Discussion: All Things Union

In some cases people are working for 20-25 years, retiring at 50-55, and living to be 80-90, getting a pension for longer than they actually worked. WTF is that!? Sign me up!
 
Marx said:
I've said this before, and I'll say it again - unions are not infallible. The reasoning for Governor Walker and Governor Kasich's decisions to take this on are a joke. Neither of these governors are doing this 'for the state budget', they are doing it to push their own personal agenda.
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Kel said:
I don't really give a crap about their motive....I want something done that takes these unions to task... If this does, more power to it. Mind you, I don't know all of the ins and outs of how the "collective bargaining" ties the hands of individual districts, but I'm sure it does to some extent (how much extent, I don't know....I'm not sure anyone on this site debating this issue knows....but I do know that it does tie their hands to a point.....) THAT MAIN POINT is getting rid of bad teachers...as far as I'm concerned, it if helps in that area....if it helps to bring in "pay for the job you do...." then great. More power to them...
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The fact is, both sides are wrong. The unions have grown from an institution intended to protect workers from harsh and unfair conditions into political extensions of the Democratic Party with their own agenda and motivation that has little concern with protecting those they represent and more to do with maintaining the power of the higher ups of the union.

Meanwhile, politicians like Kasich and Walker are doing little more than grandstanding to get high profile attention while also kissing the collective asses of their base by going after easy targets. They have little to no interest in truly lowering budgets however, or they'd be targetting the pensions of state legislatures (which are far more generous than public worker pensions) and asking for a pay freeze or reduction for their own position.

A middle ground needs to be reached. The idea of no public employees being able to take part in collective bargaining is absurd. Teachers do need protection. You cannot hold a teacher who works in inner-city Cleveland who has a class where 45 % of the students show up high and another 45 % just doesn't show up, to the same standards as teachers in a posh suburb like Westlake (for those of you who do not know the area, Westlake is a Cleveland suburb where the average household income is $90,000 and only 2 % of the population is below the poverty line).

The fact is, parental and student involvement play too big of a role to set universal standards and that is why some form of collective bargaining is needed: to protect those who work in bad conditions (as unions were intended to do initially). Police, firefighters, etc all need unions for the same reason. To create protections from politicians like Walker and Kasich who are looking to boost their own career by putting them down.

Now, unions do need to make concessions. The union protections that keep the incompetent from being fired need to end. The union protections that give public workers double time pay on a holiday like flag day need to end. But the idea of taking away all negotiation rights is absurd. I think what we need to see happen is states need to make union membership voluntary (if you do not want to put your money into it, fine, but do not expect the union to protect you if needed) while also seeing a shift to more localized unions. Instead of national branches that have become powerful political entities, they should be local groups of workers negotiating on behalf of their coworkers.

Both sides are in the wrong and both sides need to start making concessions, IMO. Politicians need to stop targetting the middle class and instead trim their own fat. Meanwhile unions need to get back to what they were intended to do at conception, protect the workers, not enable them to perform poorly.
 
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Public employee unions were born in the 60s. What giant strides have they made for workers? These aren't the same as private sector unions that made gigantic leaps in worker's rights in the early-mid 20th century. These public unions were allowed by politicians as a means to get elected. That is why they were started in the first place! It's an organization that benefits some at the expense of others. The left talks up about how important public unions are to our society...then why don't we all have what they have? Why can't the poor teachers in Texas not have a 5% pension plan?

FDR, the champion of the working man, was against public unions. But yes, Walker is grandstanding.
 
I disagree Chase. When a police officer is wrongly accused of brutality, it is their union who protects them. When a teacher is being head hunted to get a school board member's cousin a job, the union protects them. Who do you think fights to get firefighters top of the line protective gear in light of budget cuts? Their union.

Public worker unions have their place. In the public sector, politics often trump what is fair and right. The employees need protections. I think the problem is, these protections have been taken too far. No one needs holiday pay on flag day or someone protecting them from the consequences of incompetence.
 
Matt said:
I disagree Chase. When a police officer is wrongly accused of brutality, it is their union who protects them. When a teacher is being head hunted to get a school board member's cousin a job, the union protects them. Who do you think fights to get firefighters top of the line protective gear in light of budget cuts? Their union.
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On the flip side, they may also protect cops who knowingly acted brutally, which has happened. Protecting bad teachers, which has happened. As for the cops, that is what dashboard cams are for. That is why police have recorders on them. The police want as many precautions as they can have so that they aren't sued. If a cop acts brutally, the city gets sued. In this day and age, rarely are cops fired for the wrong reasons. Does it still happen, I am sure. But they also have investigations into what happened as well.

Most places of business do not allow for the hiring of kin folk. That policy right there eliminates that entire scenario. My mother is an HR manager at a correctional facility. If I wanted to work out there, I couldn't. If the Warden's son wanted to work out there, he couldn't.

Public worker unions have their place. In the public sector, politics often trump what is fair and right. The employees need protections. I think the problem is, these protections have been taken too far. No one needs holiday pay on flag day or someone protecting them from the consequences of incompetence.
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Employees need protection, but the federal government has already established those protections. There is literally no use for a union today. They are like dial up internet. Dial up internet revolutionized the spread of information. Now we have high speed internet. There is no use for dial up. It served its purpose and brought about a higher level of quality. We aren't going to go back to dial up so when I hear people talk about us going back to the practices of 1920 in unions are made illegal, I laugh my ass off.

Unions are fine in the private sector. They regulate themselves. If they run their business into the ground, the business ceases to exist and they lose their job. If public sector unions run the government into the ground, the government raises taxes because the government cannot cease to exist. The private sector unions pay for the choices they make. We pay for the choices the public sector unions make. See the difference? You cannot deny why public sector unions came about. They didn't come about due to the necessity of worker's rights. They didn't come about to increase the quality of our state services. They came about because some politicians saw how they could be easily re-elected.

Is a union boss using dues without the consent of its members to pay for a re-election campaign for a politician that once hired sits across the table from that union boss to negotiate benefits not collusion? In the private sector, that doesn't work. Private sector unions aren't in the board room trying to get their guy elected to CEO so that they can make sweetheart deals.
 
Marx said:
UPDATE: OHIO GOVERNOR FACES 'YOU LIE' MOMENT DURING SPEECH
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...n-kasich-his-you-lie-moment-video.php?ref=fpb

The amount of arrogance Kasich has is unbelievable.
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All this union busting the Repubs are doing is going to bite them on the ass before it's over.

They will regret it when they are either recalled or voted out.

In a bad way this stuff is kinda good for the Dems, It shows how the repubs are nothing but corporate lackeys who cares nothing about the working middle class or the poor.
 
Yeap. Those politicians that are bought by unions care just as much about keeping their jobs as those politicians bought by corporations. Wait...sorry. I mean those politicians that unions spend millions to get elected that then cause taxes to be raised to pay for union deals care just as much about the rest of the middle class that don't work for the government. Ugh...sorry. I just can't seem to word this right.

I mean corporations don't employ people like unions do. I mean the oil and coal industry are only compromised of white collar *****e bags. Yeah! Why should politicians be giving them deals? Screw those guys.
 
The GOP going on going on a 'union busting' crusade does nothing to help their image problem.
 
Union is trying to force an official - Pete Constant - in San Jose to hire a $70k assistant (with benefits). Keep in mind the guy, Pete Constant DOES NOT WANT ONE. He thinks he can handle the job on his own.

The fight over Councilman Constant's missing secretary
Employees' union wants councilman to hire an assistant

At a time when San Jose faces more than a $100 million budget deficit and the prospect of hundreds of layoffs, San Jose City Councilman

Pete Constant is battling with a City Hall employees' union over whether he should be forced to hire an administrative assistant.
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Judge Kevin McKenney of Santa Clara County Superior Court recently ordered that the case be taken to a costly arbitration instead of the state's Public Employment Relations Board -- something both Constant and the city's attorneys had sought.

That decision pleased the city's 214-member Confidential Employees Organization, which contends the city was required to confer with the union before Constant decided to eliminate the position. The job -- which requires answering phones, scheduling appointments and making photocopies, among other duties -- pays about $70,000 a year.
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Again the union is forcing a 70k administrative assistant with benefits on a guy who DOESN'T WANT ONE.

Tax dollars well spent.
 
Besides the forcing...70k a year for a secretarial job before benefits? WTF hire me!?
 
Matt said:
The fact is, both sides are wrong. The unions have grown from an institution intended to protect workers from harsh and unfair conditions into political extensions of the Democratic Party with their own agenda and motivation that has little concern with protecting those they represent and more to do with maintaining the power of the higher ups of the union.

Meanwhile, politicians like Kasich and Walker are doing little more than grandstanding to get high profile attention while also kissing the collective asses of their base by going after easy targets. They have little to no interest in truly lowering budgets however, or they'd be targetting the pensions of state legislatures (which are far more generous than public worker pensions) and asking for a pay freeze or reduction for their own position.

A middle ground needs to be reached. The idea of no public employees being able to take part in collective bargaining is absurd. Teachers do need protection. You cannot hold a teacher who works in inner-city Cleveland who has a class where 45 % of the students show up high and another 45 % just doesn't show up, to the same standards as teachers in a posh suburb like Westlake (for those of you who do not know the area, Westlake is a Cleveland suburb where the average household income is $90,000 and only 2 % of the population is below the poverty line).

The fact is, parental and student involvement play too big of a role to set universal standards and that is why some form of collective bargaining is needed: to protect those who work in bad conditions (as unions were intended to do initially). Police, firefighters, etc all need unions for the same reason. To create protections from politicians like Walker and Kasich who are looking to boost their own career by putting them down.

Now, unions do need to make concessions. The union protections that keep the incompetent from being fired need to end. The union protections that give public workers double time pay on a holiday like flag day need to end. But the idea of taking away all negotiation rights is absurd. I think what we need to see happen is states need to make union membership voluntary (if you do not want to put your money into it, fine, but do not expect the union to protect you if needed) while also seeing a shift to more localized unions. Instead of national branches that have become powerful political entities, they should be local groups of workers negotiating on behalf of their coworkers.

Both sides are in the wrong and both sides need to start making concessions, IMO. Politicians need to stop targetting the middle class and instead trim their own fat. Meanwhile unions need to get back to what they were intended to do at conception, protect the workers, not enable them to perform poorly.
Click to expand...


Federal employees don't have collective bargaining, I DON'T HAVE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.....many states do not have collective bargaining for their public workers. They are just fine....
 
Superman said:
All this union busting the Repubs are doing is going to bite them on the ass before it's over.

They will regret it when they are either recalled or voted out.

In a bad way this stuff is kinda good for the Dems, It shows how the repubs are nothing but corporate lackeys who cares nothing about the working middle class or the poor.
Click to expand...

I don't think it is going to bite them in the ass. Until Walker went a little overboard in his efforts, public unions were pretty unpopular mostly due to teachers' unions. So while this didn't make the Republicans look good, when they go up against a group that is just as disliked, it really isn't going to bite you in the ass.
 
Nope....with millions of Americans out of work, you really think those millions are going to feel bad when a bunch of people with jobs act like a bunch of spoiled kids, going on strike while they are scraping by on unemployment??
 
Gotta admit, the unions are doing a hell of a anti-union PR job.
 
Oh snizzle...the news is going to be going crazy tomorrow. I will enjoy MSNBC tomorrow night.
 
Handsome Rob said:
Wisconsin GOP Strips Public Workers' Bargaining Rights

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-45-22

Interesting times, they are ahead!!
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:facepalm:

Well I hope to God the Republicans just ensured their loss of power in Wisconsin for 2012, but I'm not naive enough to think this will likely be the key issue of an election over 1.5 years away.

In any case I want to hear all the outcry from posters on this board who called Obama and the Democrats partisan, uncompromising, out-of-touch, etc. when passing the HCR law in 2010 to be outraged now. If Obama shoved "Obamacare" down your throats with "back room deals" and "procedural trickery," then Walker and the Republicans just kicked voters in the gut and then physically forced their mouth open with a vice as they stuffed this legislation in.

BTW I thought this was about the budget? They simply passed a Union busting bill? Well it seems Walker's "first domino" has fallen. Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
 
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