Discussion: Gay Rights III

[Mystirious]

I don't see how this family is being prejudiced. They aren't trying to get the money for themselves, they're trying to make sure that all of it goes to his children.

I do not think that his family is prejudiced.

Not only that, but they are following their son's last wishes. The son didn't want to be with her anymore because she lied to him about being biologically a man (even if she is mentally and now physically a woman, she is still biologically a man). Their marriage was over anyways, but the divorce was not finalized and their son would not want her to have any of his money anyways. The fact that she is attempting to stake a claim to this money is pathetic.

In my opinion, a transgendered person should tell their significant other that they are a transgendered person before they get married.

I agree that she should have told her husband that she had been born biologically male before they were married.

Her behaviour was appaling. But I do think that she has a legal claim to some of the benefits.

I think that some of his benefits should go to his family and children as well.

I never said she was a fraud. BUT, IF she married this man, and did not tell him of her history and the sex change, then THAT IS FRAUD in that case. In the eyes of the law that would be fraud. Just like the religious case that is being discussed.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore, because you are truly biased in this and not thinking clearly. The law, is the law.

The reason I brought up the "fraud" was because of her earlier criminal history in that area.

I truly believe you would rather have a world of people just like you, rather than try and see other opinions and views.

The fact that you want her to have the majority of the money rather than his two children is pathetic and very sad.

My opinion is that the woman is a woman and that as his legally wedded wife she has a lawful claim to those benefits.

You do not like this woman because she has commited crimes in the past and was not completely honest with her husband. I do not like that about her either. I agree with you that she has acted wrongly.

But I think that she has a legal right to those benefits. And she should not be denied them just because she was born with a male body

What I want or do not want is irrelevant. Legally she has a right to those profits. I am just attempting to review the situation logicall.

The emotional reaction is to gve all the benefits to the mans children because his wife does not seem like a very nice woman. But I think legally she has a greater right to the benefits

 

[Kelly]

He was in the process of a divorce....

 

[Mystirious]

He was in the process of a divorce....

That changes the case

 

[hippie_hunter]

Id only glanced over what was going on...so were they separated or in the process of being divorced??

They were separated and he wanted a divorce. If he were still alive divorce proceedings would have occurred.

Although, you can certainly make a strong case for an annulment.

 

[Marx]

I don't see how this family is being prejudiced. They aren't trying to get the money for themselves, they're trying to make sure that all of it goes to his children.

Not only that, but they are following their son's last wishes. The son didn't want to be with her anymore because she lied to him about being biologically a man (even if she is mentally and now physically a woman, she is still biologically a man). Their marriage was over anyways, but the divorce was not finalized and their son would not want her to have any of his money anyways. The fact that she is attempting to stake a claim to this money is pathetic.

In my opinion, a transgendered person should tell their significant other that they are a transgendered person before they get married.

I completely agree.

My opinion is that the woman is a woman and that as his legally wedded wife she has a lawful claim to those benefits.

You do not like this woman because she has commited crimes in the past and was not completely honest with her husband. I do not like that about her either. I agree with you that she has acted wrongly.

But I think that she has a legal right to those benefits. And she should not be denied them just because she was born with a male body

What I want or do not want is irrelevant. Legally she has a right to those profits. I am just attempting to review the situation logicall.

The emotional reaction is to gve all the benefits to the mans children because his wife does not seem like a very nice woman. But I think legally she has a greater right to the benefits

This is like trying to argue that the 'pregnant man' is a man. He is not a man. He was born a woman! Plain and simple.

The woman in this case was born a man. Period.

 

[mrvlknight21]

In a related story from my hometown and alma mater.....
There is a video on the website that covers more/different topics than the cut and paste below.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/crime-courts/2010-07-22/christian-student-sues-asu?v=1279849043

Cut and paste below:

Christian student sues ASU
School says master's candidate must change beliefs, suit statesBy Stephanie Toone
Staff Writer
Thursday, July 22, 2010
An Augusta State University graduate student is facing dismissal from the university's counseling program unless she silences her convictions on homosexuality and gender identity, according to court documents filed Wednesday.


Jennifer Keeton is suing ASU for trying to silence her religious views.

Jennifer Keeton, 24, plans to press forward with her lawsuit against the university if she is not allowed to retain her biblical viewpoints and remain a graduate student at ASU, according to the complaint filed by the Alliance Defense Fund. The complaint names ASU President William Bloodworth and professors Mary Jane Anderson-Wiley, Paulette Schenck and Richard Deaner as defendants, according to the documents filed in United States District Court in Augusta.

"Jennifer Keeton has not been accused of mistreating a client," said David French, senior counsel for ADF, a legal alliance that supports religious freedom. "She's being told, 'You must change your beliefs or we'll deny you a degree.' "

Keeton claims that she has voiced her Christian beliefs inside and outside the classroom on homosexuality and other biblical teachings. ASU faculty has ordered her to undergo a remediation plan, which would include diversity sensitivity workshops, she says.

Professors also suggested that she attend Augusta's Gay Pride Parade last month, Keeton told her attorneys. As a part of the plan, she would report back once a month to faculty to determine whether the activities have an impact on her convictions.

Keeton, who is from the Atlanta area, plans to become a school counselor, and says she refuses to change her religious beliefs. She enrolled in the program last fall, but was not asked to begin the remediation plan until this summer.

"While I want to stay in the school counseling program, I know that I can't honestly complete the remediation plan knowing that I would have to alter my beliefs," Keeton said in a video produced by the defense fund. "I'm not willing to, and I know I can't change my biblical views."

Her lawyers declined a request for an interview with Keeton.

The defense fund has handled similar cases the past few years. A Missouri State University social work student filed suit against the university when she was asked to change her views on same-sex adoption, French said. The university later settled. An Eastern Michigan University counseling student filed suit when the university threatened to dismiss her for her religious views. The case is still pending.

"This is an emerging trend in education, social work and counseling," French said. "Schools are trying to ensure that their children graduate with a particular world view."

Edward Delgado-Romero, a University of Georgia associate professor of counseling psychology, said he is not familiar with the case, but is aware that every university counseling program has national guidelines on training and practice. Every student entering the counseling field should be aware of what is considered acceptable, he said.

"All programs that are training professional counselors have guidelines, not in terms of belief but in terms of behavior during training and treatment," Delgado-Romero said. "A student saying 'I personally have religious beliefs against this group, and I will convince my clients to believe this' would be a conflict."

Delgado-Romero said that UGA's faculty would not force a student to change their beliefs, but there would be discussions on how personal beliefs should not affect treatment of clients.

Messages left for an Augusta State University spokeswoman were not returned Thursday evening.

Though Keeton has refused the remediation plan, the university has not taken steps to dismiss her, French said.

Keeton is suing the university for actual and nominal damages to vindicate her "constitutional injuries," according to court documents. She is also requesting that the university pay for her attorney fees.

"I really want to serve others," Keeton said. "I want to strengthen and prepare young people for the challenges they will face."

For those that were interested in this, a 2nd article was written with more information.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/education/2010-07-24/asu-student-says-gays-have-identity-confusion

cut and paste below:

A student who is suing Augusta State University says she considers gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender lifestyles as "identity confusion," and shared those views in class discussions and written assignments.

Jennifer Keeton, a 24-year-old graduate student, said in an e-mail Friday that she had told Paulette Schenck, an ASU assistant professor named as a defendant in the suit, that homosexuality is a behavioral choice. However, Keeton said allegations by college officials that she would encourage conversion therapy on students or her clients is false.

ASU and state Board of Regents officials said Friday they couldn't talk about the lawsuit, which claims ASU professors demanded Keeton suppress her views on homosexuals to remain in a counseling program.

School spokeswoman Kathy Schofe said the university has not been served with the legal paperwork but officials are aware that Keeton is suing the university.

John Millsaps, a Regents spokesman, said the lawsuit has muzzled both the university and state officials.

Schofe said much the same, but added: "Hopefully, I'll be able to comment soon, because we're being slammed."

She said commenting on Keeton's academic standing would violate the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act. She also said university faculty do not discriminate in regards to religious or moral beliefs.

The counselor education program is accredited by the Council for the Accreditation of Counseling and Related Education Programs, and more than 250 students have graduated from the program, Schofe said.

The counseling program follows the American School Counselor Association's ethical standards, which specify that counselors in training must "recognize and accept" individual differences, cultural diversity and alternative points of view.

In her suit, Keeton, who wants to become a school counselor, claims Mary Jane Anderson-Wiley, an ASU associate professor, requested that Keeton take part in a remediation plan because of her beliefs about gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender issues.

Keeton was ordered to take part in diversity training and write two-page reflection papers monthly on how "her study has influenced her beliefs," according to court documents. The lawsuit claims that Keeton will be removed from the ASU counseling program if she does not comply with the plan.

The Alliance Defense Fund, a legal alliance that supports religious freedom, filed the suit for Keeton in U.S. District Court in Augusta on Wednesday. The agency has declined to allow Keeton to be interviewed, but she has responded to submitted e-mail questions.

Elizabeth Evans, of Louisville, said she had a similar experience when she began the counselor education program at ASU in 1995. After taking three courses, Evans said she was interviewed by a panel of professors who questioned her religious beliefs.

"I told them I think homosexuality is wrong. The Bible speaks against it," she said. "I was not admitted to the program, because of my beliefs. When I read the article, my heart hurt for Jennifer."

Evans said she decided to pursue a master's degree in early childhood education at the university. She is currently pursuing a doctorate degree.

Though she found her calling, she said Christian students at the university should not be treated as Keeton has.

"I can't believe they suggested that she go to the gay pride parade," Evans said. "I hope she sues the pants off of them."

 

[Pink Ranger]

You cannot seriously believe that.

It's important to note that gender dysphoria is real. It's recognized by the American Psychiatric Association and every other credible body in the world.

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm

I know in the gay community, a lot of guys still have problems with trannies, but they're real and need to be recognized as such. In order for a transwoman to go all the way, there's a very strict criteria and procedure one has to go through. It's not just like you wake up one morning and decide to chop off your little ranger.

Now, I'm not defending this person's actions, because she smells like a gold-digger to me, but I'm just saying we need to respect the T in LGBT. If not, then we have no business defending ourselves whenever people tell us that being gay is a choice, or we're gay because we were molested as kids, or we're gay because Hollywood and New York made us that way, and all the other stupid myths out there.

 

[Marx]

It's important to note that gender dysphoria is real. It's recognized by the American Psychiatric Association and every other credible body in the world.

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm

I know in the gay community, a lot of guys still have problems with trannies, but they're real and need to be recognized as such. In order for a transwoman to go all the way, there's a very strict criteria and procedure one has to go through. It's not just like you wake up one morning and decide to chop off your little ranger.

Now, I'm not defending this person's actions, because she smells like a gold-digger to me, but I'm just saying we need to respect the T in LGBT. If not, then we have no business defending ourselves whenever people tell us that being gay is a choice, or we're gay because we were molested as kids, or we're gay because Hollywood and New York made us that way, and all the other stupid myths out there.

I will be the first to admit that I do not understand the transgendered thing. It honestly makes no sense to me. And while I believe that everyone deserves respect, the issue remains that this woman was born a man. And despite what may be going on upstairs, that does not change what you were born with downstairs.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I will be the first to admit that I do not understand the transgendered thing. It honestly makes no sense to me. And while I believe that everyone deserves respect, the issue remains that this woman was born a man. And despite what may be going on upstairs, that does not change what you were born with downstairs.

You seem open to learning more, which is commendable and puts you ahead of most people, even within the LGBT community. And I encourage you to learn more, hopefully through more knowledgable sources than me.

I guess the big question is, the transitioning process is long, painful (both emotionally and physically) and so detailed: if it is so important for transwomen to be recognized as women after such a hard fought battle and so many hoops to jump through, is it so hard for us to make that step, after all they've done to earn their gender identity? And why, just because of DNA?

Keep in mind, the number of transwomen who have gone through the entire process is a tiny percentage of the population, even if you were just looking at LGBT people. There's very little chance of a slippery slope or abuse of process here.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You seem open to learning more, which is commendable and puts you ahead of most people, even within the LGBT community. And I encourage you to learn more, hopefully through more knowledgable sources than me.

I guess the big question is, the transitioning process is long, painful (both emotionally and physically) and so detailed: if it is so important for transwomen to be recognized as women after such a hard fought battle and so many hoops to jump through, is it so hard for us to make that step, after all they've done to earn their gender identity? And why, just because of DNA?

Keep in mind, the number of transwomen who have gone through the entire process is a tiny percentage of the population, even if you were just looking at LGBT people. There's very little chance of a slippery slope or abuse of process here.

I think that you have to look at this both ways.

To me, I'm going to call a transgendered woman, a woman. And I will refer to her as she, her, and whatnot. And I remember my mother introducing me to a transgendered woman and while it was a little odd since I never met a transgendered person before, I still made sure not to refer to her as him (and it was a little tough since she was married to a woman and had kids). Mentally a transgendered woman, is a woman. And if a transgendered woman gets the ol' snip-snip, they're physically a woman as well. And there is nothing wrong with that either, transgendered people are entitled to happiness as well, and if changing their gender will allow them to obtain that happiness, they should go for it. And they shouldn't be discriminated for it.

However, Marx also presents a rather valid viewpoint. The Y-chromosome is not a genetic defect like Mystirious makes it out to be when it comes to being a transgendered person. If you are born a male, you're supposed to be a male. And no matter what, a transgendered woman is always going to be a biological male. The Y-chromosome is not the issue, the issue is the gender dysphoria which causes it. And you have to take that into account when it comes to certain things, like Nikki Araguz should have told her husband that she used to be a man.

 

[Pink Ranger]

The Y-chromosome is a defect only when it makes you like watching baseball.

 

[Mystirious]

It's important to note that gender dysphoria is real. It's recognized by the American Psychiatric Association and every other credible body in the world.

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm

I know in the gay community, a lot of guys still have problems with trannies, but they're real and need to be recognized as such. In order for a transwoman to go all the way, there's a very strict criteria and procedure one has to go through. It's not just like you wake up one morning and decide to chop off your little ranger.

Now, I'm not defending this person's actions, because she smells like a gold-digger to me, but I'm just saying we need to respect the T in LGBT. If not, then we have no business defending ourselves whenever people tell us that being gay is a choice, or we're gay because we were molested as kids, or we're gay because Hollywood and New York made us that way, and all the other stupid myths out there.

Agreed Pink Ranger

I will be the first to admit that I do not understand the transgendered thing. It honestly makes no sense to me. And while I believe that everyone deserves respect, the issue remains that this woman was born a man. And despite what may be going on upstairs, that does not change what you were born with downstairs.

She was born biologically male Marx. I agree with you.

But and this is only my opinion on the matter I think that the fact she has always been mentally female is more important than what she was born. And she has changed what she has downstairs now as well.

Many people do not really understand Transgender issues. I would reccomend looking into the subject, especially any first hand accounts from men and women who actually are transgender, if you would like to learn more about the issues involved Marx

 

[BlackLantern]

I remember that LA Times writer who went from male to female...then back...and then killed himself

weird f'n story

 

[Mystirious]

I remember that LA Times writer who went from male to female...then back...and then killed himself

weird f'n story

A sad story. I think that he must have been a very depressed man to kill himself.

I am calling him a he as he transitioned back to male, so I presume that is how he would wish to be referred to.

 

[BlackLantern]

his name was Mike Penner, he also wrote after his surgery as Christine Daniels

 

[Pink Ranger]

I think that you have to look at this both ways.

To me, I'm going to call a transgendered woman, a woman. And I will refer to her as she, her, and whatnot. And I remember my mother introducing me to a transgendered woman and while it was a little odd since I never met a transgendered person before, I still made sure not to refer to her as him (and it was a little tough since she was married to a woman and had kids). Mentally a transgendered woman, is a woman. And if a transgendered woman gets the ol' snip-snip, they're physically a woman as well. And there is nothing wrong with that either, transgendered people are entitled to happiness as well, and if changing their gender will allow them to obtain that happiness, they should go for it. And they shouldn't be discriminated for it.

However, Marx also presents a rather valid viewpoint. The Y-chromosome is not a genetic defect like Mystirious makes it out to be when it comes to being a transgendered person. If you are born a male, you're supposed to be a male. And no matter what, a transgendered woman is always going to be a biological male. The Y-chromosome is not the issue, the issue is the gender dysphoria which causes it. And you have to take that into account when it comes to certain things, like Nikki Araguz should have told her husband that she used to be a man.

Without knowing much more, it seems like your mother is a great woman, and did a pretty good job raising her kid(s).

 

[ALP]

If there's a group treated worse than gay and lesbians it is definitely transexuals. They don't deserve the hate they get. It's why many transwomen do not actually tell people. But it is definitely important to tell someone you're getting married to and going to spend the rest of your life with. So as much as I support the trans community, I don't think anyone is surprised by the man's actions. It would be a complete and utter shock to learn that your wife was once a man and she never told you.

The amount of heterosexual men who would be accepting of that is a very very small percentage I assume.

 

[Mystirious]

If there's a group treated worse than gay and lesbians it is definitely transexuals. They don't deserve the hate they get. It's why many transwomen do not actually tell people. But it is definitely important to tell someone you're getting married to and going to spend the rest of your life with. So as much as I support the trans community, I don't think anyone is surprised by the man's actions. It would be a complete and utter shock to learn that your wife was once a man and she never told you.

The amount of heterosexual men who would be accepting of that is a very very small percentage I assume.

I agree.

I would assume the percentage is quite small. The percentage is growing as tolerance and understanding grows. But I think that Transphobia is very hard for a lot of people to let go of. There is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion about it and I think that is very sad.

Most people who have problems with Transgender people are not bigoted like Fred Phelps. As people become more educated it is my fervent hope that they will become more accepting and more tolerant.

It is a sad truth that most problems between peoples are not built on hatred. It is rare that prejudice comes in the shape of people like Hitler or Phelps. Most often it is because people simply fear what they do not understand.

I hope that with time there will be more people in the world like the ones in this thread who are so tolerant and understanding of different peoples.

Without knowing much more, it seems like your mother is a great woman, and did a pretty good job raising her kid(s).

hippie_hunter's mother sounds like a very lovely and tolerant woman.

 

[Marx]

She was born biologically male Marx. I agree with you.

But and this is only my opinion on the matter I think that the fact she has always been mentally female is more important than what she was born. And she has changed what she has downstairs now as well.

Many people do not really understand Transgender issues. I would reccomend looking into the subject, especially any first hand accounts from men and women who actually are transgender, if you would like to learn more about the issues involved Marx

That is where we disagree.

 

[Mystirious]

That is where we disagree.

That is okay. We will agree to disagree Marx

You respect Transgender peoples right to be who they are. That is the important thing.

I cannot say I like her very much as a person either. I agree with you and Pink Ranger that she seems like a b****.

I do not think she should be denied the benefits solely because she was born male.

I do think she should be denied the benefits if her husband was in the proccess of getting a divorce. In that case I think the money should go to his family or next of kin.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I cannot say I like her very much as a person either. I agree with you and Pink Ranger that she seems like a b***.

lol, I think you're short an imaginary letter there. Unless you meant to say "bore," which is fine, but really there's no need to censor yourself there.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Without knowing much more, it seems like your mother is a great woman, and did a pretty good job raising her kid(s).

hippie_hunter's mother sounds like a very lovely and tolerant woman.

I remember the one gay person who worked at where I work telling me that my mother raised me right

Ironic considering how blatantly homophobic my father is. I do find it odd how my parents are still together when they are completely opposite people.

 

[Mystirious]

lol, I think you're short an imaginary letter there. Unless you meant to say "bore," which is fine, but really there's no need to censor yourself there.

I remember the one gay person who worked at where I work telling me that my mother raised me right

Ironic considering how blatantly homophobic my father is. I do find it odd how my parents are still together when they are completely opposite people.

I am glad that you take after your mother hippie_hunter

 

[Pink Ranger]

I remember the one gay person who worked at where I work telling me that my mother raised me right

Ironic considering how blatantly homophobic my father is. I do find it odd how my parents are still together when they are completely opposite people.

Well, that's the best thing about parents sometimes. Whether you agree with them or not, their values in and of themselves teach you a lot about the world, and you can pick and choose which values to keep as your own.

 

[Marx]

TARGET CEO CONTRIBUTES $150,000 TO ANTI-GAY POLITICIAN
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/27/target-homophobia-ceo-gre_n_660990.html