Discussion: All Things Union

[StorminNorman]

No. I think I'm giving rich people money when I give them tax cuts. I didn't say raise their taxes. I said tax cuts.

As long as you aren't referring to the 2010 extension, that flies. Even then, however, there is a difference between taking less money from people who earned it and giving out additional money.

Even then, I don't want to pay for a teacher's retirement any more than I want them to pay for my own.

 

[dnno1]

You didn't see Republicans flee from Congress when it became inevitable that Obamacare would pass. When Obama and the Progressive Democrats passed things like cap and trade, the stimulus, etc., Republicans stayed in Washington and opposed the bills the way legislators should do.

There's a difference between bickering while trying to prevent legislation you're opposed to and flat out running away like an ******* because you have a 100% chance of defeat.

That's because all that is needed in the U.S. Congress is a simple majority in the House or the Senate to have a quorum, which the Democrats had in both cases. Had the Republican party just fled the hall of Congress, the Democrates would have had their way with all legislation without any recourse. The Republican strategy during the health care debate was to force a super-majority (60 votes) in the senate to get any legislation passed. In addition, the way the Senate rules are set, a minority has the ability to filibuster a bill (without being present) on the Senate floor until a super-majority may cause cloture of debate. In Wisconsin, the Senate Republicans do not make up a majority and thus the reason why the Senate Democrats fled the state. That is not the case in Ohio as to why their anti-collective bargaining legislation is going to pass.

 

[Marx]

As if the intentions behind this bill weren't transparent enough before...

UPDATE: OHIO 'UNION BUSTING' BILL INCLUDES ANTI-GAY SECTION
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/03/04/Ohio_AntiLabor_Bill_Goes_Antigay/

You have a GOP-led bill in Wisconsin trying to destroy unions that primarily support the Democrats and a GOP-led bill in Ohio that includes an anti-gay provision. How anyone can believe either of these GOP governors are doing this 'for the state budget' is beyond me...

 

[Paradoxium]

They're not for the state of the budget. They are demagogues. But it doesn't mean there isn't a problem either.

 

[Superman]

That's because all that is needed in the U.S. Congress is a simple majority in the House or the Senate to have a quorum, which the Democrats had in both cases. Had the Republican party just fled the hall of Congress, the Democrates would have had their way with all legislation without any recourse. The Republican strategy during the health care debate was to force a super-majority (60 votes) in the senate to get any legislation passed. In addition, the way the Senate rules are set, a minority has the ability to filibuster a bill (without being present) on the Senate floor until a super-majority may cause cloture of debate. In Wisconsin, the Senate Republicans do not make up a majority and thus the reason why the Senate Democrats fled the state. That is not the case in Ohio as to why their anti-collective bargaining legislation is going to pass.

Exactly.

If the repubs in Congress could have stopped the health care bill by "fleeing" you would have seen a convoy of repubs as they left DC.

So don't give us that BS about how the repubs stayed in Washington because they would do the exact same thing the Dems are doing if the opportunity came up.

 

[Marx]

They're not for the state of the budget. They are demagogues. But it doesn't mean there isn't a problem either.

I'm not suggesting that unions are infallible. I'm just sickened by the amount of arrogance and self-righteousness of both the Wisconsin and Ohio governors.

 

[Superman]

As if the intentions behind this bill weren't transparent enough before...

UPDATE: OHIO 'UNION BUSTING' BILL INCLUDES ANTI-GAY SECTION
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/03/04/Ohio_AntiLabor_Bill_Goes_Antigay/

You have a GOP-led bill in Wisconsin trying to destroy unions that primarily support the Democrats and a GOP-led bill in Ohio that includes an anti-gay provision. How anyone can believe either of these GOP governors are doing this 'for the state budget' is beyond me...

Oh good lord, And people wonder why I can't stand Right Wingers.

 

[Marx]

Oh good lord, And people wonder why I can't stand Right Wingers.

Yeah. It's crap like this that really ticks me off. It's bad enough to attack unions who primarily support the other side to begin with. But to then include sections like this on top of it while HIDING behind a 'we're doing this for the sake of the state budget' line makes me sick beyond belief.

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: MICHAEL MOORE RALLIES CROWD IN WISCONSIN
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/america-is-not-broke_b_832006.html

 

[Matt]

I'd just like to say that I find it very curious that John Kasich, Scott Walker, and the members of the Ohio and Wisconsin state legislatures haven't taken a pay cut, despite saying that everyone needs to start making sacrifices.

 

[Marx]

I'd just like to say that I find it very curious that John Kasich, Scott Walker, and the members of the Ohio and Wisconsin state legislatures haven't taken a pay cut, despite saying that everyone needs to start making sacrifices.

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Matt]

Its amazing to me that these clowns can take six figure salaries complete with first class benefits and retirement packages (but aren't state legislature positions public work jobs?) and continue to say with a straight face that people who are struggling to make ends meet need to take pay cuts as "we all make sacrifices."

 

[Marx]

The whole thing is such a farce as far as I'm concerned...

 

[Kelly]

As a teacher, I wonder why "horrible teachers" who are PROVEN to be "horrible teachers" get the same pay that I do....that's what I often wonder.

I wonder why people ***** about our education system, yet allow policies to stay in place that keep BAD TEACHERS....that's what I often wonder.

 

[Paradoxium]

Equality. Slack off parasites should be treated and paid the same as their hard working meritocratic brethren. t:

 

[chaseter]

God I despise Michael Moore. He is so anti capitalist yet it is ironic that because of capitalism he has success and people listen to him. He bashes wealth yet he makes millions. He thinks wealth is a finite resource so the more one person has the less another can have yet he is a millionaire. He invests in the stock market he calls evil. He speaks for the working man but he lives in gross excess. Why anybody listens to that walking contradiction is beyond me. He only went to Wisconsin to make money. I would bet a thousand bucks he makes a movie about unions really, really soon.

 

[Marx]

As a teacher, I wonder why "horrible teachers" who are PROVEN to be "horrible teachers" get the same pay that I do....that's what I often wonder.

I wonder why people ***** about our education system, yet allow policies to stay in place that keep BAD TEACHERS....that's what I often wonder.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - unions are not infallible. The reasoning for Governor Walker and Governor Kasich's decisions to take this on are a joke. Neither of these governors are doing this 'for the state budget', they are doing it to push their own personal agenda.

 

[Kelly]

I don't really give a crap about their motive....I want something done that takes these unions to task... If this does, more power to it. Mind you, I don't know all of the ins and outs of how the "collective bargaining" ties the hands of individual districts, but I'm sure it does to some extent (how much extent, I don't know....I'm not sure anyone on this site debating this issue knows....but I do know that it does tie their hands to a point.....) THAT MAIN POINT is getting rid of bad teachers...as far as I'm concerned, it if helps in that area....if it helps to bring in "pay for the job you do...." then great. More power to them...

 

[chaseter]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - unions are not infallible. The reasoning for Governor Walker and Governor Kasich's decisions to take this on are a joke. Neither of these governors are doing this 'for the state budget', they are doing it to push their own personal agenda.

That is how most politicians are. The only reason politicians get in bed with unions is to keep their job. They are doing it to push their own personal agenda. Most politicians are slimy *****e bags.

 

[Obsidian]

I don't really give a crap about their motive....I want something done that takes these unions to task... If this does, more power to it. Mind you, I don't know all of the ins and outs of how the "collective bargaining" ties the hands of individual districts, but I'm sure it does to some extent (how much extent, I don't know....I'm not sure anyone on this site debating this issue knows....but I do know that it does tie their hands to a point.....) THAT MAIN POINT is getting rid of bad teachers...as far as I'm concerned, it if helps in that area....if it helps to bring in "pay for the job you do...." then great. More power to them...

Perhaps proper, constant qualitative teacher evaluations instead of judging a teacher's performance by test scores.

 

[Marx]

That is how most politicians are. The only reason politicians get in bed with unions is to keep their job. They are doing it to push their own personal agenda. Most politicians are slimy *****e bags.

You'll get no argument from me on that.

 

[Kelly]

Perhaps proper, constant qualitative teacher evaluations instead of judging a teacher's performance by test scores.

We have those, they are done through what are called ("walk through" which usually lasts around 15 minutes, and the full PDAS evaluation that is the culmination of all the walk thrus and full class evaluations)and if your students can't pass some of these tests I've seen in states that give tests, what they hell are they teaching in the class. I have absolutely no problem with part of the evaluation being my students test scores. Doesn't bother me a bit. Bring it on...

But the above won't matter if all the teacher has to do is get a union rep to the school and they pull the legal card, and "we have more money than your district, so try and fire our employee"...well, therein lies one of the problems.

 

[Anita18]

I'm not suggesting that unions are infallible. I'm just sickened by the amount of arrogance and self-righteousness of both the Wisconsin and Ohio governors.

At the same time I can't help but think that the Republicans/Tea Partiers have committed utter political suicide in WI and they JUST got into power...

And of course unions aren't infallible. Like all good ideas or bad ideas, it's all about execution. Just because we have a few bad ones doesn't mean we should do away with them altogether, that's just overkill.

 

[Marx]

I voted for Strickland.

 

[Kelly]

At the same time I can't help but think that the Republicans/Tea Partiers have committed utter political suicide in WI and they JUST got into power...

And of course unions aren't infallible. Like all good ideas or bad ideas, it's all about execution. Just because we have a few bad ones doesn't mean we should do away with them altogether, that's just overkill.

If it were a "few" I would have no problem...the problem are the states that are not "right to work" states...and that isn't just a "few"...

I can't remember what state this was, someone might know....

But a teacher in this particular state was the wife of someone running for a state legislative office. He is Republican...The Democratic candidate did a commercial that made inflammatory statements about her husband that she knew were not true. She called her Union Representative who pretty much told her... "grow thicker skin"...she then wanted her dues she paid back, because she knew they went to the opposing candidate. She was fine with it until the commercial, and she was told NO.

That is ********, and that stuff happens....ALL THE TIME.

That is WRONG, the dues should not go to ANY CANDIDATE, FOR ANY REASON. Or in the least, you should have the choice of whether your dues can be used for that or not....

It's **** like that that gives the Unions a bad name, along with the enormous golden deals they are giving their members in retirement, as they DON'T WORK anymore....and taxpayers pay for the bulk of it.....just not right, and that isn't a "few" bad apples....not by a long shot.