Discussion: All Things Union

[Kelly]

If I were a parent, I would be pissed....because so many of the teachers took days off to protest, the kids are having to stay in school longer each day to make up the time. That sucks....lol

 

[dnno1]

Not really. It's about performance. If I am making more money as a sales associate than someone who has been there for 20 years, they don't fire me. That is how things are supposed to work. People who have been there for 20 years should be scared of new people coming in because that increases quality and efficiency. It makes everyone perform better. With unions, it's the exact opposite.

No, the way it works nowadays is if they can find someone in India or overseas that can do what you are doing for less, they fire you and get the guy overseas to do your job. They would go as far as hiring 2 people to do your job if need be and it still would be cheaper. Things don't always work based on performance.

 

[chaseter]

No, the way it works nowadays is if they can find someone in India or overseas that can do what you are doing for less, they fire you and get the guy overseas to do your job. They would go as far as hiring 2 people to do your job if need be and it still would be cheaper. Things don't always work based on performance.

They raised taxes on those evil corporations so they left. Unions drove up wages and costs to ridiculous amounts so they left. I would manufacture my vehicles overseas instead of paying a union member $45 an hour to stand in one place screwing in door panels all day.

Your analogy also is incorrect. If a person can perform as well as I can and for cheaper, then that person gets the job. If they perform the exact same, then why keep paying someone more for equal performance? Unions aren't about performance. Just imagine if the entire country was unionized. HAHA that would be great.

 

[imdaly]

Amazing response.

 

[Kelly]

Amazing response.

Two thumbs up....I like him.

 

[chaseter]

Christie is a very, very smart man.

 

[StorminNorman]

No, the way it works nowadays is if they can find someone in India or overseas that can do what you are doing for less, they fire you and get the guy overseas to do your job. They would go as far as hiring 2 people to do your job if need be and it still would be cheaper. Things don't always work based on performance.

Which is good for the consumers of your product.

 

[dnno1]

Which is good for the consumers of your product.

Not really since you can't buy that product if you don't have a job. The economy has that many less consumers and the businesses take that much less revenue. Just to let you know, back in 1914, Henry Ford paid his employees an unheard of $5 an hour. When asked why he did that, he said that he wanted his employees to buy his cars. Even Ford knew back then that the only way you can make money is if the people buying your stuff have money. Taking the consumers job away and shipping it to a place where the people get paid a wage where the could never afford it either does not help at all. Look at the situation we are coming out of now.

 

[dnno1]

They raised taxes on those evil corporations so they left. Unions drove up wages and costs to ridiculous amounts so they left. I would manufacture my vehicles overseas instead of paying a union member $45 an hour to stand in one place screwing in door panels all day.

Your analogy also is incorrect. If a person can perform as well as I can and for cheaper, then that person gets the job. If they perform the exact same, then why keep paying someone more for equal performance? Unions aren't about performance. Just imagine if the entire country was unionized. HAHA that would be great.

Most of those companies were getting tax breaks or tax shelters anyway. They only left because they saw the lower wage and the opportunity to take advantage of economies of scale. Before Ronald Regan, they were being taxed even more and you never had as great an exodus of companies as you did since he left the white house. That's because the current laws were clanged to allow them to defer paying taxes on their overseas income indefinitely while deducting many of the expenses associated with moving offshore (in essence, a double subsidy).

My analogy is not wrong. Even if you can outperform 10 people who make $1 per hour and no other benefits, it would still be cheaper to hire them than to pay you $25 per hour (with or without benefits) to do your job. That is what is happening now at my company so I know I am correct and you are wrong.

 

[Kelly]

Well of course you didn't have the exodus back in the 80's....we didn't have the global infrastructure for business like we do today. You can't even compare the two decades in that way, they are totally different situations.

 

[Denny67]

Amazing response.

It is refreshing to see someone who actually deals in facts and numbers, not just on rhetoric. If what he is saying is true, they were not asked to sacrifice whole lot.

As a non-union public employee in NV, we have sacrificed a heck of a lot more than that. We’ve had our wages and hiring frozen for 4 years now and have taken an additional 10% cut on top of that.

Still I have hard time vilifying unions on a whole. I think just like any other organization; some are run well and live in the real world and others just don’t have a clue.

Regardless of which, each state has to independently work through their own issues to find solutions; but under no circumstances should the current economic challenges be used as an excuse to strip rights, be used as a wedge to gain a political foothold or throw laws out of the window.

Unfortunately that is what is happening in a number of states right now and it needs to stop. Sacrificing our core principals and foundation of a nation that is governed by law is one area where the ends do not now nor will they ever justify the means.

 

[Kelly]

I would love for someone to find me a union that is being run well....as in, they are not bankrupting their state, businesses etc....they are ONLY there to make sure that their members are getting fair wages, fair benefits and fair retirement plans in comparison to others in their chosen field.....

I really would like to have an example of one of those....

 

[Denny67]

I would love for someone to find me a union that is being run well....as in, they are not bankrupting their state, businesses etc....they are ONLY there to make sure that their members are getting fair wages, fair benefits and fair retirement plans in comparison to others in their chosen field.....

I really would like to have an example of one of those....

If you are serious about wanting to know, it is a simple matter of looking where public employees are concerned. By law it is all a matter of public record. Try starting in your home state.

 

[dnno1]

I would love for someone to find me a union that is being run well....as in, they are not bankrupting their state, businesses etc....they are ONLY there to make sure that their members are getting fair wages, fair benefits and fair retirement plans in comparison to others in their chosen field.....

I really would like to have an example of one of those....

Look up the Teamsters union.

 

[dnno1]

Well of course you didn't have the exodus back in the 80's....we didn't have the global infrastructure for business like we do today. You can't even compare the two decades in that way, they are totally different situations.

Yes you can. I don't know if you lived in the 1980's, but I did and that was the era of designer jeans that were made in Taiwain. So were computer circuit boards. I remember very well how IBM evenutally lost their market share of the personal computer business to Chinese clones. The shipping of jobs overseas goes way back to the 1950's and 60's when you found certain items that were made in Japan. It only got worse after the trade laws changed to allow businesses a tax shelter.

 

[Kelly]

Yes you can. I don't know if you lived in the 1980's, but I did and that was the era of designer jeans that were made in Taiwain. So were computer circuit boards. I remember very well how IBM evenutally lost their market share of the personal computer business to Chinese clones. The shipping of jobs overseas goes way back to the 1950's and 60's when you found certain items that were made in Japan. It only got worse after the trade laws changed to allow businesses a tax shelter.

No you can't....because the global market is completely different than it was back then. It wasn't a decade of setting up an infrastructure for trade it was a decade of backing non-communist regimes, and enormous amounts of foreign aid...not global trade infrastructure building...

And the bolded part made me laugh. Um, yes, and the 70's.... I don't think I've lived on this earth as long as you have, but yes I remember the 80's fondly.

 

[Kelly]

Look up the Teamsters union.

So what you are telling me is, is that the Teamsters union employees, their wages, benefits and retirement packages are equal to those that are not a member of this union, but a part of providing the services that the teamsters do?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Kelly]

If you are serious about wanting to know, it is a simple matter of looking where public employees are concerned. By law it is all a matter of public record. Try starting in your home state.

Well, I have quite a few examples of their wages, benefits, and retirement packages not being equal or even slightly more than the average public employee (which I am), the examples I have show them as far from fair in the service industry sector....I'm an example of that... I posted examples from Wisconsin of that...you just saw from New Jersey an example of it... New York is filled with examples of it. So, not sure that the "Public Sector" is the unions you want to use.

 

[Denny67]

I saw partial information in regards to a negotiation. But, I have also seen those who assert that people who have earned a master degree, earn 50k a year, have insurance which provides 80/20 coverage and put in over the course of a career and will draw 70-80% of their 3 highest earning years in retirement as being “overpaid.”

 

[chaseter]

There are no good public sector union examples. They don't do anything good. Their one and only purpose is to elect people that will get them the most that they can get for their members. Then when they are asked to cut back or cut fellow members, they throw the underlings under the bus.

 

[dnno1]

No you can't....because the global market is completely different than it was back then. It wasn't a decade of setting up an infrastructure for trade it was a decade of backing non-communist regimes, and enormous amounts of foreign aid...not global trade infrastructure building...

And the bolded part made me laugh. Um, yes, and the 70's.... I don't think I've lived on this earth as long as you have, but yes I remember the 80's fondly.

Yet there was an exodus of manufacturing jobs specifically in the electronics, toy, and garment industries. Like I said before, it was only because the trade laws were changed that we see the mass exodus that we have now. Once businesses saw that they could shelter their income from taxes overseas, they took advantage of it. If that incentive went away you would see more jobs return.

 

[chaseter]

I saw partial information in regards to a negotiation. But, I have also seen those who assert that people who have earned a master degree, earn 50k a year, have insurance which provides 80/20 coverage and put in over the course of a career and will draw 70-80% of their 3 highest earning years in retirement as being “overpaid.”

And they pad those 3 years by working overtime so that they get more in retirement and of course their pension pays them a hefty percentage until they die. So you can work 20 years, retire, get your pension, and even go out and get another job so that you have two sources of income.

Nobody still can answer what public unions have done to advance worker's rights since their inception in the 60s.

 

[chaseter]

Yet there was an exodus of manufacturing jobs specifically in the electronics, toy, and garment industries. Like I said before, it was only because the trade laws were changed that we see the mass exodus that we have now. Once businesses saw that they could shelter their income from taxes overseas, they took advantage of it. If that incentive went away you would see more jobs return.

Would you rather pay $5000 dollars for a laptop or $1000? Would you rather pay $60,000 for a vehicle or $20,000?

If the same thing can be produced else where for cheaper, we all benefit with lower costs. So what if electronics are produced over seas. I love being able to get an amazing tv for $800. You shop at Walmart. You shop at Best Buy. You shop at Target. You are guilty of supporting jobs being shipped over seas. Only buy American made products and see how much money you have then.

Sometimes I think you view the world with rose tinted glasses.

 

[dnno1]

So what you are telling me is, is that the Teamsters union employees, their wages, benefits and retirement packages are equal to those that are not a member of this union, but a part of providing the services that the teamsters do?

Is that what you are saying?

You're re-framing the question, Kel. You asked to name a union that was run well, was not bankrupting the state, was "ONLY there to make sure that their members are getting fair wages, fair benefits and fair retirement plans in comparison to others in their chosen field". That's what the Teamsters union is doing. They are decentralized so you really can't accuse them of corruption. Since they fight for better wages, it only serves to increase the amount of taxes a worker pays the state, so they are not bankrupting them, and I don't think you can find any teamster who is complaining about their benefit and retirement packages. Whether these perks are equal to or better than a non-union member is outside the scope of your original inquiry.

 

[Denny67]

And they pad those 3 years by working overtime so that they get more in retirement and of course their pension pays them a hefty percentage until they die. So you can work 20 years, retire, get your pension, and even go out and get another job so that you have two sources of income.

Nobody still can answer what public unions have done to advance worker's rights since their inception in the 60s.

Where that may be the case in some instances to say that is true of all public employees is not even close to be factual. In many sectors over time is not even authorized without a ton of red tape. It especially does not hold water when looking at those who are salaried and not hourly.

If we did look closer at those people you would see many who end up donating many, many hours over the course of career or diminishing their overall hourly earnings… depending how you want to look at it.

So much of that is more myth than fact... but hey is sounds real good when it is supporting the argument.