's not here...

cause what i see is that it's all here...plus more...what more?
this time around it's all that plus the motivations of an adolescent male(at first)
ELEVATION

Megatron was motivated by what last time...what was his goal(s)
cause this time, i bet if u get him to sit down and write an essay about the 5 things he hopes to accomplish by new years they'd be similar if not dead in line with turn into a gun raspy voice mags...

cept this time his contempt for humanity seems more evident

if u think they explore more ground, than that's no doubt because they're more of them...

This next part is important

I honestly think Beast wars took the series to new heights and i love it for that...
but this is a movie...one of many(god willing)

beast wars was like 3 seasons...
3 great 26 episodal stories of deciet, metaphor, plot twists, allegory, subtext, character, and character development

if u ask ask me how much of that was in the first 2 part movie/episodes

i'd say almost none, but what looked to be the very start of all of that great stuff

ur gonna sit there and compare, countless stories to this one intro movie with it's 2hr runtime and it's wonderfull budgeted action and entertaining movie pace ..

and then say they're EXPLOTING?

The bible has a billion things in it, sub text metaphor and what not
the passion of the christ has it's fair share...but no where near the bible and it's many many passages!

 

[Marvin]

I'm simply saying a good adaptation takes all the strengths of the source material instead of cheating the fans and audience by only revealing some strengths and ignoring many others. That is wasted potential which benefits no one.

u can't get everything(not all at once)

don't u dare ask me(batmans loyal fan) what was left out of Begins
don't u do it..i'll take over this thread with it my rants

but it's still a "great batman movie"
(i suppose )


how as blade NOT an exploitation by ur standards?

 

[blind_fury]

How may times do i have to say it,that isn't minimal at all,it's a complete change of a major part of Tony's alcoholism story

We don't know if Obadiah is the catalyst for the alcoholism which would be the perfect way to introduce it. If Tony is an alcoholic in the fist 20 minutes of the franchise it loses it's gravity and impact. I'm sure Jon could justify many of these changes with reasoned answers whereas most of Bay's changes seem arbitrary or self-absorbed.

And this is movie one,the mythos can be expanded and developed over future movies,the G1 mythos was build over many years of toons and books not one 2 hour and a bit that has to introduce everyone as well as tell a story

I agree to an extent. However Bay wasted time with some characters and wasted opportunities with others.

 

[Hunter Rider]

We don't know if Obadiah is the catalyst for the alcoholism which would be the perfect way to introduce it. If Tony is an alcoholic in the fist 20 minutes of the franchise it loses it's gravity and impact. I'm sure Jon could justify many of these changes with reasoned answers whereas most of Bay's changes seem arbitrary or self-absorbed.

Ok now correct me if i am wrong

Spoiler

Iron Monger and Stain being a villain isn't revealed to Tony until after he has become an alcoholic right ? Thus both Stane and Iron Monger are well ahead of the arc that they should be in to create Tony's alcoholism which means they will have to find a new revised way to make him an alcoholic..now i don't mind this i am just saying it is a big departure from the source story wise

I agree to an extent. However Bay wasted time with some characters and wasted opportunities with others.

Having read the script i disagree except i felt Starscream needed more time and dialogue

 

[blind_fury]

it's the classic chris nolan(tho i'm not a fan) versus batman dead end design scenario

Yeah.

In the way you compare CGI that cost tens of millions to something that cost 100 bucks in order to dismiss a design/concept.

ur gonna sit there and compare, countless stories to this one intro movie with it's 2hr runtime and it's wonderfull budgeted action and entertaining movie pace ..

and then say they're EXPLOTING?

The bible has a billion things in it, sub text metaphor and what not
the passion of the christ has it's fair share...but no where near the bible and it's many many passages!

There's a difference form what Nolan did with Batman and what Schumacher did.

One took many strengths of the source material and brought it to the big screen. The other was obsessed with happy meals/product placement first and the fans/source material second.

 

[Orko Is King]

Say what you will about Bay as a filmmaker, but I give the man props for being so candid and ballsy in an industry plagued by bull****ters and asskissers.

 

[blind_fury]

Ok now correct me if i am wrong

Spoiler

Iron Monger and Stain being a villain isn't revealed to Tony until after he has become an alcoholic right ? Thus both Stane and Iron Monger are well ahead of the arc that they should be in to create Tony's alcoholism which means they will have to find a new revised way to make him an alcoholic..now i don't mind this i am just saying it is a big departure from the source story wise

It depends how you define "departure from the source material". How does it take away from the mythos?

If Bay convinces me he elevated the source material, I won't be as bothered with many of these changes which seem arbitrary and spiteful. His attitude towards the G1 fans in general doesn't help his case.

i felt Starscream needed more time and dialogue

At least we found agreement on something.

 

[blind_fury]

Say what you will about Bay as a filmmaker, but I give the man props for being so candid and ballsy in an industry plagued by bull****ters and asskissers.

People rarely brown nose others who have less power than them.

Bay is in a stronger position than Desanto or Don Murphy at this point. He's the bully, not the victim.

 

[Hunter Rider]

It depends how you define "departure from the source material". How does it take away from the mythos?

I am not sure until i see what they replace it with but doesn't Stane drive Tony to drink and then turn on him and steal the armour design blueprints to make his Iron Monger suit n the books ? all that is out the window unless they rush to his alcholism in the first movie which would be a waste since it should be merely foreshadowed in film one IMO

If Bay convinces me he elevated the source material, I won't be as bothered with many of these changes which seem arbitrary and spiteful. His attitude towards the G1 fans in general doesn't help his case.

Well his attitude to me was born out of the hateful things said about him before he had shown one concept but that neither here nor there,Bay is Bay and will always be outspoken i guess

At least we found agreement on something.

It was bound to happen eventuallyt:

 

[Hunter Rider]

People rarely brown nose others who have less power than them.

Bay is in a stronger position than Desanto or Don Murphy at this point. He's the bully, not the victim.

Murphy maybe but DeSanto has his hands in a lot of things plus why should Bay let them walk around spouting lies ? it's not bullying it's setting the record straight

 

[Marvin]

Yeah.

In the way you compare CGI that cost tens of millions to something that cost 100 bucks in order to dismiss a design/concept.

actually those suits costs upwards of 20 thousand(i believe)

i honestly can't believe u think he changed them simply cause he likes the looks of these more...
beyond the fact that he's stated and restated that it was for functionality
optimus looks like optimus

flames...that was preference (not only does it seem to be bothering none of the reviewers...but i notice no ones complaining about bumblebees racing stripe...why? cause it's still him
a superficial change to a robot that has a billion toys that all look different AND, a robot that can change his look at a whim!
unlike say giving superman green eyes...

is nothing

the new BB suit for example
symbiote spidey having webbing on his suit...



There's a difference form what Nolan did with Batman and what Schumacher did.

One took many strengths of the source material and brought it to the big screen. The other was obsessed with happy meals/product placement first and the fans/source material second.

beyond the fact that the ppl that created Tf were justifiably "bsessed with happy meals/product placement first"

beyond that..

Schumacher is seen as bastardizing a serious character/story driven book

Bay is starting off with a bastardized concept...but
that's someone else's argument

my argument, i see no difference with what bays done and what nolan/raimi/even singer has done

right down to the i don't want my xmen wearing yellow spandex idea..

it's real, and in real life boys want to have sex..military gets involved(and sometime succeeds, and robots have ever fantastical...look functional

u keep saying he dissmissess and exlpoits
i need some examples cause i'm not as into this as i may seem
???

 

[blind_fury]

I am not sure until i see what they replace it with but doesn't Stane drive Tony to drink and then turn on him and steal the armour design blueprints to make his Iron Monger suit n the books ? all that is out the window unless they rush to his alcholism in the first movie which would be a waste since it should be merely foreshadowed in film one IMO

well unless we know for sure I think it's unfair to conclude Jon is making major changes to the source material.

Vietnam to Afghanistan is the only "major" change and that one is necessary if your going to set in the present day.

Well his attitude to me was born out of the hateful things said about him before he had shown one concept but that neither here nor there,Bay is Bay and will always be outspoken i guess

what came first? the chicken or the egg?

Fans mostly gave Bay a fair chance until we saw the designs for Starscream/Megatron/Frenzy and plot details with a dog urinating on Transformers and such. Needless to say, not all were pleased.