Discussion: Rebuilding The World Trade Center

[Dr. Evil]

There are some people in this world who cannot be bought, bullied, or reasoned with... [/Alfred Pennyworth]

Donald Trump will try though. Like Matt says, he never takes no for an answer.

 

[VampElvis]

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent, just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules. There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. ......

I think the obvious oversight here is the "New Covenant" vs the "Old Covenant" concept. The things you reference are Old Covenant principles that were obsoleted with the coming of the Messiah the beginning of the New Covenant, and the birth of the actual Christian faith. While many old Covenant teachings are still very useful to aid one in living a life that tries to encourage fellowship with God, the adherence to them as a requisite to salvation was rendered invalid by the crucifiction and resurrection, so quite rightly Christians do not live according to these strictures.

I think what we don't see in the comparison of the two faiths is a similar "evolution" , for lack of a better word, in the Muslim faith and holy texts. I don't know if there is a simlar transformation as there is in Christianity. However I freely admit my knowledge of Islamic teachings is almost nil and I could very easily be incorrect in this assertion. If I am, please correct me (via PM if you think it would derail the thread).

 

[maenalus]

This is pretty outrageous. The Bible is just as brutal, sexist and filled with calls for violence as the Koran. But you know what, most Christians don't really follow those archaic rules that say a child should be put to death for disobeying a parent,

No Christians follow that rule. Christians have never believed they were bound by such Old Covenant laws on things like that, circumcision, kosher food, etc.

just as most Muslims don't follow those "death to the infidel" rules.

Most Muslims don't need to be willing to, or even approve of, commiting acts of violence for their group, as a whole, to pose the threat of violent jihad to us non-Muslims. Where Muslims go, it's a safe bet there will be those pushing for sharia and committing acts violence against infidels.

There are "Christians" that are just as crazy as these middle eastern extremists, but they are less willing to blow themselves up. Having running water, thousands of tv channels, the internet, and fast food joints on every corner tend to make people less willing to strap a bomb to their chests.

It's a myth that Muslim terrorism is the result of poverty, lack of education and opportunity, and oppression. All of the Muslims who have engaged terrorism against the West; Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Hasan, Umar Abdulmutallab, Carlos Bledsoe, just to name the more recent ones, just to name the most recent ones, have come from wealthy, educated backgrounds.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

No Christians follow that rule. Christians have never believed they were bound by such Old Covenant laws on things like that, circumcision, kosher food, etc.



Most Muslims don't need to be willing to, or even approve of, commiting acts of violence for their group, as a whole, to pose the threat of violent jihad to us non-Muslims. Where Muslims go, it's a safe bet there will be those pushing for sharia and committing acts violence against infidels.




It's a myth that Muslim terrorism is the result of poverty, lack of education and opportunity, and oppression. All of the Muslims who have engaged terrorism against the West; Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Hasan, Umar Abdulmutallab, Carlos Bledsoe, just to name the more recent ones, just to name the most recent ones, have come from wealthy, educated backgrounds.

Islamophobic maybe? So there all undercover murderers waiting to strike? When you take religions out of context you are bound to feed your phobic delusions.

You must have amnesia because just around 70 years ago the Germans were wiping out 'inferior races by the millions. Even the liberal Dutch were committing war crimes in Indonesia 60 years ago that most people seem to forget. Lebanon Shatila and Sabra massacres that led to the massacre of over 3,000 innocent Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. To go further back in history the Europeans were making deals with the Mongols who ravaged the Muslim world leading to the death of some 30,000,000 people, and that's a conservative estimate. Russians killed millions of its own people, send countless to Siberia and ethnically cleansed areas in the Muslim Caucasus who were in open rebellion; thats not including the recent wars in Chechnya and Afghanistan, of whom the latter cost 1.5 Million lives and left much of the rural area depopulated, mine-riddled, and poisoned. Hell, the French killed 2-4 Million of their own people during the Catholic and Protestant wars. I won't even go into Communism and the effects of bad Capitalism on 3rd world countries.

Most conflicts in the Middle East are due to bad politics. More precisely, bad post-colonial politics. Islam has lived and co-existed with other religions in the past and will continue to do so no matter what some Islamophobes might think.

 

[maenalus]

And unlike other presidents they are not restricting JOnes' (awful) free speech. He can burn the Qurans if he chooses. But, they are instead using the bully pulpit to let him and all the bigots out there the consequences of their actions (dead Americans). Should Americans be killed because of this? No. Will they be though? Yes. So of course, if you are interested in protecting the security of Americans and the safety of our soldiers in Afghanistan, you'd strongly oppose this stupidity.

Such a strange argument. Citizens back on the homefront shouldn't insult the enemy, because it could make the battlefield more dangerous for the troops.

It is why I strongly oppose moving this mosque in response to Jones's request. This would say basically an act of hate speech can be used as a ransom demand on other people and therefore allows people to think building a semi-mosque is equivalent to burning someone's religious book, thus implying that Islam and all its followers are inherently as hateful and the redneck prejudice that "Muslim=terrorist" will be given validity by this. That cannot happen.

If you think Rauf shouldn't move his building because it would be a victory for "rednecks" and "hate speech", shouldn't you be all the more concerned that people the world over are calling on Jones to cave to jihadist violence? Can that be allowed to happen?

 

[Schlosser85]

Citizens back on the homefront shouldn't insult the enemy, because it could make the battlefield more dangerous for the troops.

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".

shouldn't you be all the more concerned that people the world over are calling on Jones to cave to jihadist violence?

Burning Korans is not standing up to jihadists, it's behaving disturbingly similar to them.

America believes in religious freedom and tolerance of different beliefs. That's what sets us apart from the jihadists. If we all acted like Jones, what would be the difference between us and them? We'd both be intolerant fundamentalists who preach hatred against anyone who doesn't worship the same holy book that we do.

This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims, it's about the civilized world vs. terrorists. There are Muslims on both sides, despite what you and "Pastor" Jones seem to think.

 

[Grievous]

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".

Yet not many people care what they say might insult christians.
edit: sorry kinda off topic.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yet not many people care what they say might insult christans.

I consider myself a Christian, and I'm more offended by Pastor Terry Jones' behavior than anything a Muslim could ever say, because Jones claims to be a representative of us.

 

[Alex The Great]

I'm happy Obama seems to be all for the multi-faith centre. It's not a mosque, there are praying rooms for jews and Christians

 

[maenalus]

He's insulting 1 billion Muslims, not just "the enemy".

Turnabout is fair play. The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.

Burning Korans is not standing up to jihadists, it's behaving disturbingly similar to them.

America believes in religious freedom and tolerance of different beliefs. That's what sets us apart from the jihadists. If we all acted like Jones, what would be the difference between us and them? We'd both be intolerant fundamentalists who preach hatred against anyone who doesn't worship the same holy book that we do.

This isn't about Christians vs. Muslims, it's about the civilized world vs. terrorists. There are Muslims on both sides, despite what you and "Pastor" Jones seem to think.

Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

 

[DACrowe]

Turnabout is fair play. The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.

Such a hateful remark. You truly despise these people, which I believe is not what Christ taught to do to thy neighbor.

You find their holy book insulting, yet I can only imagine how offended you must get when feminists call the Bible offensive or when the gay community calls it homophobic.

And you know what? Parts of it are. But does that mean all Christians are homophobic or believe in stoning? You condemn literally 1/6 OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION because they are different from you. You accuse them of spreading violence wherever they go while ignoring that there are nearly 3 million Muslims in the US. Are they all violent terrorists who wish to overthrow the US? Do they have these secret rural training camps insinuated on the right wing blogosphere? Are the ones who wear the military uniform and fight (and die) in Afghanistan and Iraq less American because they are naturally inclined to violence, as you say?

The geopolitics of the Middle East and the west's strained relationship with that region over the last 200-some years as well as the rise of, yes, fundamental Islam (not that different from some parts of Christianity throughout history like the Inquisition, Crusaders, and Holy Roman Empire) has led to the cultural deterioration of the region. But to say it is due to a violent holy book is naive and trivializes the problems in that region (thus making them impossible to solve).

Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

Throughout history tyrants, despots, dictators and the like rarely encouraged the reading of books--they burned them. Horrible things have been carried out in the name of Christianity as I previously said and there was a time when clergy would burn those who published or spread the words of the Bible to the masses.

While burning a book is not the same as killing another person, societies that accept that are the kind who limit their own freedoms and intellectual curiosity and usually end up in bad places.

Again you seem to equate all Muslims as the enemy. And implying that we are at war with Islam is a redneck notion as I previously stated. This is not a religious war. America does not fight religious wars; it is why I like living here. Insulting 1.5 billion people because you are upset at a few thousand is not equivalent of FDR berating Nazis in the 1940s. For one thing, book burning was something the other side did...I mean really.

 

[Marx]

PROGRESS BEING MADE AT WTC SITE
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/10/feyerick.shadow.of.9.11.cnn?hpt=C2

It looks like it's going to be great.

 

[Schlosser85]

The Koran is plenty insulting toward non-Muslims.

And the Bible is grotesquely insulting toward women and homosexuals.

Burning a book is "disturbingly similar" to mass murder and tyranny? Even if that book is the inspiration and justification for the murder and tyranny? I respectfully disagree.

Oh please. Throughout history the Bible has been used as justification for murder and tyranny plenty of times.

Anything that can be said about the Qur'an can also be said about the Bible. In fact, they are fairly similar, as most of the major world religions are at their core, which makes the enmity between some Muslims and some Christians rather silly.

Mainstream Muslims don't believe in murdering "infidels" any more than mainstream Christians believe in murdering homosexuals or witches or disobedient children.

Your prejudice against Muslims is more obvious with every post you make, and you are blinded by it.

 

[maenalus]

And the Bible is grotesquely insulting toward women and homosexuals.

It is towards the latter, not the former.

Oh please. Throughout history the Bible has been used as justification for murder and tyranny plenty of times.

The Bible is basically neutral in regards to what form of government is the right one. Since no polity can help you save your soul, it doesn't really concern itself with such things. Therefore, Christianity is compatible with multiple forms of government, whether clerical theocracy, feudal monarchy, aristocratic oligarchy, mass democracy or constitutional republic. The Koran, on the other hand, is very much concerned with affairs of state. Islam teaches that Muslims are to rule over all the world, while granting second class status to non-Muslims.

Anything that can be said about the Qur'an can also be said about the Bible. In fact, they are fairly similar, as most of the major world religions are at their core, which makes the enmity between some Muslims and some Christians rather silly.

Except not really.

Mainstream Muslims don't believe in murdering "infidels" any more than mainstream Christians believe in murdering homosexuals or witches or disobedient children.

Christianity doesn't require the murder of anyone. Islam does require the subjugation of infidels.

Your prejudice against Muslims is more obvious with every post you make, and you are blinded by it.

I haven't pre-judged anything. I'm anti-Islam because I've looked at it and found something I didn't like.

 

[Heretic]

I'm still confused as to why having a savior eliminates all of the stuff that we now see as ridiculous about the old testament, but not the stuff that is still seen as okay. God says that his word is eternal...and yet Christians say that it is not. Then they talk endlessly about things like homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring all of the sins God mentions in the same book (Leviticus...where homosexuality is called an abomination, along with eating shellfish etc).

 

[maenalus]

PROGRESS BEING MADE AT WTC SITE
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/10/feyerick.shadow.of.9.11.cnn?hpt=C2

It looks like it's going to be great.

The memorial design is what I was expecting: a nihilistic, bizarre, cold, inhuman, postmodern travesty.

 

[maenalus]

I'm still confused as to why having a savior eliminates all of the stuff that we now see as ridiculous about the old testament, but not the stuff that is still seen as okay. God says that his word is eternal...and yet Christians say that it is not. Then they talk endlessly about things like homosexuality being a sin, while completely ignoring all of the sins God mentions in the same book (Leviticus...where homosexuality is called an abomination, along with eating shellfish etc).

I could be wrong, but I think the theology is according to both Christians and Jews, that the Mosaic laws were a special regimental deal. Particular to the time and place. That those laws were enacted for keeping the Israelites completely separate from and uncontaminated by the surrounding pagans. Some of the laws are basic, permanent rules of morality; like no stealing, no adultery, etc., while others were, again, just to distinguish the Israelites from pagans.

 

[Heretic]

Some of the laws are basic, permanent rules of morality; like no stealing, no adultery, etc., while others were, again, just to distinguish the Israelites from pagans.

Just depending on what current culture dictates, right?

Kinda like how Jesus was a warrior who took no guff back in the day when his more militant words were focused on, and now he's a peace loving hippie because Christians don't want to follow a warrior-savior anymore. That's the great thing about the Bible...you can just ignore whatever doesnt fit your current culture and the followers never realize how contradictory the book is because they never bother to read it.

 

[Schlosser85]

It is towards the latter, not the former.

Really?

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Corinthians 14:35

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy 2:12

how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
Job 25:4

The Bible is basically neutral in regards to what form of government is the right one. Since no polity can help you save your soul, it doesn't really concern itself with such things. Therefore, Christianity is compatible with multiple forms of government, whether clerical theocracy, feudal monarchy, aristocratic oligarchy, mass democracy or constitutional republic. The Koran, on the other hand, is very much concerned with affairs of state. Islam teaches that Muslims are to rule over all the world, while granting second class status to non-Muslims.

You're right that Islam was created as both a religious and governmental organization intended to create a theocratic government, but most modern-day Muslims do not practice its commands to subjugate non-Muslims, just as most modern-day Christians do not practice the Bible's instructions to kill disobedient children or to kill homosexuals and witches.

And as for the Bible not requiring anyone's death, Leviticus 20:13 states that men who lie with other men as with women must be put to death, and their blood will be on their own hands.

 

[Heretic]

The bible also says that anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. Exodus 31:15

Sounds kind of harsh for such a small crime.

 

[chaseter]

That is why Chic Fil a isn't open on Sundays. They don't want to have to kill their employees.

 

[Matt Mortem]

That is why Chic Fil a isn't open on Sundays. They don't want to have to kill their employees.

It's a good policy. It's prevented many-a-massacre

 

[Kelly]

Please move the religious discussion to the religion thread. Let's get back to the discussion of the WTC.

Thank you...

 

[Gamma Ray]

Really?

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Corinthians 14:35

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Timothy 2:12

how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?
Job 25:4

I don't see Christian or Jewish women walking around with heavy robes over their faces and bodies.

The bible also says that anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. WHOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. Exodus 31:15

Sounds kind of harsh for such a small crime.

Clearly it's not such a small crime, then? If you believe that G-d made these rules, then why would you question them? If the almighty tells you not to do something, it's probably best not to, is it not?



No matter how much people try to pit religion against religion, saying that one is no more violent than the other, the plain clear truth is that Islam is the most sensitive (a comic featuring Muhammad caused deaths? are you kidding me?), the most brutal (stoning women and children, killing anyone who supports western thought) and the coldest (joy and festivities in the streets "Palestine" and Lebanon on 9/11).

The western world is not the entity that needs to change here. It's the Islamic world that needs to begin condemning the actions of their brethren. Obviously not even close to every Muslim is an evil maniac and they should use that to prevent or at least speak out against evildoers. When the imam of the mosque can't say anything besides "Don't burn the Quaran or Muslims will murder people", it's a big big problem.

 

[Christopher Nolan]

many importan muslims in the world have spoken against islamic radicals and islamic terrorism but they dont get the attention. you can make more headlines with the bad muslims than with the good ones. that's one of the problems.

during my university time i met a girl from california who believed that islam is no good at all and all muslims are dangerous. funny that after several days she was suprised that my friend who's a muslim turned out to be a nice guy. it changed her view on the subject. yes, there are bad muslims in the world but for god's sake, get your information about the subject not only from one source. speak to muslims or imans before you judge all muslims...