Discussion: All Things Union

[chaseter]

Apparently the Democratic State Senators have gone on strike:

State Democrats absent for vote as Wisconsin budget protests swell

They should all be impeached and fired for not doing their job that they were elected to do at the cost of the tax payer.

 

[Marx]

I think there's a little more to it than that. All of the 'union busting' being proposed by Republicans in Wisconsin is pretty shifty. The three unions that are not being threatened to be busted (police, fire, state) are the same unions that supported the Republican governor. All other unions are being threatened to broken up.

 

[chaseter]

Those Republicans doing backdoor deals will have their day when all of this comes back to bite them in the butt just like it did with Democrats from them handing out billions upon billions to the same unions. Your example shows how corrupt unions and politicians are together. They are eating each other alive and politicians are making backdoor deals with certain unions to try and keep their jobs with their voting bloc and those certain unions to try and keep their current benefits.

 

[Marx]

I just think there's enough shadiness on this subject to go around. To lay it all on the feet of the Democrats is not wise. (Especially when the only unions not being threatened are the ones who support the Republican governor.)

 

[SentinelMind]

The Democratic legislators should still fulfill their legal responsibilities to the state regardless of whether they like the bill.

 

[SentinelMind]

The violent imagery from the Left has me very worried.

 

[The Squirrel]

What? The Left with violent signs? That can't be right. They must be tea partiers.

 

[Marx]

I see what you're both trying to do...

 

[hippie_hunter]

They do bring up a point though.

 

[Handsome Rob]

The violent imagery from the Left has me very worried.

If the Unions ever want me to take them seriously, they need to denounce this violent, extremist rhetoric. How long will it be until rhetoric like this inspires a nutjob to pull another Tucson?

Seriously, though . . .

What's hilarious to me is that public sector employees are in a unique position that private employees or even unions don't have:

If a private employees' or unions' labor costs are too high, that can drive up the cost of goods and services. If enough people don't buy, then the company they work for can go out of business (unless the federal government bails them out, of course). So, the market can work to keep labor costs in check in the private sector.

Public sector unions are different. The revenue that comes in from them is mandated (taxes, fees, etc.). So, the market can't really keep costs under control by competition or by people just choosing to do without. This is what contributes to the crushing weight of public sector unions on government costs.

The market, when allowed to work properly, provides a check to exploding costs. Government largesse, without competition and able to demand more revenue via more taxes, fees, etc., doesn't have the same natural control for costs. And, without that control, you can have what occurred in Vallejo, CA.

 

[chaseter]

A police officer hanging out at the movies on a busy Friday night to keep crowds under control makes $122 grand? WTF I want to be a cawp in Vallejo!

 

[chaseter]

I like how this part in that article also refutes dnno's factcheck.org article. This woman must also be a GOP mouth piece.

But that no longer seems to hold true. According to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, the hourly salary (before benefits) of public-sector professionals (including teachers and lawyers) was $31.51 in December 2007, virtually identical to the $31.75 for private-sector professionals. Public-sector service employees (including many blue-collar jobs) averaged $16.72 an hour in salary, compared to $9.87 for private-sector employees.

 

[BlackLantern]

manual labor always makes more....my roommate is a mechanic and he makes about 30-40 percent more a week than I do

 

[dnno1]

Factcheck.org is notoriously left wing. It even says in the article that this is a GOP talking point and now here is the truth! But then there is one little flaw in your factcheck.org link. They want to leave out pension, health insurance, and other benefits that WE AS THE TAX PAYER, pay for. So yes that should be counted in with their salary. They are getting publicly funded retirement. They are getting publicly funded health care. But, factcheck.org doesn't want to include that to say that poor public workers are making less than private sector workers so the big bad GOP is wrong. The private sector worker is paying more into their own retirement and insurance than public sector workers. So yes, that should be included in their salary.

Some days I don't even think you know what you are talking about. FactCheck is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that is funded by the Annenburg Foundation (Walter H. Annenburg is a Republican). It is not that they are left wing, it it just that Republicans lie alot or don't get their facts straight. If you paid attention, though, you would see that FactCheck catches the left wing slipping up from time to time as well. I will discuss about pensions later.

Name me one thing that public employee unions have done in the past 20 years that have benefited everyone. Please tell why union dues go to re-election campaigns for politicians and how that benefits everyone.

I can tell you more than one thing. Public employee unions fought for health care and a better wages for all employees. If you are getting paid well it is more than likely influenced by a union. The absense of unions leaves employees to the whim of the employer.

Please tell me why bad workers are protected from being fired and how that benefits everyone.

Your answer is because it is a misconception. Union contracts generally require that an employer proove just cause for firing an employee. If there were no such agreement, an employer could fire you for no reason or just a suspicion, anytime they wanted and that wouldn't be right. The mere accusation that an employee may have done something wrong does not constitute his dismissal or make him a bad employee. That has to be proven.

Please explain to me why states are going bankrupt if not for unfunded public employee pensions.

States are going bankrupt because of the loss of revenue due to high unemployment. In the case of Wisconsin, their 2009-2011 biennial budget had a surplus of about $121.4 million though... Until Scott Walker and his buddies pushed through $140 million in spending to special intrest groups last month. They only need to recind or delay the spending to make all this ginned up crisis and the protesting go away.

Please explain to me why public employee pensions and healthcare are funded by tax payers who cannot receive the same services and how that benefits everyone.

They are not. Public employee pensions are funded by the employees as well as investments by the fund. The California Public Employee Retirement System is an example of that. Health care is a benfit that is negotiated into the collective barganing agreement in lieu of higher pay. This is no different than in other industries where employees get health care benefits. Over 63% of Amercians get their health care from employer based plans and not all of them are in unions (remember, about 7% of the workforce is unionized today). Why shouldn't they get health care coverage when that seems to be the norm from most employers in the private industry?

You know what the difference is between a mob forcing a shop owner to pay for protection and a union forcing members to pay dues is? One is legal! Union bosses are the exact same thing as mob bosses.

There is more corporate corruption to worry about than there is corruption in unions. Let's not get it twisted here.

No one should take away their right to assemble and to voice their opinions. But, forcing people to pay dues is nothing more than a ponzi scheme. A big legal ponzi scheme. If bad workers and teachers weren't protected with millions of dollars behind them, then we would all benefit. If instead of union dues being taken, salaries were lowered but those people still receive the same take home amount then prices on everything unions have their hands in would lower and we would all benefit. If bad politicians that only care about their own job didn't have millions of dollars behind them from union bosses then they wouldn't get re-elected and we would all benefit. Now who are the selfish ones here?

Paying dues is part of the agreement to joining a union. It is the price of being a member and being represented at the barganing table. Just like you conservatives say about buying car insurance though, just as you do not have to drive a car, you do not have to work for a company that has a union, if that seems to be a problem for you. As far as being a ponzi scheme that is far from the truth. There is something behind the dues when you join a union. Once again there is representation at the barganing table that leads to better pay and benefits. That doesn't fit the defintion of a ponzi scheme.

 

[dnno1]

I like how this part in that article also refutes dnno's factcheck.org article. This woman must also be a GOP mouth piece.

$31.51 is less than $31.75 by my count. Now as far as manual labor goes, the private sector tends to hire folks who are non-certified. That is not the case in the public sector (don't tell me the guy from Jiffy Lube or Pep Boys is certified), which probably would justify the higher wage.

 

[Superman]

The violent imagery from the Left has me very worried.

This is wrong no matter what side is doing it.

I just love though how Right Wingers jump on this kind of stuff when the Left does it but ignors it when the Right does it.

 

[Tao43]

This is wrong no matter what side is doing it.

I just love though how Right Wingers jump on this kind of stuff when the Left does it but ignors it when the Right does it.

Lefties do the exact same thing. Condemn when the Right does it, look the other way when the Left does it.

 

[chaseter]

$31.51 is less than $31.75 by my count. Now as far as manual labor goes, the private sector tends to hire folks who are non-certified. That is not the case in the public sector (don't tell me the guy from Jiffy Lube or Pep Boys is certified), which probably would justify the higher wage.

Look at the service employee comparison you forgot to look at.

Then when you throw in benefits, where public sector clearly are leaps and bounds ahead and at the cost of the tax payer, you have a very large discrepancy between wages. Who pays more into their retirement? Public or private? Who pays more into their health insurance? Public or private? So who do you think has more take home? I guess factcheck.org doesn't fact check common sense.

 

[Marx]

This is wrong no matter what side is doing it.

I just love though how Right Wingers jump on this kind of stuff when the Left does it but ignors it when the Right does it.

Exactly.

 

[BlackLantern]

yup

 

[The Squirrel]

Lefties do the exact same thing. Condemn when the Right does it, look the other way when the Left does it.

Exactly. A few seem to be doing it in this thread.

 

[StorminNorman]

This is wrong no matter what side is doing it.

I just love though how Right Wingers jump on this kind of stuff when the Left does it but ignors it when the Right does it.

I would hope this would be ironic, but I know better.

 

[Superman]

Lefties do the exact same thing. Condemn when the Right does it, look the other way when the Left does it.

I can agree with that, I've seen it happen. Still not right.

Like I said, It's wrong nomatter what side is doing it.

 

[StorminNorman]

You miss the subtly of tongue-in-cheek.

Marx didn't.

 

[chaseter]

I like how these Wisconsin teachers pay 0.2% into their pension, yes that means that the tax payer pays the other small 99.8%, and they go on strike for having to pay 5% in the future. That is absolutely disgusting. The governor should say that if they aren't at work Monday morning, they are fired...plain and simple. I love how people are defending these strikes. A bunch of greedy people that eat each other alive and would rather the entire ship sink than they do their own work to try and keep the boat afloat.

I wish I only paid 0.2% into my 401k. That would be nice!