Discussion: All Things Union

[StorminNorman]

When the subject is yourself, trophies are facts.

Look at the situation in context, Kel. It wasn't me randomly bringing it up to prove a point about another topic, it was one of your fellow mods seeing fit to go out of his way to attack me. The subject was specifically questioning the validity of my own opinion.

And I admit that it is a perfectly valid point. As was my response. What right do I have to criticize someone who has had the success of John Boehner if I don't have success of my own right? Who am I to question the main stream notions on issues such as economics, history and political science if my opinion itself hasn't been recognized by others?

Look, if all I did was talk about how great I am all the time - this would be a valid argument. But this was the first time I mentioned it, and only when the topic being about me. I spend as much time going to the meat of the subject as anyone here.

 

[StorminNorman]

Perhaps a better question is why it's okay for a Hype Moderator to go out of his way to make a petty inflammatory remark about a poster? And this isn't the first time. Matt and C.Lee both have done it. Even this was more appropriate for a PM.

 

[C. Lee]

Perhaps a better question is why it's okay for a Hype Moderator to go out of his way to make a petty inflammatory remark about a poster? And this isn't the first time. Matt and C.Lee both have done it. Even this was more appropriate for a PM.

Why didn't you put Matt and my names in bold font like you did all the other mods? Are you trying to be petty and inflammatory?

 

[dnno1]

So...Do whatever you can get away with?

You are a beacon of morality.

No, negotiating a deal for yourself is a way of life. We do that when we shop in the marketplace, look for a school to attend and seek the job we want to work at. That is not immoral at all. Big corporations and governments do that all the time. Why do you want to demonize someone who unionizes and attempts to do that for themselves?

 

[dnno1]

State workers do not have a right to collectively bargain, they have a contract to collectively bargain. It takes two sides to have a contract. One side says that they don't want to do it anymore. The end.

The fact that they have a contract with the union means that they negotiated to get an agreement and hence they exercised their right to collectively bargain. The contract only doccuments what was bargained. Now, end of story.

How did he have a surplus? Why does this say otherwise?
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102748564.html
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/109275069.html

The Milwalkee Journal Sentinel says one thing, but the Wisconsin State Legislative Fiscal Bureau said that there was $121.4 million in the general fund as of January 1 of this year. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau is the State of Wisconsin's equivalent of the CBO. By June 30th, there would have still been about $56 million left, but Gov. Walker gave out tax breaks to lobbyists last month that basically blew the budget. As far as JSonline goes, I remember Fox News and other right wing media floating around the fraudulent story that the President was spending $200 million a day on his trip to India and that wasn't true either. It was a talking point to get Walker elected.

How would accepting money from the federal government for high speed rail fix the problem? Secondly, why the flying **** would middle of no where Wisconsin with 5 million people in its entire state need a ****ing high speed train? Dear Jesus wtf!?

It would have created jobs in the State of Wisconsin that would have served to increase tax revenue in the way of income, sales, and property taxes. To answer the second part of the question, the long range goal would have been to establish corridors to connect cities like Maddison, Milwakee, and Mineapolis, Maddson, and Chicago, Milwakee and Chicago, and other cities. Right now, though, and I have mentioned it before, there are no federal (and state) regulations for high speed rail above 200 to 220 mph, so the initial money would have gone into building test tracks to not only bench mark the technology, but also develop safety standards for both the state and federal regulations.

This is on the greedy unions who make the exact same salary on average as the private sector worker but have exorbitant benefits that go far and beyond what any private sector worker can ever dream of. Get real, it's time for everyone to cut back and that means poor ole unions.

Hey, I work in the private sector as a non-union employee and I get just as good in benefits as any union employee. Once again, it is up to the individual to negotiate his or her own benefit package in the private sector. If you are not getting good benefits and you don't want union representation, then it is up to you to do something about that. Whning about it on a bulletin board is not going to change much about that.

 

[Handsome Rob]

The Milwalkee Journal Sentinel says one thing, but the Wisconsin State Legislative Fiscal Bureau said that there was $121.4 million in the general fund as of January 1 of this year. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau is the State of Wisconsin's equivalent of the CBO. By June 30th, there would have still been about $56 million left, but Gov. Walker gave out tax breaks to lobbyists last month that basically blew the budget. As far as JSonline goes, I remember Fox News and other right wing media floating around the fraudulent story that the President was spending $200 million a day on his trip to India and that wasn't true either. It was a talking point to get Walker elected.

I'd be careful about citing CNN iReport, which CNN specifically states as not edited, fact-checked, or screened by CNN before being posted. This guy isn't giving you the whole story.

The $121.4 million surplus figure came from a memo issued by Robert Lang, director of the Fiscal Bureau. However, according to a later interview, he stated that the surplus figure did not include pending costs in the budget that had yet to be funded. Lang stated that if these are funded/paid in the current year (to the tune of $258 million), then the balance drops from a surplus to a deficit. And to give you a parallel to business, if a corporation knew they were going to have to shell out a large amount of money, they'd be required to take the hit to their NOI in the period they learn they will have to pay it . . . even if the actual payout doesn't occur until the next year.

Further, the tax cuts cited as supposedly causing the deficit don't take effect until the new budget year, beginning on July 1 (the beginning of WI's fiscal year). So, the current budget deficit has nothing to do with the tax cuts passed.

So, in summary:

1. The current surplus is only a surplus because not all potential costs are included in the balance.
2. The tax cuts that supposedly caused the surplus to go to a current deficit don't even take effect until July 1. So, even if you refuse to acknowledge the $258 million payable, there is still a current surplus.


Source: The Wall Street Journal

Source: The Actual Memo**

**The detail for the $258 million is on page 3. $58 million is an as-yet-unpaid balance owed by Wisconsin to Minnesota, and it was supposed to be paid on 12/1/10. The remaining $200 million is a court-ordered mandated transfer of monies out of the general fund and into a compensation fund (where it originally was).

 

[chaseter]

You get just as good benefits dnno? You only pay 0.2% into your retirement and 5% for healthcare? That is awesome! Congrats on that! Is this company Dnno Inc?

HAHA but wait! Rachel Maddow says otherwise. Who to trust, who to trust. I wonder what side she will be on and how she will spin things. Because of course all of those local Wisconsin papers are terribly right leaning GOP talking centers.

Whining about it on a bulleting board isn't going to change anything correct. Quoting me and telling me what you think isn't doing anything either.

 

[Marx]

You get just as good benefits dnno? You only pay 0.2% into your retirement and 5% for healthcare? That is awesome! Congrats on that! Is this company Dnno Inc?

HAHA but wait! Rachel Maddow says otherwise. Who to trust, who to trust. I wonder what side she will be on and how she will spin things. Because of course all of those local Wisconsin papers are terribly right leaning GOP talking centers.

Whining about it on a bulleting board isn't going to change anything correct. Quoting me and telling me what you think isn't doing anything either.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Rachel Maddow's coverage of this event has been pretty on point.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Is it not obvious that the GOP is engaging in all out Class Warfare?


Let's destroy the Middle Class. How can we do that? Unions are directly responsible for the creation of this demographic. Let's just make organized labor illegal. And we can also shrink government by stopping funding to them. Teachers. Firemen. Police officers. All of them need to quit anyway and become minimum wage workers. Oh and get rid of the minimum wage.



How do we destroy the Lower Class? Easy. Just quit giving them entitlements. No welfare. Stop funding Healthcare. Get rid of food stamps and WIC. They'll all head to the streets eventually. Not like people who receive these grants are actually working at those minimum wage jobs we hate. Besides we can use the money we save to cover the money we already spent on lobbyists for the Defense of Marriage.


If we do this then the private sector will take care of the "right kind of people". We need to kick out all these anchor babies anyway. Clean this country up. Get our country back. Back to the 1870's like it should be.

 

[Marx]

The GOP has long had an 'image' problem. Things like this do not help them break that image.

 

[Handsome Rob]

Is it not obvious that the GOP is engaging in all out Class Warfare?


Let's destroy the Middle Class. How can we do that? Unions are directly responsible for the creation of this demographic. Let's just make organized labor illegal. And we can also shrink government by stopping funding to them. Teachers. Firemen. Police officers. All of them need to quit anyway and become minimum wage workers. Oh and get rid of the minimum wage.



How do we destroy the Lower Class? Easy. Just quit giving them entitlements. No welfare. Stop funding Healthcare. Get rid of food stamps and WIC. They'll all head to the streets eventually. Not like people who receive these grants are actually working at those minimum wage jobs we hate. Besides we can use the money we save to cover the money we already spent on lobbyists for the Defense of Marriage.


If we do this then the private sector will take care of the "right kind of people". We need to kick out all these anchor babies anyway. Clean this country up. Get our country back. Back to the 1870's like it should be.

Short on facts. Long on hyperbole.

Typical leftist drivel.

 

[chaseter]

Whether you want to admit it or not, Rachel Maddow's coverage of this event has been pretty on point.

Raise taxes on businesses to cover the deficit or have union member contribute more and still be way above the equivalent of the private sector. Which one do you think she chose?

And some of you people wonder why jobs are going overseas. Raise taxes on businesses during a recession

 

[Handsome Rob]

Fake Doctors' Notes Being Handed Out at Wisconsin Gov. Union Rally

http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02...eing-handed-out-at-wisconsin-gov-union-rally/

Gotta love the ethics of those protestors!!

 

[Kelly]

I was amazed at that....that is full out fraud.

I'm all for them having the right to protest. I actually think its kind of cool that you have 2 such passionate sides of this issue....side by side, protesting peacefully. That is cool to me....

But, damn have some integrity....speaking as a teacher, I think it is pretty sad that there is a possibility that as a teacher stands side by side with their students (which is happening) they would lie and have a doctor commit fraud so they can be sure and be paid...

I'm not saying this particular thing has happened, but there is the possibility and that is sad.

 

[Franklin Richards]

This is a non-issue and just something FOX thought up to spin the attention away from the issue.


I suppose this is horrible as well?

Medical excuses are given by doctors for being "tired". Doctors in Chicago give them out for Cubs games. This is deliberate distraction.

 

[dnno1]

You get just as good benefits dnno? You only pay 0.2% into your retirement and 5% for healthcare? That is awesome! Congrats on that! Is this company Dnno Inc?

HAHA but wait! Rachel Maddow says otherwise. Who to trust, who to trust. I wonder what side she will be on and how she will spin things. Because of course all of those local Wisconsin papers are terribly right leaning GOP talking centers.

Whining about it on a bulleting board isn't going to change anything correct. Quoting me and telling me what you think isn't doing anything either.

Actually, I pay 8% into my retirement (I could actually pay up to 15%, but I invest outside of that) and my health care is about $40 a month for family coverage with a $25 co-pay (if I see a doctor). My company matches 75% of my contributions every 3 years. That's without a union, thankyou. Now what were you whining about?

 

[Handsome Rob]

This is a non-issue and just something FOX thought up to spin the attention away from the issue.


Medical excuses are given by doctors for being "tired". Doctors in Chicago give them out for Cubs games. This is deliberate distraction.

I didn't get it from FoxNews.

And it is unethical, even if you would like to pretend otherwise.

 

[Kelly]

This is a non-issue and just something FOX thought up to spin the attention away from the issue.


I suppose this is horrible as well?

Medical excuses are given by doctors for being "tired". Doctors in Chicago give them out for Cubs games. This is deliberate distraction.

People do things they shouldn't, and are wrong, and unethical, every day.....doesn't make them any less wrong, and unethical....

My doctor would never sign one of these without a proper examination, in his office....why? because it is fraud....

issue or not, its wrong....

Now, mind you, I'm not sure of all of the ins and outs of this thing, I'm hearing a lot of screaming on both sides. I know the governor's side, and I heard "one teacher" give a pretty good explanation of where she is coming from....most everyone else has been "WE CAN'T AFFORD YOUR RETIRMENET ANYMORE" VS. "YOU'RE JUST UNION BUSTING"....

I think the governor and that one teacher need to sit down and talk...

 

[chaseter]

Actually, I pay 8% into my retirement (I could actually pay up to 15%, but I invest outside of that) and my health care is about $40 a month for family coverage with a $25 co-pay (if I see a doctor). My company matches 75% of my contributions every 3 years. That's without a union, thankyou. Now what were you whining about?

8% is really far away from 0.5% and I don't know your salary but the national average for health insurance is 20-something%. The difference here as always is that the tax payer picks up the slack, not a private company that if it's employees suck it dry it ceases to exist.

 

[chaseter]

I didn't get it from FoxNews.

And it is unethical, even if you would like to pretend otherwise.

The DNC is also shipping in protesters from out of state to make the crowds bigger.

 

[Kelly]

I would assume that the Tea Party is doing the same exact thing....that happens in every protest.

 

[SentinelMind]

I suppose this is horrible as well?

Yes, just because the fraud isn't being taken seriously anymore doesn't excuse the ethics and legality of it.

Those particular teachers are abusing "sick days", a tax payer funded benefit approved under certain conditions, in order to join protests aimed at negotiating their benefits at the tax payer and student's expense. It is unethical and illegal...just like it is for the Wisconsin Democrats to abandon their state and to resist call for quorum by Sargeant-at-arms and police officers.

The amount of fraud, illegal activity, and high level of intimidation being displayed at these protests against budgetary fiscal responsibility is very disturbing....

 

[dnno1]

I'd be careful about citing CNN iReport, which CNN specifically states as not edited, fact-checked, or screened by CNN before being posted. This guy isn't giving you the whole story.

The $121.4 million surplus figure came from a memo issued by Robert Lang, director of the Fiscal Bureau. However, according to a later interview, he stated that the surplus figure did not include pending costs in the budget that had yet to be funded. Lang stated that if these are funded/paid in the current year (to the tune of $258 million), then the balance drops from a surplus to a deficit. And to give you a parallel to business, if a corporation knew they were going to have to shell out a large amount of money, they'd be required to take the hit to their NOI in the period they learn they will have to pay it . . . even if the actual payout doesn't occur until the next year.

Further, the tax cuts cited as supposedly causing the deficit don't take effect until the new budget year, beginning on July 1 (the beginning of WI's fiscal year). So, the current budget deficit has nothing to do with the tax cuts passed.

So, in summary:

1. The current surplus is only a surplus because not all potential costs are included in the balance.
2. The tax cuts that supposedly caused the surplus to go to a current deficit don't even take effect until July 1. So, even if you refuse to acknowledge the $258 million payable, there is still a current surplus.


Source: The Wall Street Journal

Source: The Actual Memo**

**The detail for the $258 million is on page 3. $58 million is an as-yet-unpaid balance owed by Wisconsin to Minnesota, and it was supposed to be paid on 12/1/10. The remaining $200 million is a court-ordered mandated transfer of monies out of the general fund and into a compensation fund (where it originally was).

I see where I placed the wrong link in my post. I meant to cite the actual letter from the Wisonsin State Legislative Finance Bureau, which you posted. Even though there is an outstanding debt of $258 million that has yet to be paid, it doesn't mean that the state is broke nor does it change the fact that there is/was a surplus in the general fund an the time the letter was drafted. Just to give you an idea of what I am saying. Most of us certainly don't have the money to buy a home or a car, and yet many of us still can purchase one. Many of us have a debt on said items that are unpaid, but yet there is still money in our savings accounts at the bank. That doesn't mean we are broke. Just as that is the case, the fact that there is an unpaid debt doesn't mean that the State of Wisconsin is broke either.

Furthermore, it seems like the debt owed by the State of Wisconsin can be attributed to things other than unions. The tax credits that were granted in Special Senate Bill 2 and Assembly Bill 3 will lower revenues by $117 million. If the Governor knew or belived that the state had budget shortfalls (and trully belived that they were broke), why did he lower the state's source of revenue? Usually, when on is strapped for cash one of the first things they do is ask the boss for a raise. Also the outstanding unpaid debt is attributed to Medicaid and reciprocity between the State of Wisconsin and the State of Minnesota, which has no scheduled date to be paid at this time (as to why it was not listed in the budget), is not the fault of unions. The the two states should blame themselves for not taxing workers accordingly for earning wages in their respective state. They certainly do that with professional atheletes so I don't see why they didn't think of doing that with the regular folks. This is obviouly an attempt to destroy the unions and their ability to fund political campaigns which is not only unjust, but unconstitutional.

 

[dnno1]

8% is really far away from 0.5% and I don't know your salary but the national average for health insurance is 20-something%. The difference here as always is that the tax payer picks up the slack, not a private company that if it's employees suck it dry it ceases to exist.

What does the 8% I contribute to my retirement plan have to do with my health insurance? I think you are mixing apples with oranges here. My point is that I am an non union employee and I have just as good benefits as anyone in a union. There are thosands of other folks in my boat as well. As far as the tax payer goes, that only applies to the folks on Medicaid and the the ones who show up at the emergency room with no health insurance. I don't know what you are referring to about the 20-somthing %, but I do know that 20% or more of the population are uninsured, but I am not sure how that translates into what the taxpayer has to contribute to take care of them. As far as I know it is too much -- to the point that we had to mandate that everyone get health insurance so as to take that burden away.

 

[dnno1]

Why didn't you put Matt and my names in bold font like you did all the other mods? Are you trying to be petty and inflammatory?

He might be trying to send a subliminal message just to Kel.