Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[DarthSkywalker]

"Yeah that whole WMD/the hate us for our freedom/let's spread democracy thing? Yeah, maybe we lied about all of that. Oh well. We'll still be killing non-combatants left and right, but that's cool now, right? I mean, my bad, but better your children than our soldiers."

In the world where we are suppose to care about Americans lives, never forget what Obama's government did to Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden.

 

[Lily Adler]

My question is then, what has dropping bombs on human beings done to change anything? We don't fix anything with this, and it was never going to fix anything. The only reason we drop bombs over there is for ****ing monsters to make money. There is a very specific reason why they didn't want what we were doing over there to get out. Because there is no justification.

There justification was... ISIS. I agree that all this did was fuel the war machine and help line the pockets of those in the MIC. I think what Obama did was ultimately wrong.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

I'm sure sending drones in to kill innocent civilians will in no way radicalize the surviving civilians and prove Anti-American propaganda in the area correct.

 

[Schlosser85]

In the world where we are suppose to care about Americans lives, never forget what Obama's government did to Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden.

Snowden should be pardoned but I don't expect it to happen.

 

[moviedoors]

There justification was... ISIS. I agree that all this did was fuel the war machine and help line the pockets of those in the MIC. I think what Obama did was ultimately wrong.

I feel like that's where a lot of this vitriol comes from. "Wait, OBAMA did something wrong? Purity test!"

 

[moviedoors]

I'm sure sending drones in to kill innocent civilians will in no way radicalize the surviving civilians and prove Anti-American propaganda in the area correct.

Heresy! Trump enabler!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There justification was... ISIS. I agree that all this did was fuel the war machine and help line the pockets of those in the MIC. I think what Obama did was ultimately wrong.

And say it works. Say it bombs ISIL out of existence. What then? The next ISIL comes and we know it does. Why? Because ISIL filled the power vacuum that was left after we "destroyed" al-Qaeda. Like with that situation, whatever comes after will grow from the existing power structure. Which again, we have created over and over again. This knowledge was available in 2009. It wasn't news then, it isn't news now. This isn't a situation where hindsight was even necessary. It wasn't a difficult decision. And yet we are watching news channels in 2020, complaining about we still have to stay over there. We are living the definition of insanity.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I feel like that's where a lot of this vitriol comes from. "Wait, OBAMA did something wrong? Purity test!"

Obama and his relationship with Saudi Arabia? Perfect. Trump being more blatant about it? Wrong.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

If we're talking about filling up the power vacuum that ISIS filled after Al-Qaeda lost influence in the Middle East, let's talk about how Al-Qaeda actually came into power. The CIA literally trained Osama bin Laden, and the Mujahideen during the Soviet-Afghan War. We literally paid the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. Why? To stop "the spread the Communism" aka maintaining Capitalism as the dominant political-economic structure, and to maintain American hegemony in the Middle East.

 

[Snow Queen]

Obama and his relationship with Saudi Arabia? Perfect. Trump being more blatant about it? Wrong.

When the next Democrat makes it subtle again, alright again.

And say it works. Say it bombs ISIL out of existence. What then? The next ISIL comes and we know it does. Why? Because ISIL filled the power vacuum that was left after we "destroyed" al-Qaeda. Like with that situation, whatever comes after will grow from the existing power structure. Which again, we have created over and over again. This knowledge was available in 2009. It wasn't news then, it isn't news now. This isn't a situation where hindsight was even necessary. It wasn't a difficult decision. And yet we are watching news channels in 2020, complaining about we still have to stay over there. We are living the definition of insanity.

At the very least, I'm sure everyone in here can agree that Rambo III very much proves that American intervening in the Middle East has never had a single consequence and was an action movie setup that was good at the time and aged immensely well and it should air on TV more often.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If we're talking about filling up the power vacuum that ISIS filled after Al-Qaeda lost influence in the Middle East, let's talk about how Al-Qaeda actually came into power. The CIA literally trained Osama bin Laden, and the Mujahideen during the Soviet-Afghan War. We literally paid the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. Why? To stop "the spread the Communism" aka maintaining Capitalism as the dominant political-economic structure, and to maintain American hegemony in the Middle East.

Yeah, I should have made it clear. This filling of power vacuums left by the US goes all the way back. Which is why the attempts to justify Obama's actions are simply a partisan issue, and nothing else. Especially as we know he was getting the briefing telling him people were being murdered during these "precision" drone strikes.

The idea of a "humanitarian" exercise, turning into the systematic killing of people being the cost of doing business, is absolute insanity. Especially as any "war" over there, our government started or decided to become involved with. You can't justify actions by just saying there is a war going on.

If for Obama, the loss of American lives was most paramount for him, why did he and his administration let those most responsible slide?

 

[Sithborg]

Well, unfortuneatly for Saudi Arabia, MBS has abused his power over Kushner a tad too much. Where even Republicans are hesitant to keep selling them weapons.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When the next Democrat makes it subtle again, alright again.


At the very least, I'm sure everyone in here can agree that Rambo III very much proves that American intervening in the Middle East has never had a single consequence and was an action movie setup that was good at the time and aged immensely well and it should air on TV more often.

Aren't you glad I got you to watch Rambo III and then explained the original title card at the end?

Okay. slight detour, but actually not really. I loved Rambo growing up. All three that ever existed. Has there ever been a series of films that did more of a 180 in terms of messaging then Rambo? The first one happened, and was probably one of the most progressive films of it's era. Then the second started walking a very dangerous tightrope, but I still feel that even with all the slaughter of foreign folks, it still seemed to understand the machine was the issue. Then Rambo III happened and it's been all downhill since then.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Obama really didn't know how to translate his hope/change philosophy into the Middle East.

Libya was one of the biggest examples of a president that just went along with the establishment hawks because he assumed they knew what they were doing.

But Libya was better off under a socialist dictator than it is under warring factions of a civil war and the terrorist breeding ground Libya became.

Maybe Obama didn't want to look weak on socialist or weak on rogue nations. But compare that to Trump who coddles half a dozen dictators and no one seems to care.

 

[Schlosser85]

Georgia Democratic challengers reportedly raise almost $90 million as polls show Dems closing lead

 

[Sithborg]

Meanwhile, the GOP has to play "keep the toddler happy" in order to keep their chances.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

I definitely support this plan.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Georgia Democratic challengers reportedly raise almost $90 million as polls show Dems closing lead

I'm not going to look at a single poll from now to February. It'll be hard for my nerdy, data-loving heart, but I got burned too bad November 3 and I'm not going through that again. The BS Trump is pulling does have me cautiously optimistic, though, that it can turn off enough Republicans and outrage enough independents and non-voters to push Ossoff and Warnock over the edge into the Senate.

 

[InCali]

I definitely support this plan.

I wonder if they used to be dems. LOL

 

[InCali]

I'm not going to look at a single poll from now to February. It'll be hard for my nerdy, data-loving heart, but I got burned too bad November 3 and I'm not going through that again. The BS Trump is pulling does have me cautiously optimistic, though, that it can turn off enough Republicans and outrage enough independents and non-voters to push Ossoff and Warnock over the edge into the Senate.

I'll be PMing you all the polls I read.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Register to Vote

https://www.vote.org/georgia/

 

[CaptainWagner]

Register to Vote

https://www.vote.org/georgia/

Very happy to see Warnock highlighting the Lewis VRA. We need more word from Schumer about prioritizing bills that McConnell kept locked away in his legislative graveyard. Give these guys solid, tangible policy to run on passing.

 

[InCali]

I'm really hoping that with Trump off the ticket, the Dems can pull this off. By the time this election rolls around, the results will be certified. If Loeffler and Perdue recognize Biden as President-Elect, they'll piss of Trump supporters. If they don't, they'll look like nuts to a lot of independents and a fair amount of republicans. Even if it's only 10-20% of the repub party, that could hurt them. I don't see a good choice for either of them. Their best shot was to get 50%+ with Trump on the ballot.

The Dem turnout needs to not fall off a cliff. I don't think it will.

 

[moviedoors]

. If Loeffler and Perdue recognize Biden as President-Elect, they'll piss of Trump supporters. If they don't, they'll look like nuts to a lot of independents and a fair amount of republicans.

What are you basing that on? At best, he'll look nuts to an almost insignificant number of Republicans.

 

[InCali]

What are you basing that on? At best, he'll look nuts to an almost insignificant number of Republicans.

I base it on polls. They generally show that between 70-80% of republicans think there was something wrong with the election. Logically, that means that 20-30% don't have an issue with it. Anecdotally, those in my family who were Trump voters, think he lost fair and square.

Those numbers aren't anywhere close to insignificant; especially when you consider how close the elections were in GA. With Trump off the ballot, I think it's plausible that you'll see lower repub turnout. I think dems have more reason to vote. We'll see.