Discussion: Gay Rights III

[lou2099]

I'm not following you here... explain how an outed gay officer/administrator can be reassigned? I thought they just discharged them when they are outed?

Because dont ask don't tell is in place, if it's repealed, things will change and not necessarily for the better for the gay military community. Face it, President Clinton had the right idea.

 

[BlackLantern]

I'm not following you here... explain how an outed gay officer/administrator can be reassigned? I thought they just discharged them when they are outed?

any military officer can be reassigned for needs of the service....just because you're in admin just means that is your duty post for that given time

 

[Mystirious]

Because dont ask don't tell is in place, if it's repealed, things will change and not necessarily for the better for the gay military community. Face it, President Clinton had the right idea.

No, he didn't. DADT is a horrible and prejudiced idea.

Gay soldiers have been allowed to serve openly for many years here in the UK with no negative consequences. There is no valid reason why LGBT individuals should not be allowed to serve openly in the armed forces in America as well.

For many it's a wish.

I'm sure it's something you wish would happen, to judge from your posts in this thread so far. But like most wishes, it is not one that will be granted.

'Don't ask don't tell' works better for gay soldiers. Why? Because if it is repealed, guess who are gonna be on the front lines in combat.

It didn't happen here in the UK.

So unless you are saying that Americans are gentically and intellectually inferior to the English and are naturally murderous and prejudiced, I fail to see why you think that if gay soldiers are allowed to serve openly in the United States millitary it will result in them being used as cannon fodder.

There is no logical basis for you opinion and nothing to suggest that the situation you think would occur will arise if DADT is repealed.

 

[BlackLantern]

So unless you are saying that Americans are gentically and intellectually inferior to the English and are naturally murderous and prejudiced, I fail to see why you think that if gay soldiers are allowed to serve openly in the United States millitary it will result in them being used as cannon fodder.

There is no logical basis for you opinion and nothing to suggest that the situation you think would occur will arise if DADT is repealed.

Im thinking our history has shown that to be very much the case, I served this countrys military proudly but there are some very dark aspects of it that I do not like, but I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to be next

 

[Mystirious]

I have a rather more optimistic view of American's in general and the American millitary. I have no doubt there are some in the millitary who are homophobic and generally prejudiced and unpleaseant. But I would hope such individuals are in the minority.

And if they are not, then something must be done. Prejudice has no place in the work place. Especially in the millitary, where lives are at stake.

 

[Nivek]

Because dont ask don't tell is in place, if it's repealed, things will change and not necessarily for the better for the gay military community. Face it, President Clinton had the right idea.

Again, explain how officers could be reassigned NOW. That was my confusion in your statement.

My Dad was in the Military & Gay before don't ask don't tell, and he had to stay Closeted because once you were outed, just like now, you got booted. Except then (I believe) you may get jail time. I don't understand it being repealed and allowing the openly Gay to serve would be an issue. The regressive bigots who would be thrown in the brig for doing anything to a fellow openly gay soldier, no different than when blacks & hispanics were integrated.

 

[BlackLantern]

I have a rather more optimistic view of American's in general and the American millitary. I have no doubt there are some in the millitary who are homophobic and generally prejudiced and unpleaseant. But I would hope such individuals are in the minority.

and those are usually the people with stars on their shoulders that make the decisions

And if they are not, then something must be done. Prejudice has no place in the work place. Especially in the millitary, where lives are at stake.

good luck proving it....I don't you grasp how easy it is to railroad someone these days...the regulations designed to help and protect the working person can just as easily be used as loopholes to hurt them

 

[Mystirious]

Again, explain how officers could be reassigned NOW. That was my confusion in your statement.

My Dad was in the Military & Gay before don't ask don't tell, and he had to stay Closeted because once you were outed, just like now, you got booted. Except then (I believe) you may get jail time. I don't understand it being repealed and allowing the openly Gay to serve would be an issue. The regressive bigots who would be thrown in the brig for doing anything to a fellow openly gay soldier, no different than when blacks & hispanics were integrated.

Quite. I'm sure there will be difficulties at the start when DADT is repealed, but just because something is difficult does not mean something isn't worth doing

 

[BlackLantern]

Quite. I'm sure there will be difficulties at the start when DADT is repealed, but just because something is difficult does not mean something isn't worth doing

so are you saying the odd death/disapperance/beating is worth it in the long run??

 

[Marx]

I tend to agree with Mystirious - just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. The transition to allow blacks and women in the military wasn't exactly a smooth transition either, but it was done. (And our armed forces are better because of their inclusion.)

 

[BlackLantern]

I fully agree....but there are a few black soldiers/sailors/marines who never made it home simply because people can't move forward

if the gay community is certainly willing to sacrifice a few people for a long term benefit, then do it

 

[Mystirious]

so are you saying the odd death/disapperance/beating is worth it in the long run??

Would you think me a monster if I said yes?

Do not misunderstand me. I hope with all my heart that no LGBT soldier will suffer if DADT is repealed. I hope there will be no beatings, deaths or "Dissapearances".

But I do not believe that the possibility of such things occuring is a reason not to repeal DADT. There were hate crimes when the armed forces were racially integrated. And when interracial marriage was legalised. It does not mean those things should not have been done.

And in the same way, DADT should be repealed even if it will cause some problems due to the intolerant and hateful members of the millitary

 

[BlackLantern]

Would you think me a monster if I said yes?

not at all, I'd call you a realist

Do not misunderstand me. I hope with all my heart that no LGBT soldier will suffer if DADT is repealed. I hope there will be no beatings, deaths or "Dissapearances".

But I do not believe that the possibility of such things occuring is a reason not to repeal DADT. There were hate crimes when the armed forces were racially integrated. And when interracial marriage was legalised. It does not mean those things should not have been done.

And in the same way, DADT should be repealed even if it will cause some problems due to the intolerant and hateful members of the millitary

I agree fully

 

[Nivek]

so are you saying the odd death/disapperance/beating is worth it in the long run??

Well, one would hope the families wouldn't let something like a suspicious death just slide. The military is accountable, people just have to know they have to push to get stuff done. Look at the Tillman family.

 

[Mystirious]

Indeed. The millitary are not a law unto themselves and I would hope that should there be any deaths or assaults of LGBT soldiers then the families and friends will kick up as big a fuss as possible and demand justice.

In that way, fear of future scandals will lead to the millitary working toward cracking down on intolerance and bigotry within the ranks.

 

[kytrigger]

I'm really not understanding this whole "gay people will be put on the front line as cannon fodder" thinking.

One thing of note is that there is no real front line anymore. That is the basic nature of counter-insurgency. Anyone who leaves a FOB/COP/Base is essentially on the front line.

Another major point is that unlike Vietnam and WWII, this is still a completely voluntary war. Back then people were drafted and everyone was needs of the military, which usually meant Infantry, but now you choose your job. Even officers get to pick their top job choices and usually get that job skill. So while you do have a number of people pulling different duties such as "gurad duty" or "tower duty" you will almost never see a patrol convoy leaving the wire without it being mainly comprised of combat arms personnel. No commander will put a bunch of openly gay soldiers into a single convoy made up of only Intel, JAG, and Dental just because they are a bigot.

Like BlackLantern said, there will likely be some beatings, hazings, and even deaths of gays in teh military, but not anything as overt as sending out a convoy of only gay people into a minefield. It will be from one or two bigots taking matter into their own idiotic hands.

 

[Mystirious]

Exactly. The world has changed since Vietnam an WW2. Even if it has not changed as much as we would like it to have

 

[Pink Ranger]

Quite a few of the posters here seem to know what they're talking about, so I guess my fears about the negative effects of repealing DADT are allayed.

Will there be the (I hope) rare death or attempted murder in the early stages of DADT repeal? Probably. Then again, every major rights initiative has brought with it that risk and cost. In the first official same-sex marriage in Canada, the pastor wore a bullet-proof vest.

 

[Mystirious]

Sadly, progress rarely comes without a price. Just look at Martin Luthor King and Harvey Milk. Both casualties in the struggle to make the world a more tolerant place.

But if you give up just because the hateful and prjeudiced indiiduals out there commit hate crimes then you're givng them the victory. And worse you're dishonouring everything that others worked so hard to achieve. If the Civil Rights movement had just up and quit after MLK was murdered then where would we be?

 

[BlackLantern]

Id be cleaning someones house or bagging groceries or some other menial task

 

[Marx]

US ALLIES SAY MILITARY INTEGRATION OF GAYS WAS 'NONISSUE'
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/us.allies.military.gays/index.html?hpt=C1


...imagine that.

 

[Schlosser85]

Shocking!

 

[Mystirious]

US ALLIES SAY MILITARY INTEGRATION OF GAYS WAS 'NONISSUE'
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/us.allies.military.gays/index.html?hpt=C1


...imagine that.

It's so surprising isn't it?

 

[BlackLantern]

we Americans are *******s...the Dutch are excessively polite....

I still have very little faith that it will be a "smooth transition", just based on things I saw when I served

 

[BlackLantern]

and in "why Africa is f'd up" news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10130240.stm

Malawi gay couple sentenced to 14 years in jail