Did Peter (technically) kill Brock?

eddie reaches the symbiote just after the bomb but in order to do so, one must believe he leapes just before spidey released the bomb since he would be moving at a slower momentum to just reach the symbiote in time. The actual scenes don't tie up so there is an anomaly there already.

But the anomaly is Eddie reaching the symbiote at the same time as the bomb. Peter clearly does not toss the bomb while Eddie is moving. I have some naughty pictures to PM you that can prove this.



've just properly looked up manslaughter on wikipedia and although it may not be the best reference place, i found this


Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States or culpable homicide in Scotland, occurs where there is no intention to kill or cause serious injury but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence.

[edit] Criminal negligence

Negligence consists of conduct by an individual which is not reasonable -- that is, the individual did not act with the care and caution of a reasonable person in similar circumstances. This "reasonable person" is fictitious, of course, but reflects the standard of conduct which society wishes to impose. Violation of this standard may lead to civil liability for the consequences of the negligent behavior.
Negligence rises to the level of criminal negligence where the conduct reaches a higher degree of carelessness or inattention, perhaps to the point of indifference.

[edit] Recklessness

Recklessness or willful blindness is defined as a wanton disregard for the known dangers of a particular situation. An example of this would be a defendant throwing a brick off a bridge into vehicular traffic below. There exists no intent to kill, consequently a resulting death may not be considered murder. However, the conduct is probably reckless, sometimes used interchangeably with criminally negligent, which may subject the principal to prosecution for involuntary manslaughter: the individual was aware of the risk of injury to others and willfuly disregarded it.
In many jurisdictions, such as in California, if the unintentional conduct amounts to such gross negligence as to amount to a willful or depraved indifference to human life, the mens rea may be considered to constitute malice. In such a case, the charged offense may be murder, often characterized as second degree murder.
In some jurisdictions, such as Victoria, British Columbia, recklessness is sufficient mens rea to justify a conviction for murder.


now based on that, it all kinda depends on whether or not one believed parker took reasonable precautions that a 'reasonable person' would in the same situation. I think you're given the impression that under the stress, you deem him pulling eddie out of the 'blast zone' was reasonable enough.

But let's look at it this way

Those bombs do not belong to peter, he was unaware of the time of bomb that would be used (in all fairness it could have been a sliver device that popped out), he's not aware of the fusage time or the magnitude of this so called blast range. IN all fairness, the device he used may had taken out the whole floor level, its range was certainly bigger than the perimeter parker originally sent up (as seen by fires outside of the blast zone and the bars being bent back by the force of the explosion).

Now considering this and he acted with the use of devices he is not familiar with with an unknown blast radius, throwing such a device in order to detonate and cause harm to another lifeform without this knowledge COULD be seen as wreckless. What is also potentially wreckless is leaving a unprotected civilian in potentially the blast range of device that nobody is aware of the potential damage it might cause. Especially one who has shown a record of attachment to the symbiote and has also shown himself to be a danger to others (or desired a serious wish for harm to be inflicted to others).

Now if these were parker's bombs, i think you may have me trumped here but operating devices one is unfamiliar with, especially explosive ones may easily be deemed as wreckless behaviour, especially with unsecured civilians around and because of this i think spidey is potentially accountable for involuntary manslaughter.

That's incorrect though. Peter had prior experience with those bombs and did know their blast range.

Now merely taking the situation into account of Eddie's death, Peter's actions were clearly warranted and reasonable. He took measures to save Eddie. He took measures to eliminate an immediate threat. As Peter hismelf was unharmed, it's clear that anyone in the range he was in was safe. Thus, Eddie was safe. And Peter's actions clearly showed no gross negligence. Since he had placed Eddie in a safe area, his actions weren't negligent at all. If anything Eddie could be charged with gross negligence- even though his actions clearly represented malice and malice aforethought as well so he'd have been charged with first degree murder and attemtped murder.

But more over- you would have to take the entirety of the situation into account, not merely the moments surrounding the explosion. Eddie via his actions had created a dangerous atmosphere (And this was captured on videotape mind you). Peter was merely protecting both himself and the public at large from the threat that Eddie caused. So even if one might argue that Peter shouldn't have thrown the bomb under normal circumstances, Eddie created a situation where the circumstances were far from normal. Thus, given the extreme nature of the situaion, Peter's actions were reasonable. Eddie's death was caused by the sequence of events that he himself put in motion. It's like a drunk driver who dies in a car accident he caused.
 
And the big overall thing people keep forgetting is that there's no body. With no boidy, no evidence of a crime, so Peter wouldn't be charged with anything anyway.
 
the only way to perhaps explain it is to percieve eddie being closer to the symbiote than actually shown in previousl clips which would mean for a single leap attempt that he was withing the blast zone.

To be fair dragon this point here is clearly a real fault of the film makers not doign their job properly and depending on which side of the bomb throw you sit on, you could defend it, or at least i believe, so this isn't going to be one we agree on and there isn't enough to make anything really stick.


about the experience with the bombs, spidey had yet to actually throw a pumpkin bomb before, he's only experienced harry and norman throwing ones at him but because the equipment was not his own, there was no true way to know the extent of the damage, he only acted based on some prior knowledge of what he assumed may happen (and in this case, he assumed fairly well) but that pumpkin could have easily been knives or even a bigger bomb, there was no way to know what he picked, he merely got lucky. When dealing with potentially life threatening explosives, i believe that is somewhat wreckless behaviour.

there is no doubt he took measures to get eddie out from the symbiote and save him, i'm just wondering whether he took proper precautions to keep him from harm as well as attempts to try and save or avert his demise once the bomb was thrown.

This remember is teh same spiderman who dodged a pumpkin bomb thrown to him from behind (which could have been a spidey sense reflex) but then conciously grabbed the bomb and flinged it back before it had travelled any large distance infront of him. Easily the same kinda action could have been taken to avert the thrown bomb (since spidey and harry are near similar strength brackets) towards the goblin.

The thing with 'eddie creating the scenaro' reasoning is that it was eddie+symbiote that did that. Once you remove eddie from the situation, he potentially can be seen as just an innocent just like MJ and then this removes any sort of responsibilities for his actions away from him since he could be seen as being temporarily insane under the influence of the symbiote.

peter's actions would be reasonable for a normal human perhaps but does the fact that he reacts many magnitudes faster than human now mean that we have to judge him based on a potentially normal reaction of a man with the proportionate speed, strength and agility of a spider?

because i think you are doing the former (judging him against men) and i am doing the latter (judging him against superheroes of similar abilities).
 
no he did'nt kill him, he tryed to pull him out, brock was stupid enough to still want the power, he chose that spidey had nothing to do with his death
 
No I don't think Peter killed Eddie. It's called extenuating circumstances and in movie/comics/greek morality plays he is innocent. I could see it (wrongfully) being argued as mansluaghter in court. Doesn't mean I would agree with it, though.
 
No. Eddie did not sacrifice himself. He probably didn't even expect to die. He was trying to preserve his source of power and means to do damage.

Ok, assuming a logical explanation exists, how do you suppose Brock was going to actually preserve the symbiote?

The symbiote should have just batted the thing back at Peter anyhow, stupid alien.......
 
Ok, assuming a logical explanation exists, how do you suppose Brock was going to actually preserve the symbiote?

Well Brock's actions were clearly irrational. What I mean by preserve it was maybe he figured he could re-bond with it and dodge the explosion or some such thing.
 
the only way to perhaps explain it is to percieve eddie being closer to the symbiote than actually shown in previousl clips which would mean for a single leap attempt that he was withing the blast zone.

To be fair dragon this point here is clearly a real fault of the film makers not doign their job properly and depending on which side of the bomb throw you sit on, you could defend it, or at least i believe, so this isn't going to be one we agree on and there isn't enough to make anything really stick.

The scene was edited so regardless, Eddie would be with the symbiote when the blast went off. Thus Eddie wasn't going to see another film.

But regardless, it was also edited to show that Peter had no way of knowing Eddie would be there, and thus did not do anything to cause Eddie's death.


about the experience with the bombs, spidey had yet to actually throw a pumpkin bomb before, he's only experienced harry and norman throwing ones at him but because the equipment was not his own, there was no true way to know the extent of the damage, he only acted based on some prior knowledge of what he assumed may happen (and in this case, he assumed fairly well) but that pumpkin could have easily been knives or even a bigger bomb, there was no way to know what he picked, he merely got lucky. When dealing with potentially life threatening explosives, i believe that is somewhat wreckless behaviour.

You said it yourself- Peter, based on his FIRSTHAND experience of what the bombs could do made a guess of the potency of this particular bomb, and was right. And given the urgency of the situation, his actions couldn't be construed as wreckless or unreasonable.

there is no doubt he took measures to get eddie out from the symbiote and save him, i'm just wondering whether he took proper precautions to keep him from harm as well as attempts to try and save or avert his demise once the bomb was thrown.

He did take proper precautions, by placing Eddie in a safe zone. Peter could not reasonably have been expected to diagnose Eddie's level of psychosis in those seconds. And considering Eddie's established character of doing anything he could to come out on top, one would reasonably expect him to do what he needed to survive, not kill himself.

This remember is teh same spiderman who dodged a pumpkin bomb thrown to him from behind (which could have been a spidey sense reflex) but then conciously grabbed the bomb and flinged it back before it had travelled any large distance infront of him. Easily the same kinda action could have been taken to avert the thrown bomb (since spidey and harry are near similar strength brackets) towards the goblin.

Again, re-watch the scene. The bomb has already made contact with the symbiote BEFORE Eddie does. And if you look, Peter doesn't even see Eddie until after the bomb has made contact iwth the symbiote.

The thing with 'eddie creating the scenaro' reasoning is that it was eddie+symbiote that did that. Once you remove eddie from the situation, he potentially can be seen as just an innocent just like MJ and then this removes any sort of responsibilities for his actions away from him since he could be seen as being temporarily insane under the influence of the symbiote.

Not at all. Peter made all of his decisions while under the influence of the symbiote. Nobody is forgiving Peter or saying he was temporarily insane. And he also mde the conscious decision to rid himself of the symbiote. The symbiote is tantamount to being drunk. It removes your inhibitions- but all of the actions one takes while drunk are still your own. Eddie was in no way innocent.

peter's actions would be reasonable for a normal human perhaps but does the fact that he reacts many magnitudes faster than human now mean that we have to judge him based on a potentially normal reaction of a man with the proportionate speed, strength and agility of a spider?

because i think you are doing the former (judging him against men) and i am doing the latter (judging him against superheroes of similar abilities).

Peter's faster reaction time doesn't mean his mind is working faster. If anything his mind is shutting down and it's all instinct. When we catch a ball tossed at us, there's no conscious thought of opening and positioning our hand. It just happens. The same with Peter, only many times faster. In Spidey 1 when he catches MJ's lunch, you see that HE HIMSELF is as surprised as she is. Because he wasn't aware of himself doing it. Since that time, he may be more certain of his abiltiy to react, but it's still just an unplanned reflex. None of what happened in those last seconds of Eddie's life was planned. It wasn't conscious planning, only instinctive reaction. And when functioning on that level Peter simply could not be planning ahead what Eddie would do.
 
Spider-Man did NOT kill Eddie Brock. Eddie Brock killed himself.
 
I can't believe this debate has gone on so many pages, I thought it was pretty clear Eddie had become drunk with power and killed himself trying to get that power back.
 
I can't believe this debate has gone on so many pages, I thought it was pretty clear Eddie had become drunk with power and killed himself trying to get that power back.

Yeah, but Peter is still technically responsible for how Eddie "killed himself trying to get that power back".

<Cue Rage Against The Machine song>
 
Well Brock's actions were clearly irrational. What I mean by preserve it was maybe he figured he could re-bond with it and dodge the explosion or some such thing.

Yeah, I know, one cannot really rationalise why he jumped back in.

The reason why I ask the question in the first place is that there is too much room for negotiation over Peter's role in the death.

The novelisation had a very different death, but still with the same theme of vengeance being destructive and corrosive.

I'm just not sure why the producers went with this one.

(Unless, for franchise reasons, this death was the most ambiguous one they had).
 
Sooo basically... Eddie was adicted to the power venom held and jumped to (lets say) ..save venom

SO overall yes peter did throw the bomb, but did not intend in killing Eddie. He just wanted to kill venom itself.

I think ive got it right...well thats my opinion anyways...

Vic:D
 
I can't believe this debate has gone on so many pages, I thought it was pretty clear Eddie had become drunk with power and killed himself trying to get that power back.

I know,Eddie Brock is dead..Venom will not return.Some people cant or wont accept this..why?Since there will be other villains for the future films..there is not going to be any time wasted with Venom again,as it is..Raimi was forced to put Venom into the film in the first place.
 
Brock committed suicide basically. Peter didn't kill him. The pumpkin bomb he threw did. Which Brock SAW him throw. He still INTENTIONALLY lunged himself at the symbiote knowing what was about the occur. Peter is innocent.

That is all.
 
You guys didn't happen to see the "(technically)" in the thread title, or the long, in-depth effort to explore the issue by Dragon and November Rain, did you.
 
Yeah, I know, one cannot really rationalise why he jumped back in.

The reason why I ask the question in the first place is that there is too much room for negotiation over Peter's role in the death.

The novelisation had a very different death, but still with the same theme of vengeance being destructive and corrosive.

I'm just not sure why the producers went with this one.

(Unless, for franchise reasons, this death was the most ambiguous one they had).

Plain and simple- in these action films, villains who kill, die. The studios, via testing or what have you, believe audiences don't feel satisfied if a villain that kills people doesn't suffer a similar fate.

Eddie killed Harry. So Eddie had to die. Peter, who we know would never purposely kill someone, was trying to eliminate the symbiote, and nothing more. The sequence is shot and edited to make it clear that Peter had no idea Eddie intended to place himself in the killzone of the blast- But also made Eddie look impossibly fast so that he COULD be there at the time of the explosion.
 
I hope the thread title isn't too provovative.

Something about Eddie's apparent death at the end bothers me (apart from Peter seemingly using his power of the Force, Force-Pull, to extract the pumpkin bomb).

Whereas in the first film, the Burglar (the allegedly un-nameable Dennis Carradine) fell while trying to kill Peter, in SM3 Brock was making no such move at the time.

The best analogy I can come up with is this:
Imagine a wild dog (or an escaped lion from the zoo) running rampage on the streets maiming folk. An armed citizen finally comes to the rescue. However just as he is about to shoot, the animal's owner jumps in an attempt to save the animal (rightly or wrongly), and both animal and owner are killed.

Wouldn't the shooter now be guilty of manslaughter (or whatever the equivalent would be)?

And also:

As far as we know Brock didn't kill anybody in the film.

And couldn't Peter have web-zipped Brock out as he was jumping into the symbiote?

Any thoughts?


Ofcourse he didn't kill anybody in the movie! He didn't get any real screen time to do so!
The one flaw the movie had was the Venom storyline... I would have made that the main badguy storyline with a quick tie in with Sandman, and Uncle Ben being enough to not waste a whole lot of screen time on him.
To much emo crap with him, and his daughter, and blah blah blah.... Either make him the ONLY badguy, and beef up his storyline OR make him a secondary character, and make Venom the main badguy!
Other then that the movie was good... :woot:
 
1) If I see one more post about Edward Brock Sr. getting the symbiote I'm going bonkers. It was a large enough of a coincidence that Eddie got the symbiote in this film. No need to extend that way beyond proportion.

2) My thoughts are that Peter didn't intentionally kill him. Technically? Well, the pumpkin bomb didn't throw itself, so yeah. But he was aiming to kill an alien creature that compelled him to nearly kill the Sandman and that had given Brock the ability to kill Harry Osborn. It had to be stopped. In that sense, Brock was unintended collateral.

As for why Brock did it? The script's original ending had the suit consuming him when Peter stabbed him through the torso with the rebar (a kill which was a lot more intentional than the movie's final cut). The entire point to the ending was that Brock was so consumed in his lust for power and being a somebody that he would willingly maim and kill in partnership with the symbiote to do so. In the end, he chose his own parting from this existence. That's the message- that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The ending wasn't for me, but in the long run I think Peter isn't a murderer in this particular ending. There's nothing he could have done. He tried to save Brock when he tore him from the symbiote. Brock would have been fine had he not chosen to foolheartedly leap towards the symbiote in a vain attempt to bond before it exploded. He did so anyways. Neither Peter nor Harry, the bomb and not even the symbiote was responsible for Brock's own vices.
 
You guys didn't happen to see the "(technically)" in the thread title, or the long, in-depth effort to explore the issue by Dragon and November Rain, did you.
yeah I did. And Brock "TECHNICALLY" committed suicide.

"PETER WHAT ARE YOU DOING!??!!?"

Indicates he knew the bomb was within the symbiote and going to explode.

His fervor for power and near bond with the symbiote sent him clamoring into a death trap. Brock was naive and envious. But not stupid. He saw the bomb, and he knew what was going to happen. He still leapt for it.

It's not Peter's fault at all.
 
Peter did had some hand in Brock's death, though Eddie brought it down on himself. But what I'm arguing here is that Peter threw a bomb at the symbiote without realizing it's potential, he didn't knew how much of a damage it would do upon exploding. The explosion was big enough, and in my mind it was pretty wreckless of Peter to throw a bomb with Eddie just beside him, sure Peter could have taken the wave of the blast but what about Eddie? Of course Peter is not guilty of Brock's death but its not like his hands are totally clean. Anyways, I can't see Spidey using such a lethal weapon on anyone.
 
It's fairly clear cut to me. Eddie was so addicted to the symbiote that he would jeapordize his own safety for the opportunity to maintain his newfound powers. The only thing Peter did was present Eddie with a choice. But Brock's mind was too far gone.
 

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