Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

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It's interesting that Europe seems to be much more concerned with this than in America. Much of the publications reported on it and even had it in their front page. Even some of their more "progressive" papers picked up the story asap. They at least admit to it but not necessarily say it is the final nail in the coffin. There is some integrity in this sense. It's almost a bit dismissive here. Did not immediately talk much about it, and when they do it's a bit brief. The only people who are picking on it here are those who enjoy making Democrats not smell like roses and cinnamon buns (aka Fox). At least NPR picked up on it immediately.

I fathom there will be those trying to tack on false information to the zip bundle to sabotage it. If they were willing to go as far as they had before, why not now?
 
Im all for finding more efficient and enviro friendly ways of doing things, but trying to scare people into it is bad mojo
 
Energy efficiency goes a long way in helping money management. That is one of the greatest incentives. Scaring and strong arming them of money through guilt. Bad idea.
 
getting the US off of foreign oil should have nothing to do with fear and everything to do with economic good sense
 
well CNN and Reuters did pick it up ....maybe Fox News might actually do some reporting for once and pounce on it
 
I was watching this. A bunch of European publication took the story first, and they were not small fry. It was BBC and the Guardian amongst the many. Only NPR, WSJ and Fox in the United States picked up on the story first. A couple days later, they ran with the "hacker" story (Reuters and AP) and was recycled or paraphrased from those two. The first non-Fox/NPR publication to report was the New York Times, and interestingly one of their writers, Andrew Revkin was complicit in the debacle was spinning this. Note they continue to use the hacker byline when is no evidence to suggest it is, if nothing else, the evidence point more towards an inside job whistleblower.
 
maybe its a double reverse....someone making it look like there is evidence to cover up global cooling
 
I am going with the easiest explanation. The incentive is in the money. You get more money for reporting on things they want to hear. And they don't want to hear any doubt. It is part of the giant political machine for carbon credits.

I think the biggest bullet is the HARRY_READ_ME file over the handling of data (post 231 of this thread).
 
Don't ever listen to what the Guardian news paper says. It's just a bunch of politically correct tree huggers who write that ****e.
 
I live in the US and I know that the Guardian is a rag....has any media outlet seen or read these e-mail directly?? Im just now finding out about this so where is the information coming from and can it be verified?
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2009/11/climategate-cru-hacked-into-an.shtml
Very busy with forecast duties right now, but I do intend to write a blog regarding the UK Climate research centre (CRU) being hacked into, and the possible implications of this very serious affair.

I will add comment on this page as soon as I can free up some time. But I will in the meantime answer the question regarding the chain of e-mails which you have been commenting about on my blog, which can be seen here, and whether they are genuine or part of an elaborate hoax.

I was forwarded the chain of e-mails on the 12th October, which are comments from some of the worlds leading climate scientists written as a direct result of my article 'whatever happened to global warming'. The e-mails released on the internet as a result of CRU being hacked into are identical to the ones I was forwarded and read at the time and so, as far as l can see, they are authentic.

More later.
It sounds like this batch of files have been circulating under the radar to the media to some extent until it was recently blown wide open.
 
and that's a good response...I think a lot of people on both sides of the argument are worried about the authenticity of the information...Id love to know exactly what they say and who they are from, but there needs to be some sort of proof that its genuine
 
I live in the US and I know that the Guardian is a rag....has any media outlet seen or read these e-mail directly?? Im just now finding out about this so where is the information coming from and can it be verified?
The CRU themselves. Their defense was it might not be "in the right context". But for the most part it is legit (what is seen and reported the most on), albeit they haven't read through the thousands of material. Which is kind of hilarious considering if you want to spin this, you deny it or something to save some face :hehe:
 
As I pointed out, I don't doubt some people are going to try to leak fake information to mix the pile up and pollute the integrity of it. If they have no scruples with what they've done in the past, why should it change now?

Again here are all the files: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=003LKN94 (60+ megs)
 
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2009/08/we-lost-original-data.html
12 AUGUST 2009

We Lost the Original Data

Steve McIntyre, of ClimateAudit, is a determined individual. While this may be no fun for those who fall under his focus and happen to have something to hide, more sunlight on climate science cannot be a bad thing.

Lately Steve has been spearheading an effort to get the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia to release the data that underlie its analysis of global temperature trends. Such a request should not at all be controversial. Indeed the atmospheric sciences community went to great lengths in the 1990s to ensure that such data would be openly available for research purposes, culminating in World Meteorological Organization (WMO) Resolution 40 on the international exchange of meteorological and related data and products. The Resolution states:

Members should provide to the research and education communities, for their non-commercial activities, free and unrestricted access to all data and products exchanged under the auspices of WMO . . .

WMO recognized the need to protect commercial activities, but placed no restrictions on the exchange of climate information described as follows:
All reports from the network of stations recommended by the regional associations as necessary to provide a good representation of climate . . .
Obviously, the ability to do good research depends upon good data with known provenance. At the time WMO Resolution 40 was widely hailed in the atmospheric sciences community as a major step forward in data sharing and availability in support of both operations and research.

Thus it is with some surprise to observe CRU going through bizarre contortions to avoid releasing its climate data to Steve McIntyre. They first told him that he couldn't have it because he was not an academic. I found this to be a petty reason for keeping data out of the hands of someone who clearly wants to examine it for scholarly purposes. So, wanting to test this theory I asked CRU for the data myself, being a "real" academic. I received a letter back from CRU stating that I couldn't have the data because "we do not hold the requested information."

I found that odd. How can they not hold the data when they are showing graphs of global temperatures on their webpage? However, it turns out that CRU has in response to requests for its data put up a new webpage with the following remarkable admission (emphasis added):

We are not in a position to supply data for a particular country not covered by the example agreements referred to earlier, as we have never had sufficient resources to keep track of the exact source of each individual monthly value. Since the 1980s, we have merged the data we have received into existing series or begun new ones, so it is impossible to say if all stations within a particular country or if all of an individual record should be freely available. Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data.

Say what?! CRU has lost track of the original data that it uses to create its global temperature record!? Can this be serious? So not only is it now impossible to replicate or reevaluate homogeneity adjustments made in the past -- which might be important to do as new information is learned about the spatial representativeness of siting, land use effects, and so on -- but it is now also impossible to create a new temperature index from scratch. CRU is basically saying, "trust us." So much for settling questions and resolving debates with empirical information (i.e., science).

To be absolutely clear, none of what I write here should be taken as implying that actions to decarbonize the global economy or improve adaptation do not make sense -- they do. However, just because climate change is important and because there are opponents to action that will seize upon whatever they can to make their arguments, does not justify overlooking or defending this degree of scientific sloppiness and ineptitude. Implementing successful climate policy will have to overcome the missteps of the climate science community, and this is a big one.
... and watch what is behind the scenes regarding the FOI.
 
CLIMATEGATE

By Neal Boortz @ November 25, 2009 8:25 AM


By now I am sure that you are well-versed on this Climategate scanda (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.html)l. If not, let me sum it up real quickly: Someone hacked into a climate change research unit and discovered that the scientists had been manipulating and/or hiding data in order to support their fake global warming theory.

Sound about right? I mean, you can read all of the articles and details for yourself ... but the bottom line is that these climate scientists have made a mockery out of their profession.

So ... let's see. Just what do these emails show? Well, how about plugging in false temperatures to research data in order to either show a warming where there was none, or to hide a cooling trend? Yup! It's all detailed in the emails. You can also read about plots and efforts to demean or denigrate any climate scientists who disagreed or strayed from the man-made global warming dogma. You can even find emails where the death of a global warming skeptic was celebrated and suggestions that it would be nice if someone would find another way to send some more skeptics to their eternal celestial dirt nap. Perhaps the scariest revelation to come from this scandal is the fact that peer reviews failed to keep the science honest ... that other scientists were essentially in cahoots to spread false science: global warming.

Now here's what's amazing. We now have some pretty serious evidence that these "scientists" who have been pushing this global warming horsesqueeze on us have an agenda that is only loosely connected with any desire to be truthful. There's an agenda at work here. You can draw your own conclusions, but I think the ultimate goal here is to establish some sort of international wealth seizure and redistribution program. Productive people aren't going to fall for such a scheme if it is sold to them on the basis of some illusory "fairness" or the need to care for the "less fortunate." But if you can con these people into believing that the very survival of the human species is at stake, well ... you can get them to go along with anything. Massive international tax and spend schemes? Well ... OK, if that's what we need to do to save the planet.

Question: Now that you've heard and read about these emails ... are you still a firm global warming believer? Well ... if you voted for Obama; if you still have an Obama bumper sticker on your car; if you still think that your child's government schools is doing an excellent job; if you still use phrases like "give back" and "the less fortunate"; and if you still believe that the rich don't pay their fair share in taxes ... you probably do.

If you want more information on the content of the emails that were hacked, here's your link. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/j...n-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/
 
ClimateGate: The Fix is In


By Robert Tracinski
In early October, I covered a breaking story about evidence of corruption in the basic temperature records maintained by key scientific advocates of the theory of man-made global warming. Global warming "skeptics" had unearthed evidence that scientists at the Hadley Climatic Research Unit at Britain's University of East Anglia had cherry-picked data to manufacture a "hockey stick" graph showing a dramatic-but illusory-runaway warming trend in the late 20th century.

But now newer and much broader evidence has emerged that looks like it will break that scandal wide open. Pundits have already named it "Climategate."

A hacker-or possibly a disillusioned insider-has gathered thousands of e-mails and data from the CRU and made them available on the Web. Officials at the CRU have verified the breach of their system and acknowledged that the e-mails appear to be genuine.

Yes, this is a theft of data-but the purpose of the theft was to blow the whistle on a much bigger, more brazen crime. The CRU has already called in the police to investigate the hacker. But now someone needs to call in the cops to investigate the CRU.

Australian journalist Andrew Bolt has a good overview of the story, with a selection of incriminating e-mails that have already been discovered in the hacked data. Note that these e-mails reveal more than just what it going on at the CRU, since they involve numerous leading British and American climate scientists outside of the CRU.

These e-mails show, among many other things, private admissions of doubt or scientific weakness in the global warming theory. In acknowledging that global temperatures have actually declined for the past decade, one scientist asks, "where the heck is global warming?... The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." They still can't account for it; see a new article in Der Spiegel: "Climatologists Baffled by Global Warming Time-Out." I don't know where these people got their scientific education, but where I come from, if your theory can't predict or explain the observed facts, it's wrong.

More seriously, in one e-mail, a prominent global warming alarmist admits to using a statistical "trick" to "hide the decline" in temperatures. Anthony Watts provides an explanation of this case in technical detail; the "trick" consists of selectively mixing two different kinds of data-temperature "proxies" from tree rings and actual thermometer measurements-in a way designed to produce a graph of global temperatures that ends the way the global warming establishment wants it to: with an upward "hockey stick" slope.

Confirming the earlier scandal about cherry-picked data, the e-mails show CRU scientists conspiring to evade legal requests, under the Freedom of Information Act, for their underlying data. It's a basic rule of science that you don't just get to report your results and ask other people to take you on faith. You also have to report your data and your specific method of analysis, so that others can check it and, yes, even criticize it. Yet that is precisely what the CRU scientists have refused.

But what stood out most for me was extensive evidence of the hijacking of the "peer review" process to enforce global warming dogma. Peer review is the practice of subjecting scientific papers to review by other scientists with relevant expertise before they can be published in professional journals. The idea is to weed out research with obvious flaws or weak arguments, but there is a clear danger that such a process will simply reinforce groupthink. If it is corrupted, peer review can be a mechanism for an entrenched establishment to exclude legitimate challenges by simply refusing to give critics a hearing.

And that is precisely what we find.

In response to an article challenging global warming that was published in the journal Climate Research, CRU head Phil Jones complains that the journal needs to "rid themselves of this troublesome editor"-hopefully not through the same means used by Henry II's knights. Michael Mann replies:

I think we have to stop considering "Climate Research" as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal.

Note the circular logic employed here. Skepticism about global warming is wrong because it is not supported by scientific articles in "legitimate peer-reviewed journals." But if a journal actually publishes such an article, then it is by definition not "legitimate."

You can also see from these e-mails the scientists' panic at any dissent appearing in the scientific literature. When another article by a skeptic was published in Geophysical Research Letters, Michael Mann complains, "It's one thing to lose Climate Research. We can't afford to lose GRL." Another CRU scientist, Tom Wigley, suggests that they target another troublesome editor: "If you think that Saiers is in the greenhouse skeptics camp, then, if we can find documentary evidence of this, we could go through official AGU channels to get him ousted." That's exactly what they did, and a later e-mail boasts that "The GRL leak may have been plugged up now w/new editorial leadership there."

Not content to block out all dissent from scientific journals, the CRU scientists also conspired to secure friendly reviewers who could be counted on to rubber-stamp their own work. Phil Jones suggests such a list to Kevin Trenberth, with the assurance that "All of them know the sorts of things to say...without any prompting."

So it's no surprise when another e-mail refers to an attempt to keep inconvenient scientific findings out of a UN report: "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. K and I will keep them out somehow-even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!" Think of all of this the next time you hear someone invoke the authority of peer review-or of the UN's IPCC reports-as backing for claims about global warming.

This scandal goes beyond scientific journals and into other media used to promote the global warming dogma. For example, RealClimate.org has been billed as an objective website at which global warming activists and skeptics can engage in an impartial debate. But in the CRU e-mails, the global warming establishment boasts that RealClimate is in their pocket.

I wanted you guys to know that you're free to use RC in any way you think would be helpful. Gavin and I are going to be careful about what comments we screen through.... We can hold comments up in the queue and contact you about whether or not you think they should be screened through or not, and if so, any comments you'd like us to include.

[T]hink of RC as a resource that is at your disposal.... We'll use our best discretion to make sure the skeptics don't get to use the RC comments as a megaphone.

And anyone doubting that the mainstream media is in on it, too, should check out New York Times reporter Andrew Revkin's toadying apologia for the CRU e-mails, masquerading as a news report.

The picture that emerges is simple. In any discussion of global warming, either in the scientific literature or in the mainstream media, the outcome is always predetermined. Just as the temperature graphs produced by the CRU are always tricked out to show an upward-sloping "hockey stick," every discussion of global warming has to show that it is occurring and that humans are responsible. And any data or any scientific paper that tends to disprove that conclusion is smeared as "unscientific" precisely because it threatens the established dogma.

For more than a decade, we've been told that there is a scientific "consensus" that humans are causing global warming, that "the debate is over" and all "legitimate" scientists acknowledge the truth of global warming. Now we know what this "consensus" really means. What it means is: the fix is in.

This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars devoted to climate research, dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money-Phil Jones has raked in a total of £13.7 million in grants from the British government-which they then use to falsify data and defraud the taxpayers. It's the most insidious kind of fraud: a fraud in which the culprits are lauded as public heroes. Judging from this cache of e-mails, they even manage to tell themselves that their manipulation of the data is intended to protect a bigger truth and prevent it from being "confused" by inconvenient facts and uncontrolled criticism.

The damage here goes far beyond the loss of a few billions of taxpayer dollars on bogus scientific research. The real cost of this fraud is the trillions of dollars of wealth that will be destroyed if a fraudulent theory is used to justify legislation that starves the global economy of its cheapest and most abundant sources of energy.

This is the scandal of the century. It needs to be thoroughly investigated-and the culprits need to be brought to justice.

Robert Tracinski writes daily commentary at TIADaily.com. He is the editor of The Intellectual Activist and TIADaily.com.
 
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From what I've heard, there is going to be no investigation on this.
 
It's not the "trick".

It's not the denials/withholds of data (UK FOI Act issue).

It's not the "redefining of peer review literature" and kicking out certain skeptics.

It's the programming code and predetermined data output that is the HUGE issue here. Even ignoring this bias, it's poorly coded in of itself. That is the billion dollar problem. It's really unfortunate it is a technie thing. Even the likes of Fox are not reporting it because they probably don't know how to explain it. It's not something that can be done in a convenient sound bite. Something needs to be done about this.
 
So far this seems like people with an agenda trying to report on thousands of emails from scientists with information that goes way over their head. Kind of like how the anti-evolution people ask, "But how can a monkey give birth to a human."

I'll wait until people more knowledgable on the subject chim in, rather than relying on the word of the conservative media.

It should also be noted that, from what I can read, the conclusions being drawn by the author of the article posted by 'Dox don't line up with the material presented. There's a skew. This isn't necessarily as damning as some would like to believe.

There's so much to cover here by way of refutation that I don't know where to begin. I guess I could point out the very obvious: there is very, very little context with which to evaluate these conversations.

For instance, the first bit you posted (about "real temps") sounds pretty alarming until you read beyond the conveniently bolded portion, where they begin to talk about estimated temperatures. The reader is supposed to assume that "real" is meant as the opposite of "fake," implying data fabrication, whereas the context of real vs. estimated puts that particular conversation in a completely different light. Secondly, none of us know what decline they're talking about. I'd love to get a little more background, and it seems awfully suspicious that for all of this supposed damning evidence, these conversations seem to be picked in a way that hides context.

The second one (referring to "milking" data) is far from incriminating. I mean seriously, have you ever worked with data in a scientific context? You basically have a heaping mess of data, and from said data you're supposed to find and characterize as many trends as possible (or at least as much as is necessary for a study). That quote can too easily be taken to mean that the data has no more trends to reveal.

Let's continue with this nonsense.



No, ******. That document outlines methods of public education in a context directly related to helping make the problem go away. It has far less to do with convincing people there is a problem than it does with persuading people to take action. Bit of a difference.

The fourth is actually the best in terms of incrimination. I'd love to see more about that one, so I'm exploring the links.

Still, if these are the most incriminating examples he can come up with, I'm actually less convinced of fraud than I was when I first heard about the release of these files. He actually pushed me the other way on that. Kudos to him.

I agree with both of these. It's scary to see people with an agenda start throwing around allegations so quickly. And it's really dangerous because people will believe it and hold on to it, even if it's not true.


LOL, that was great. Kind of like reading the Onion.
 
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