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Discussion: All Things Union

You know, if more children and their parents were held to a higher standard, schools would be that much better. I think that's the real problem here and not teachers and their salaries.

OMG I almost agree with you. I do agree with the first part. But in the states like say Wisconsin, the unions were bankrupting the districts and draining the states rainy day funds......it was time to pull it back. AND LOW AND BEHOLD the districts that chose to go with the governor's plan, ended up laying off far fewer teachers than those districts that did not.

Allowing teachers to choose rather to be in a union or not, the choice
of what political party their dues go to.....is a good start. In Wisconsin they still able to bargain as far as their salaries, it was simply the benefits that they simply have to pay a little more into. Same in New Jersey....hell New Jersey they blew a gasket having to pay 1% more into their insurance.

These are not HUGE.....Jesus, reality needs to slap the teacher's unions upside the head, they are out of control.

But I agree with what you said about the parent......but until district trustees grow a backbone it won't happen. Parents will only be held accountable for their child's attendance, not their behavior in school or study time outside of school.
 
Yeah, and that's almost a problem with our culture itself. People don't realize it, but modern technologies, media, and a consumer culture(among other things) have really led to a massive disinterest/disservice for education in the current generation of many students and their parents. For example, teachers spend tons of time confiscating cell phones. Or developmentally, children aren't developing speech skills because their parents are constantly texting and they don't pick up on any actual phone conversations where they can learn new words and speech skills. Plus, many parents don't see the value in education because they may only have a high school diploma themselves. However, it's also a problem that education is over-emphasized to children through No Child Left Behind and now students, parents, and Americans in general have forgotten that some people are better suited to jobs that aren't information and technology based.

It's true that education has been over-emphasized in the past few decades. All my life I was told anything is possible through education, education, education. Now we've got a generation where youth have gone heavily into debt to get an education, come out with multiple degrees, and find out that there are no jobs available.

Personally, I think the emphasis on education arose as a response to the flight of manufacturing jobs out of North America. Rather than changing the free trade policies that allowed companies to outsource production to cheap labour in Asia, politicians found it easier to just promote education. They could say that the jobs of the future would require skills in technology, and so we got the myth of the "information economy" which has yet to pass.

Manufacturing jobs will probably come back to the US, and hopefully many people can realize that students don't all have to learn pre-calculus in High School to make a decent living.

Manufacturing jobs will only come back to North America when labour is as cheap here as it is in Asia. That's the only way production will be competitive, and this is why globalization was so destructive. Corporations can now move production around the world to wherever labour is cheapest, in a global race to the bottom.

That's the economic plan of Democratic and Republican politicians alike: remake America into a cheap labour platform in the manner of India or China. Under the logic of globalized capitalism, there is no other way.

Jesus, reality needs to slap the teacher's unions upside the head, they are out of control.

I love it when people blame teachers' unions for everything that's wrong with education today. Over and over we're told about those powerful teachers' unions that are totally out of control. We're told that there's no money to pay for education anymore and the teachers' unions are to blame. How dare the people teaching our children expect things like good salaries, pensions and benefits?! :cmad:

We're told this at the same time that billionaire bankers and hedge fund managers have crashed the global economy and looted trillions of dollars in taxpayer money from the public treasury. I wonder...who's really out of control here? Who's really to blame for the fact that schools are being starved of funds? Because it ain't teachers.
 
Teacher's unions are a bit out of control in the United States. They're far too concerned about protecting bad teachers and refusal to accept accountability. Actually I would say that teacher's unions are the primary (if not sole) reason why unions have a poor image in the United States.
 
I love it when people blame teachers' unions for everything that's wrong with education today. Over and over we're told about those powerful teachers' unions that are totally out of control. We're told that there's no money to pay for education anymore and the teachers' unions are to blame. How dare the people teaching our children expect things like good salaries, pensions and benefits?! :cmad:

We're told this at the same time that billionaire bankers and hedge fund managers have crashed the global economy and looted trillions of dollars in taxpayer money from the public treasury. I wonder...who's really out of control here? Who's really to blame for the fact that schools are being starved of funds? Because it ain't teachers.
What do billionaire bankers and hedge fund managers have to do with teacher's unions? Nothing...don't use straw men.

All public sector unions drain tax payer moneys, stiffle growth, and decrease productivity. We also have schools, particularly in Southern states, that have a lot of illegal immigrants and children whose second language is English. We also have bloated administration costs that drain a ton of money before it even gets to the classrooms. All of those things are easily fixed. Fire bad teachers, reward good teachers, have separate classrooms for children that cannot speak English and are taught English more heavily, cut down the administrative costs, and lastly...do like China and have schools teach trades to kids that won't seek college. Instead of beating off in shop class, work on diesel engines.
 
It's true that education has been over-emphasized in the past few decades. All my life I was told anything is possible through education, education, education. Now we've got a generation where youth have gone heavily into debt to get an education, come out with multiple degrees, and find out that there are no jobs available.

Personally, I think the emphasis on education arose as a response to the flight of manufacturing jobs out of North America. Rather than changing the free trade policies that allowed companies to outsource production to cheap labour in Asia, politicians found it easier to just promote education. They could say that the jobs of the future would require skills in technology, and so we got the myth of the "information economy" which has yet to pass.



Manufacturing jobs will only come back to North America when labour is as cheap here as it is in Asia. That's the only way production will be competitive, and this is why globalization was so destructive. Corporations can now move production around the world to wherever labour is cheapest, in a global race to the bottom.

That's the economic plan of Democratic and Republican politicians alike: remake America into a cheap labour platform in the manner of India or China. Under the logic of globalized capitalism, there is no other way.



I love it when people blame teachers' unions for everything that's wrong with education today. Over and over we're told about those powerful teachers' unions that are totally out of control. We're told that there's no money to pay for education anymore and the teachers' unions are to blame. How dare the people teaching our children expect things like good salaries, pensions and benefits?! :cmad:

We're told this at the same time that billionaire bankers and hedge fund managers have crashed the global economy and looted trillions of dollars in taxpayer money from the public treasury. I wonder...who's really out of control here? Who's really to blame for the fact that schools are being starved of funds? Because it ain't teachers.

Yeah, it is true that manufacturing is cheaper in Asia, but here in America the manufacturing sector just grew by 2%, which is a relatively small number, but progress nonetheless. The sector will grow, but I'm sure many jobs overseas will remain.

And as for the teacher's unions, pay and benefits is not so much the arguments. Teachers obviously are massively under compensated, but the issue of almost automatic tenure(2-3 yrs) as opposed to academic tenure for college professors, which is a grueling process, has been debated. It's thought that once teachers gain tenure but receive only a slight income over time(maybe $10,000 over 15 years), teachers will underperform. I think that's true in some cases, having been educated in public school. Many think that doing away with tenure but making large bonuses or salary increases upon higher student performance is a good alternative to tenure, which is being done away with nonetheless. So I guess pay is an issue, but the teachers in the Unions would rather take the same salary and have tenure than vice versa.

As for teachers and education in Canada, I don't know but I'm sure it's good. However, there are massive problems with public education in the U.S. I went to public school, and my parents are both teachers. I spent 4 years in the military, and now that I'm back and going to college I just see that so many students are massively underprepared for college due to an inadequate public education. There are always exceptions and public schools that can be great, and as I mentioned kids have bad influences these days, but the system needs some type of reform and the answer won't be simple.
 
What do billionaire bankers and hedge fund managers have to do with teacher's unions? Nothing...don't use straw men.

Let me explain for your benefit.

Politicians are cutting funding for education because they claim there's no money in government coffers. At the same time, in the last few years the federal government has spent up to $23 trillion on bailouts to the big banks. Tell me again how these two things aren't related?

They need an easy scapegoat for why schools have to make cuts and the teachers' unions fit the bill.

All public sector unions drain tax payer moneys, stiffle growth, and decrease productivity.

Leave aside the fact that the amount of taxpayer money spent on public employees is microscopic compared to the amount spent on the bloated military-industrial complex or bailouts to Wall Street.

We're talking about public education. Teaching children is a public service, it's not a business. But like the corporate media and politicians, you talk about it like it's a business. What do you mean by "growth"? What does that have to do with schools? There should be as much education as there are children that require it. This isn't like the economy where growth can be seen as a good in and of itself.

Increasing productivity is a good thing, but not by paying teachers less, increasing stress levels and putting them under more pressure to get higher results on standardized tests. That doesn't teach creativity or critical thinking; rather, it's a great way to "teach to the test" and turn kids into mindless drones.

The reason teachers' unions are being targeted is because public sector unions are one of the last obstacles remaining in the corporate war on collective bargaining. Private sector unions are weaker now than they've been for decades, whereas public sector unions are the last stronghold of organized labor.

We also have schools, particularly in Southern states, that have a lot of illegal immigrants and children whose second language is English. We also have bloated administration costs that drain a ton of money before it even gets to the classrooms. All of those things are easily fixed. Fire bad teachers, reward good teachers, have separate classrooms for children that cannot speak English and are taught English more heavily, cut down the administrative costs...

How do you cut down on administrative costs? Sounds great, but where do you make those cuts? It's not as easy as just cutting red tape. This is an excuse used to justify general cuts to education funding due to austerity policies.

Also, wouldn't having separate classes for kids who speak English and those who don't cost more? Again, it's a good idea, but it would cost money. That money has to come from somewhere, so even if you cut administrative costs, that money goes straight to funding more classrooms using your idea. So we're right back at square one.

The problem is that we're looking at this through the logic of our current economic system, where the only choice we have is what to cut. Under a system that distributed resources based on human need rather than what turns a profit, this would not be a problem.

One another thing: I'm sick of the talking point we hear that the problems in education today can be fixed by firing "bad teachers". This is an idea we're constantly bombarded with in our culture, through the media and movies like Bad Teacher and Waiting for Superman. But who determines what a bad teacher is? That's a case-by-case occurrence; it is not a systemic, institutional issue.

You can't just paint in broad strokes and say that the problem in education is "bad teachers". That's like saying the problem in American politics today is "bad politicians", that the problem in the economy is "bad businessmen" or that the existence of terrorism is due to the fact that there are "bad people" out there. It's a gross oversimplification that blames problems on individuals rather than institutional faults in the system as a whole.

and lastly...do like China and have schools teach trades to kids that won't seek college. Instead of beating off in shop class, work on diesel engines.

This actually isn't such a bad idea.
 
If giving more money to education funding = a better education, then tell me why the more we spend the dumber our kids get? Look at this graph...in 2006 according to you our kids should have been the smartest they ever have been.

Federal_Spending_Education.jpg


Therefore, the government spending trillions on bailouts has nothing to do with the quality of our kid's education. It has to do with what I highlighted above. It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. Throwing money at it doesn't improve quality.
 
If giving more money to education funding = a better education, then tell me why the more we spend the dumber our kids get? Look at this graph...in 2006 according to you our kids should have been the smartest they ever have been.

Federal_Spending_Education.jpg

That's a chart of total education funding. The population of the United States is higher today than it was in 1962 - over 300 million, rather than 185 million people. So of course education costs are going to go up as a whole, even if there's less money being spent per student.

Also, did you notice the very end of your graph? Education spending took a massive dive a few years ago as the recession started to hit. Whatever your preconceived notions, the reality is that federal funding for education is undergoing massive cuts. This is not going to improve the problem, it's going to make it much worse.

Therefore, the government spending trillions on bailouts has nothing to do with the quality of our kid's education. It has to do with what I highlighted above. It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. Throwing money at it doesn't improve quality.

Have you ever noticed that this notion of "throwing money at the problem" mostly comes up when we're talking about education? Nobody talks about "throwing money around" in business; they call it investing or financing. In government, too, federal programs for things like education allocate money in very specific ways.

A good quote I found about the "throwing money" talking point:

In every other venture I can think of, money can be used to create change and to achieve goals. Is it possible that I've discovered an exception to the principles of economics? Is education immune to money? It would be nice if that were true -- a Nobel Prize in economics would look great on my resume. Sadly, I think I've merely stumbled upon a tired and baseless talking point.

What would happen if we really did throw money at the serious shortcomings within the education system? The entire enterprise of public education is so shamefully underfunded, it would be hard to find an area where more funding wouldn't yield a positive return on the investment.
However much money schools received in the past, today that funding is being cut every way possible, and I don't really see how that's going to improve the poor standard of American education today.

You say money won't solve the problem. Okay, let's pretend that the quality of American education wouldn't improve at all if schools suddenly received half the money allocated to the Pentagon budget. It's hard, but I'll pretend.

What will solve the problem? Pretty much the only solutions you've offered involve cutting administrative costs (which will not nearly as much difference as you think it will), increasing the number of classes to accommodate students who don't speak English (which requires - surprise! - more money), and firing bad teachers (under whose authority?).

These will not solve the problem of poor quality education. Schools need more resources and you need money to pay for those resources.
 
I love it when people blame teachers' unions for everything that's wrong with education today. Over and over we're told about those powerful teachers' unions that are totally out of control. We're told that there's no money to pay for education anymore and the teachers' unions are to blame. How dare the people teaching our children expect things like good salaries, pensions and benefits?! :cmad:

Um, where did I say ANYTHING about there is no money to pay for education anymore and teachers' unions are to blame?

Anyone that knows me on here, knows that I am very proud of being an educator, and I work my ass off doing my job. I have never said that the lack of money in education is because of teacher's unions. Teacher's unions and the unbelievable amount of "give me" that they desire IS a part of the state's inability to balance their budget in districts and states where the Teacher's Unions are strong. I happen to work in a non-union state, and I am a proud member of a non-union organization that will fight for my rights as strongly as any teachers union. BUT, I do not expect my state to pay me what I am making now as my retirement when I haven't paid in anywhere near that amount, and they (teachers in union states) pay in less than I do into their own retirement.....AND pay close to 95% of my medical insurance? seriously, and then they ***** that they now have to pay 2% more into it? Seriously....I pay much more into my medical insurance, I'm happy with my insurance and I should pay into what I'm using. I don't expect ANYONE to do that for me, especially not my government. I pay into an Ovation account, I pay into a 403b and I pay into my retirement fund.....I will live quite comfortably on that once I retire, I certainly don't think my state should pay for my medical care at the same rate they did when I was actually doing my job....AND....I don't expect my state to pay anymore than it should. I can pay my own way thank you. I can also pay my own medical insurance. NOW.......as I brought up Wisconsin as my example. Collective bargaining in the area of entitlements was taken away....NOT the collective bargaining in salary. Do I think teachers should make more? Hell yes I do......BUT, do I think that bad teachers should be making as much as I do or more? Hell no.........BUT UNIONS ARE THE REASON, THEY ARE.....THAT IS FACT......THEY ARE THE REASON that bad teachers continue to have jobs. F.A.C.T. that has nothing to do with entitlements WHICH IS....what is hurting states and districts, that is also FACT.....

YES, I should make more money....
NO, the state should not pay anywhere near in entitlements that union states are having to pay teachers.....pay us the salary we deserve, and we can live quite well without the government's help thank you. So, you want teachers in union states and in non-union states to make more? Then get rid of the crappy teachers that unions are fighting to keep in, make teachers pay their "fair" share, and guess what? the salaries will go up, and we can then choose for ourselves, how we spend our money. :yay:

Also, we do not need to put more money into education, we simply need to get rid of bad teachers and hire solid, well trained, self sufficient teachers.....not whiners. You get rid of those, you go to a year around schooling, not the Agrarian calendar of the 1800s that we are still on, and go to 220 days each year rather than 180. You do those things, get rid of the crappy teachers, you will see our ranking in the world, GO UP.
 
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That's a chart of total education funding. The population of the United States is higher today than it was in 1962 - over 300 million, rather than 185 million people.
Look at the green arrow...it's the percentage of the federal budget. It rises steadily as population does...until it spikes crazily in 2002. That would mean that the population should have risen with the spending. It didn't. In 2006 it spiked at the highest spent per student in the country. That would mean that from 2002-2008 we should have churned out the smartest kids we ever have because we were spending the most per student during that time....if more money spent = greater education. It doesn't. If we scale back the amount spent to the average percentage population increase, we should be between $50-$60 billion a year spent on education. Instead, we are currently at $90 billion and our kids are the dumbest they ever have been and can't hold a flame to most other rich countries. Therefore, spending more money on education will not increase the quality. We need to cut down waste

Then again are you shocked that the public school system is bloated and broken when it's run by a government that cannot run anything efficiently?
 
The real problem with education in the US is something that can't be fixed easily. It is a cultural problem and nothing related to the actual system so no matter how much money you throw at the problem it isn't going to make a difference. For some reason in the US, especially in the poorer regions, education is looked down upon at best or is evil at worst. You don't see this anywhere near the same scale in the rest of the first world. So no matter how much money you throw at the problem or how good your teachers are, there is nothing that can be done if people simply don't want to learn.
 
OMG I almost agree with you. I do agree with the first part. But in the states like say Wisconsin, the unions were bankrupting the districts and draining the states rainy day funds......it was time to pull it back. AND LOW AND BEHOLD the districts that chose to go with the governor's plan, ended up laying off far fewer teachers than those districts that did not.

Allowing teachers to choose rather to be in a union or not, the choice
of what political party their dues go to.....is a good start. In Wisconsin they still able to bargain as far as their salaries, it was simply the benefits that they simply have to pay a little more into. Same in New Jersey....hell New Jersey they blew a gasket having to pay 1% more into their insurance.

These are not HUGE.....Jesus, reality needs to slap the teacher's unions upside the head, they are out of control.

But I agree with what you said about the parent......but until district trustees grow a backbone it won't happen. Parents will only be held accountable for their child's attendance, not their behavior in school or study time outside of school.

If you think about it, those states you claim are like Wisconsin all saw a loss in revenue after they cut the source of it. These teachers are in essence taking less pay in exchange for benefits (like pensions) that they will get in the future. Because they are contractual agreements, these state governments are obligated to honor them. Cutting your source of revenue and then saying that you are broke is not an excuse to get out of that commitment. Secondly, making it law to make it optional for a person to join a union is akin to making it optional for citizens to pay taxes. That is a recipe for disaster for the union and the right to collectively bargain. You know, if you still have the right to collectively bargain for your salaries and your employer cuts your benefits, you have no choice but to ask for more pay to compensate for the extra burden. In the end, states like Wisconsin will find that out pretty fast.
 
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I like how you just compared unions to taxes.
 
If giving more money to education funding = a better education, then tell me why the more we spend the dumber our kids get? Look at this graph...in 2006 according to you our kids should have been the smartest they ever have been.

Federal_Spending_Education.jpg


Therefore, the government spending trillions on bailouts has nothing to do with the quality of our kid's education. It has to do with what I highlighted above. It's not about the quantity, it's about the quality. Throwing money at it doesn't improve quality.

You should cite where you got that chart from.

Guy, the way I understand it, there are more than 99,000 schools across the country. If you take $100 billion and divide it by 99,000 you get about 1 million per school. It takes more that $1 million to operate a school for a year. My old alma mater (a private high school) cost more than $4 million alone to run. You thin $100 billion is too much? That being said, with the money that is being spent on education, the U.S. gets a 99% literacy rate.
 
I got it from the US Government.

You should cite where you got those numbers from...guy.
 
I got it from the US Government.

You should cite where you got those numbers from...guy.

The U.S. Department of Education (and my old high school) as well as the CIA World Factbook.
 
If you think about it, those states you claim are like Wisconsin all saw a loss in revenue after they cut the source of it. These teachers are in essence taking less pay in exchange for benefits (like pensions) that they will get in the future. Because they are contractual agreements, these state governments are obligated to honor them. Cutting your source of revenue and then saying that you are broke is not an excuse to get out of that commitment. Secondly, making it law to make it optional for a person to join a union is akin to making it optional for citizens to pay taxes. That is a recipe for disaster for the union and the right to collectively bargain. You know, if you still have the right to collectively bargain for your salaries and your employer cuts your benefits, you have no choice but to ask for more pay to compensate for the extra burden. In the end, states like Wisconsin will find that out pretty fast.

That is laughable....
 
That is laughable....

Why wouldn't someone ask for more money to pay for his health care and pension if he wasn't already getting compensated for it? A business would certainly do that if it cost him more to produce a product. Do you think the laborer is stupid or something?
 
Why wouldn't someone ask for more money to pay for his health care and pension if he wasn't already getting compensated for it? A business would certainly do that if it cost him more to produce a product. Do you think the laborer is stupid or something?

Because what the government is asking these teachers to pay is not that much more, in most cases barely 1% more....they usually get at least a 3% raise each year. That raise may be more now that the state governments are not having to pay so much for teacher entitlements that are far, far more than most get in the private sector, and non-union states and we are far better for it, far more self-reliant.

It is very simple dnno1.....it is a self-reliant vs. entitlement mentality.
 
The U.S. Department of Education (and my old high school) as well as the CIA World Factbook.
You are also forgetting local and state taxes that schools get. That is just from federal funding. So each of the 99,000 schools get a million bucks from the federal government and whatever amount from state and local taxes. How did we ever get by 15 years ago when the fed was spending nearly 50% less?
 
Because what the government is asking these teachers to pay is not that much more, in most cases barely 1% more....they usually get at least a 3% raise each year. That raise may be more now that the state governments are not having to pay so much for teacher entitlements that are far, far more than most get in the private sector, and non-union states and we are far better for it, far more self-reliant.

It is very simple dnno1.....it is a self-reliant vs. entitlement mentality.

How does the rest of the working world get by off of our awful 401k and IRAs? If only we all could rely on the tax payer! Lets all be public union workers!
 
Because what the government is asking these teachers to pay is not that much more, in most cases barely 1% more....they usually get at least a 3% raise each year. That raise may be more now that the state governments are not having to pay so much for teacher entitlements that are far, far more than most get in the private sector, and non-union states and we are far better for it, far more self-reliant.

It is very simple dnno1.....it is a self-reliant vs. entitlement mentality.

No, it's not that simple. 3% is just barely making the cost of living increase each year. You make them have to pay the 1% towards their pension and eventually then can't make ends meet at home. Naturally they would want to go back to their employer and ask for a larger pay increase to compensate. Since they have made it optional for non-public safety employees to be in a union some will opt not to pay the union dues to make up the 1%, which only serves to weaken the union and the negotiating leverage they have with management. There is nothing wrong with an entitlement mentality when it is contractually agreed upon by both parties. Changing a law to get out of a contract is fundamentally wrong and bordering being unconstitutional.
 
No, it's not that simple. 3% is just barely making the cost of living increase each year. You make them have to pay the 1% towards their pension and eventually then can't make ends meet at home. Naturally they would want to go back to their employer and ask for a larger pay increase to compensate. Since they have made it optional for non-public safety employees to be in a union some will opt not to pay the union dues to make up the 1%, which only serves to weaken the union and the negotiating leverage they have with management. There is nothing wrong with an entitlement mentality when it is contractually agreed upon by both parties. Changing a law to get out of a contract is fundamentally wrong and bordering being unconstitutional.

To you there is no problem with an entitlement mentality.....of course not. THE PROBLEM IS Dnno, that billions are going out in retirement. Teachers, lets say in New York, can make upwards of 110,000 per year, and YES, the cost of living there is high....but they are not paying enough into their retirement to continue to pay them that kind of salary....YET....once they retire, many of the teachers there are making just that.....THAT CANNOT CONTINUE. Not when they are living far past their retirement age. IT DOES NOT COMPUTE Dnno. You are entitled to what you pay in.....you are entitled to what you earn. You are not entitled to what I earn....

Dnno, you want to see what happens to an "entitlement mentality" check out Greece Dnno.....how is that working them? How is it working for Italy?....how is it working for Spain?....for France? I have a teacher that is from France.....he saw the writing on the wall a long time ago, if you ask him? The entitlement mentality does not work. Oh, BTW, that was in their contract as well......in Greece, the contract is null and void. IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE....you are a taker from age 0 -- about 20. Then you are a giver (into a system that you are supposed to be putting in WHAT YOU WILL USE WHEN YOU RETIRE, but that isn't happening today, you are putting in to pay for those that are ALREADY RETIRED....why? because it is a ****ed up system) you are then a giver from age 20 to (IF YOU ARE A TEACHER, 50 - 55 years old) then you can retire, and today will probably live for another 20 to 30 years on average. YET THE RETIREMENT PROGRAM THAT SOCIAL SECURITY IS ON and most Teacher Retirement Programs is for a retirement on average of 10 to 15 years. DNNO, it does not work, it has to be changed......and that is what is happening. You may not like it, and cry....cry.....cry.....but we are headed for Greece with your mentality. In your world, you want to be a taker from age 0 - 20 and age 55 - 85, and only give as SMALL AMOUNT AS YOU CAN for 35 years, and TAKE for 50 + It doesn't work that way.
 
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How does the rest of the working world get by off of our awful 401k and IRAs? If only we all could rely on the tax payer! Lets all be public union workers!

We actually work Chase to keep our jobs, we actually do the job, deserve the raises, and put back enough money for ourselves, we don't wait for government to do it, and then squat in the "favelas of America" and ***** when we don't have a job and blame everyone else.....We believe that we know what is best for "us", not government.

Let me be clear with all of this, I'm not slamming all unions. There are some unions out there in the manufacturing industry that are doing a good job. And most government workers do not get to collective bargain when it comes to their benefits, and they are doing fine. I'm just saying that teacher's unions around the country really need to be investigated.....and the teachers that they are fighting to keep, but should lose their job because they are ineffective........really need to be cleaned out.

Teachers unions need to have a major "house cleaning".....IMO those are the most corrupt unions on the planet.
 
To you there is no problem with an entitlement mentality.....of course not. THE PROBLEM IS Dnno, that billions are going out in retirement. Teachers, lets say in New York, can make upwards of 110,000 per year, and YES, the cost of living there is high....but they are not paying enough into their retirement to continue to pay them that kind of salary....YET....once they retire, many of the teachers there are making just that.....THAT CANNOT CONTINUE. Not when they are living far past their retirement age. IT DOES NOT COMPUTE Dnno. You are entitled to what you pay in.....you are entitled to what you earn. You are not entitled to what I earn....

I have no problem with entitlements so long as they were agreed to by both parties. That is what a contract is all about. Through collective bargaining (in this case) the state is obligated to pay into the state employees salaries (at least until their business agreement expires). In other cases, (like medicare or social security) the government has made a social contract with the public (via legislation) to pay out a benefit at a specified time under certain conditions so long as a citizen pays for the agreed upon share of the benefit (through his taxes). The government has an obligation to come through on its part of the bargain just as much as the other party (the employee or the citizen) does. Sure billions are going out in retirement benefits, but this is what the state agreed to. To renege on that agreement would be a breech of contract, which even a government should not be immune to. You don't do something as stupid as cut taxes when you have financial obligations to meet. You find some way to raise revenue to meet your commitments or don't make the commitment in the first place.

Dnno, you want to see what happens to an "entitlement mentality" check out Greece Dnno.....how is that working them? How is it working for Italy?....how is it working for Spain?....for France? I have a teacher that is from France.....he saw the writing on the wall a long time ago, if you ask him? The entitlement mentality does not work. Oh, BTW, that was in their contract as well......in Greece, the contract is null and void. IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE....you are a taker from age 0 -- about 20. Then you are a giver (into a system that you are supposed to be putting in WHAT YOU WILL USE WHEN YOU RETIRE, but that isn't happening today, you are putting in to pay for those that are ALREADY RETIRED....why? because it is a ****ed up system) you are then a giver from age 20 to (IF YOU ARE A TEACHER, 50 - 55 years old) then you can retire, and today will probably live for another 20 to 30 years on average. YET THE RETIREMENT PROGRAM THAT SOCIAL SECURITY IS ON and most Teacher Retirement Programs is for a retirement on average of 10 to 15 years. DNNO, it does not work, it has to be changed......and that is what is happening. You may not like it, and cry....cry.....cry.....but we are headed for Greece with your mentality. In your world, you want to be a taker from age 0 - 20 and age 55 - 85, and only give as SMALL AMOUNT AS YOU CAN for 35 years, and TAKE for 50 + It doesn't work that way.

These countries went into crisis not because of social programs or entitlements. They got in trouble because of the financial crisis, which affected markets all over the world. In the case of Greece, there was a lot of corruption and a weak system of collecting taxes. This was the crux of their downfall. Italy was similar in that there was corruption in that country although they also had a big problem raising revenue to pay their debts, which was mostly incurred from money borrowed for manufacturing (of cars, clothing, and food). These countries also had no effective way to inflate their currency (since they were all on the Euro) to get out of their debt problems. Please don't blame all the worlds problems on social programs because that's the reason why the got into the mess that they are in. And you want to know something? They will get out of that mess soon enough with their social programs intact.
 

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