Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

[Mr Sparkle]

That part is true, Climate Change is Happening. It was cooler this morning, but by noon, it was like warm. I hope that it doesn't keep getting warmer all day. I thought that it was going to get really warm yesterday, but then Global Cooling kicked in and it got cooler by about 20 degrees. We narrowly missed that one!

why are you afraid of accepting that Climate change is a fact?
it's actually one of the argument used by those against it.
"maybe it's natural" and stuff.
but yeah whatever gets you through I guess, some people find it easier to believe that everything is a-ok, I mean, it is, facing up to such a daunting task requires maturity and responsibility.

 

[Carcharodon]

By the way, what ever happened to the Ozone Hole thingy? Did that just seal itself up, or did it just not sell that many newspapers?

It has the ability to regenerate itself, but it can only do so at a certain rate. It shrank at one point, due in no small part to a nearly global agreement to lower the amount of CFC's being released into the atmosphere. It still remains a problem, but there's been progress.

I think that the disappearance of the ozone-hole phenomenon from the media spotlight had something to do not only with its diminished value as a buzz-word, but also with the appearance of the new buzz-words that actually incorporate a much broader view of the problem: global warming.

 

[Carcharodon]

That part is true, Climate Change is Happening. It was cooler this morning, but by noon, it was like warm. I hope that it doesn't keep getting warmer all day. I thought that it was going to get really warm yesterday, but then Global Cooling kicked in and it got cooler by about 20 degrees. We narrowly missed that one!

I actually despise it when people take specific instances of weather and try to use it as evidence for or against climate change. What these people fail to understand is that, "climate," and, "weather," are two very, very different things.

...I know you were being glib, but that comment actually represents a widely-held view.

 

[SuBe]

why are you afraid of accepting that Climate change is a fact?
it's actually one of the argument used by those against it.
"maybe it's natural" and stuff.
but yeah whatever gets you through I guess, some people find it easier to believe that everything is a-ok, I mean, it is, facing up to such a daunting task requires maturity and responsibility.

Oh, now I'm Inmature? Global Warming, if at all, is Natural. We can't do anything to stop it or start it. Climate comes in cycles. Live with it.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Oh, now I'm Inmature? Global Warming, if at all, is Natural. We can't do anything to stop it or start it. Climate comes in cycles. Live with it.

yes you are, since your view is NOT widely held, yet you think it's scientific Gospel.
Climate change exists, and Man has an impact on it, how BIG an impact is the meat of the matter.

I urge YOU to " deal with it" since it's my stance that actually requires dealing with something.

 

[SuBe]

yes you are, since your view is NOT widely held, yet you think it's scientific Gospel.
Climate change exists, and Man has an impact on it, how BIG an impact is the meat of the matter.

I urge YOU to " deal with it" since it's my stance that actually requires dealing with something.

Answer me this Sparky, what caused the Glaciers to melt during the last Ice Age? And, Was that Natural, or Unnatural?

 

[CorpusBlack]

Answer me this Sparky, what caused the Glaciers to melt during the last Ice Age? And, Was that Natural, or Unnatural?

Elves and no!

 

[Carcharodon]

Answer me this Sparky, what caused the Glaciers to melt during the last Ice Age? And, Was that Natural, or Unnatural?

...not all the glaciers melted, though. In fact, a huge portion have been around up until recent times. Many are melting due to the increase in average global temperature.

That question seems a bit loaded (like I'll be later...woohoo!), and it implies that none of the ice-age glaciers made it to this present time.

 

[SuBe]

...not all the glaciers melted, though. In fact, a huge portion have been around up until recent times. Many are melting due to the increase in average global temperature.

That question seems a bit loaded (like I'll be later...woohoo!), and it implies that none of the ice-age glaciers made it to this present time.

I understand that they all aren't gone, but the ones that are gone, what happened? Did the world just heat up on its own? Actually, did the world just cool on its own to get to the Ice Age? And How many Ige Ages have there been? I know more than one. So, the world continually changes.

I was reading the Wiki on Ice Ages. Found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

This, if true, seems to show that we have been on a warming trend, since FOREVER!

 

[Carcharodon]

I understand that they all aren't gone, but the ones that are gone, what happened? Did the world just heat up on its own? Actually, did the world just cool on its own to get to the Ice Age? And How many Ige Ages have there been? I know more than one. So, the world continually changes.

I was reading the Wiki on Ice Ages. Found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

This, if true, seems to show that we have been on a warming trend, since FOREVER!

I'm pretty sure that ice-ages are the result of warming trends affecting ocean currents (and, consequently, global heat transfer). I'm not sure what causes the natural warming cycles.

It could be the fact that the greenhouse effect is a naturally-occurring phenomenon (the greenhouse effect is very real), and causes gradual warming (just as said warming leads to a gradual cooling). Perhaps the problem with our interference with the cycle is that we're causing an acceleration in the warming such that natural recovery will be disrupted. Not completely halted, mind you...just disrupted.

 

[CorpusBlack]

Global warming is real because God doesn't like us and he is pushing us towards the sun.

 

[Carcharodon]

Global warming is real because God doesn't like us and he is pushing us towards the sun.

Oh, that God...a solution for everything! I mean, that's why he made the sun: it's a giant incinerator!

Hitler was thinking too small, I suppose.

 

[CorpusBlack]

Oh, that God...a solution for everything! I mean, that's why he made the sun: it's a giant incinerator!

Hitler was thinking too small, I suppose.

Finally, someone gets it.

 

[Anguissette1979]

Chem 101:

Water is one of the only substances that EXPANDS when it freezes. This is why ice floats in water. All of this ice we are talking about melting is already in the ocean. Just frozen. when melted it will take up the same amount of space as the water it displaces.

Zoken - the change in sea level will come from LAND ICE melting... specifically the Greenland and Antarctic ice caps. There is a smaller, but still significant, contribution from other land glaciers in high latitudes and high elevations.

Ice bergs, Arctic sea ice and Antarctic ice shelf regions will have a small contribution but not nearly as much as land ice because, as you said, 90% of their volume is already displacing water.

If all the ice melted on Earth sea level would rise by about 250 feet.

 

[Danalys]

I understand that they all aren't gone, but the ones that are gone, what happened? Did the world just heat up on its own? Actually, did the world just cool on its own to get to the Ice Age? And How many Ige Ages have there been? I know more than one. So, the world continually changes.

I was reading the Wiki on Ice Ages. Found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

This, if true, seems to show that we have been on a warming trend, since FOREVER!

actually that graph shows cooling over time note the graph goes from modern to past, left to right.

 

[Anguissette1979]

I'm pretty sure that ice-ages are the result of warming trends affecting ocean currents (and, consequently, global heat transfer). I'm not sure what causes the natural warming cycles.

There are three factors that have an effect on natural warming cycles:

Eccentricity: The earth's orbit changes shape from more circular to more elliptical and back on a ~100,000 year cycle. This means that at some points in time the earth will orbit closer to the sun than others. More solar radiation = more heat

Obliquity: The earth's axis changes from more straight to more tipped on a ~41,000 year cycle. This means that at some points, a given spot on the globe may be tilted more or less away from the sun. Greater angle of tilt means less solar radiation in winter and more solar radiation in summer. The net effect is that when the earth is tilted at a greater angle temperatures are more seasonal on earth (winters colder and summers hotter).

Precession: The earth "wobbles" on its axis like a spinning top on a rougly ~26,000 year cycle. Currently the earth is tilted towards the sun in northern hemisphere winter. The "wobble" changes the time of year that the earth's axis is pointed toward the sun. Having the northern hemisphere tilted towards the sun in winter keeps our winters relatively more temperate than if we were tilted away from the sun in the winter.

These three cycles either affect the distance from the earth to the sun (closer = hotter) or the angle that the sun's rays hit a given spot on the globe (greater angle up to 90 degrees = hotter)

 

[The Apatow Crew]

It was another warm day. not as warm as yesterday but still warm.

It was 62. this is my kind of winter.

 

[Matt Murdock]

65 today.

 

[Anguissette1979]

actually that graph shows cooling over time note the graph goes from modern to past, left to right.

The other problem is that it covers so much time that the last ~20,000 years can hardly be seen at all...

We have been climbing out of an ice age so some warming is to be expected but the issue at hand is the fact that we are warming FAR faster than should be expected given the estimated global temperature changes after previous glacial periods.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

It could be the fact that the greenhouse effect is a naturally-occurring phenomenon (the greenhouse effect is very real), and causes gradual warming (just as said warming leads to a gradual cooling). Perhaps the problem with our interference with the cycle is that we're causing an acceleration in the warming such that natural recovery will be disrupted. Not completely halted, mind you...just disrupted.

not only that, but like it was shown with the CFC thing back in the 80's Man's impact on a natural system can be devious in it's progress, sure, no one burst into flames, but there was a dramatic increase in damage to the skin due to exposure and an increase in Cancer cases ( skin cancer) the thing is that most people don't understand that this isn't about the place going all "day after tomorrow" all of a sudden, but that these sort of small and hazardous changes are responsible for a very chaotic environment.
the "sit back and wait" people, to me, seem more focussed on saying "I don't want to do anything, therefore nothing must wrong" but there has been a severe impact on diverse ecosystems by man, to ignore this is folly.

 

[Danalys]

as shown by the famous hockey stick graph.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

the wiki page is pretty comprehensive and even handed.

Yeah, I always trust Wikipedia.

I understand that they all aren't gone, but the ones that are gone, what happened? Did the world just heat up on its own? Actually, did the world just cool on its own to get to the Ice Age? And How many Ige Ages have there been? I know more than one. So, the world continually changes.

I was reading the Wiki on Ice Ages. Found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

This, if true, seems to show that we have been on a warming trend, since FOREVER!

so when you're trying to use it to make your point it IS reliable?

 

[Carcharodon]

There are three factors that have an effect on natural warming cycles:

Eccentricity: The earth's orbit changes shape from more circular to more elliptical and back on a ~100,000 year cycle. This means that at some points in time the earth will orbit closer to the sun than others. More solar radiation = more heat

Obliquity: The earth's axis changes from more straight to more tipped on a ~41,000 year cycle. This means that at some points, a given spot on the globe may be tilted more or less away from the sun. Greater angle of tilt means less solar radiation in winter and more solar radiation in summer. The net effect is that when the earth is tilted at a greater angle temperatures are more seasonal on earth (winters colder and summers hotter).

Precession: The earth "wobbles" on its axis like a spinning top on a rougly ~26,000 year cycle. Currently the earth is tilted towards the sun in northern hemisphere winter. The "wobble" changes the time of year that the earth's axis is pointed toward the sun. Having the northern hemisphere tilted towards the sun in winter keeps our winters relatively more temperate than if we were tilted away from the sun in the winter.

These three cycles either affect the distance from the earth to the sun (closer = hotter) or the angle that the sun's rays hit a given spot on the globe (greater angle up to 90 degrees = hotter)

Makes sense. However, does this mean that the cooling cycles are affected by the same factors with the opposite effects? Again, I'd understood cooling cycles to have at least partially to do with changes in the ocean currents brought on by warming.

Are these factors (terrestrial vs. orbital) independent of one another, and if not, what would be the relationship? I suppose that's my actual question.

 

[Zoken]

That part is true, Climate Change is Happening. It was cooler this morning, but by noon, it was like warm. I hope that it doesn't keep getting warmer all day. I thought that it was going to get really warm yesterday, but then Global Cooling kicked in and it got cooler by about 20 degrees. We narrowly missed that one!

By "100% Proven Climate Change is a fact" he is simply refering to the... phenomenon of the changing climate. He was admitting that what is not yet proven is what amount of effect humans have on it. That's why I agreed with him. I agree, I think it's mostly likely a natural cycle, but you did respond in an immature way.

 

[Anguissette1979]

Makes sense. However, does this mean that the cooling cycles are affected by the same factors with the opposite effects? Again, I'd understood cooling cycles to have at least partially to do with changes in the ocean currents brought on by warming.

Are these factors (terrestrial vs. orbital) independent of one another, and if not, what would be the relationship? I suppose that's my actual question.

The "ocean cooling" effect you speak of is driven by warming. As ice melts on a large scale (reglardless of it is land ice or sea ice) it sends a HUGE amount of freshwater into the otherwise salty ocean. Ocean currents are three dimensional - they flow on the surface but at certain known points on the globe, sink or rise in what is called "thermohaline circulation". The current is driven by temperature - cold water is more dense and sinks; and salinity - salty water is more dense and sinks.

When large amounts of cold, fresh water are injected into this system at high latitudes it disrupts the thermohaline circulation. The ocean currents are the "conveyor belts" that transport heat from the equator to the poles. If this converyor belt stops, the equator wamrs up and the poles cool off.

The long answer to your question is that the "ocean cooling" effect is caused by global warming. The other result of this shift in ocean seasurface temperatures is that the weather gets all messed up *cough*tornadoes in winter*cough*