The Clinton Thread II - Part 3

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]516733[/split]

 

[Thundercrack85]

Thanks for the info.

Wow...well, that really sucks. So would an scandal like the one that the current South Korean President is going through (where she shared confidential government documents to a non-government official/civilian resulted in the civilians crying for her resignation) be something sufficient enough to have the US President resign?

In any case, jeez...I pray to God that America gets the better half of the candidates running elected as President this coming Tuesday.

No. Unfortunately, the United States has become a lot more corrupt since the days of Watergate. The Bush administration got away with things that are quite frankly, mind-blowing. They committed war crimes, spied on American citizens, ordered extrajudicial killings of US citizens, tortured prisoners, and flagrantly profiteered in war, especially Dick Cheney's company, Halliburton.

Quite frankly the Bush administration was so corrupt, that it's hard to fully wrap your head around how they got away with it. Obama has certainly been better, but he's not without some serious controversies (extrajudicial killings, mass surveillance of citizens, etc). But, the president can get away with a lot these days, as you can probably tell.

Essentially, once you reach the highest echelons of power, it's very hard for a scandal to take you down.

What kind of scandal would it take to take down a 21st century American president? Honestly, it's hard to say. It also depends on who wins.

American politics are so partisan it's hard to compare it to any other developed country. The Republican Party has gone completely mad, and may disintegrate depending on how this election turns out. With the possible exception of the Civil War, things have never been this bad. Powerful Republicans are already talking about impeaching Hillary Clinton. Note the election isn't until next week.

The Democratic Party is notoriously ineffective, so Trump, if he were to be elected, would have a lot less to worry about.

It's a very dire situation.

 

[Herolee10]

Well, um... in case things don't turn out the way that we want in this coming Tuesday, how fast does Four Years pass by again? Jeez. Yeah, when you mention all of that (some of which I wasn't aware of at all), it does make our country's future pretty bleak.

 

[DeadPresident]

When you have a moron for president four years feels like four decades.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, um... in case things don't turn out the way that we want in this coming Tuesday, how fast does Four Years pass by again? Jeez. Yeah, when you mention all of that (some of which I wasn't aware of at all), it does make our country's future pretty bleak.

I make no secret of being liberal, left of center, whatever you want to call it. And I still think Mitt Romney would have been a terrible president, who would have set back the country.

That said, I am honestly terrified of Donald Trump. He has embraced virtually all the bad policies of George W. Bush, so even if he does nothing crazy, we'll be lucky if it's just the economy that gets ruined again in four years.

But Donald Trump isn't just advocating reckless policies, proven not to work. He is a racist, a narcissist and a demagogue the likes of which we haven't seen since George Wallace. But even Wallace wasn't this unhinged or vicious. Trump constantly says crazy things, that are demonstrably untrue. Just the other day he claimed that Hillary would let 650 million people into this country. He says Obama founded ISIS. He says thousands of Muslims were in New Jersey cheering when 9/11 happened. Corruption dogs him wherever he goes. Right after this election, he's going on trial for his fake university. And then there's the molestation charges, which he denies, even though he was caught on microphone boasting about molesting women.

This man isn't misguided or crude, he is evil.

If you love your country, or give any damn about basic decency in general, for God's sake, vote for Hillary Clinton.

God knows she's not perfect, I can't stand her; but she is our only hope to keep this vile degenerate from getting his hands on a nuclear arsenal.

 

[TheCommissioner]

not to mention all of the social destruction Trump will wreak, I would expect him to

- use the DOJ to go after any press that criticizes him, the Gawker/Hulk Hogan case set a very dangerous precedent for this

- maybe not mass deportations, but there will be deportations across the board, expect video of kids getting pulled out of schools and workers getting pulled off of job sites

- he supports a 2014 bill that basically allows for discrimination under the basis of "religious freedom"

- basically any law enforcement body will become the rule of law with no accountability

 

[moviedoors]

- use the DOJ to go after any press that criticizes him, the Gawker/Hulk Hogan case set a very dangerous precedent for this

How so?

 

[summerteeth]

No. Unfortunately, the United States has become a lot more corrupt since the days of Watergate. The Bush administration got away with things that are quite frankly, mind-blowing. They committed war crimes, spied on American citizens, ordered extrajudicial killings of US citizens, tortured prisoners, and flagrantly profiteered in war, especially Dick Cheney's company, Halliburton.

War Crimes? In what way were there War Crimes? Let alone corruption in a war that was authorized by our democratically elected representatives and had broad bipartisan support (how is this corruption) they passed The Patriot Act again with broad bipartisan support from our elected representatives. That's not corruption. You may not like it but that's Democracy.

UN 687 following the Gulf War stated

[d]ecides...to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area."

combined with UN Resolution 1441 to comply with UN weapon inspectors
"[d]ecides...to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area."

Certainly gave the Iraq War legal pretext or at the very least a valid argument of legality. That's the argument the U.S. made and why they went to war. The UN Security Council reviewed it in 2003 and it was not declared an illegal war.

 

[Kyle]

Same sex marriage is going to be taken away from many states as well.

Can that happen? LA had it, then it lost it, now it has it back again.

I wouldn't be surprised if Trump tries to bring back segregation again.

Trump is a neo nazi, KKK vowing president. He scares the hell out of me.

 

[samsnee]

It would be ironic if a Trump presidency became a fascist one, and all the people who support the second amendment and its intent do nothing about it.

 

[Lily Adler]

Turning America into a totalitarian state is fine as long as I can use my hunting rifle to shoot beer cans in my backyard.

 

[Thundercrack85]

War Crimes? In what way were there War Crimes? Let alone corruption in a war that was authorized by our democratically elected representatives and had broad bipartisan support (how is this corruption) they passed The Patriot Act again with broad bipartisan support from our elected representatives. That's not corruption. You may not like it but that's Democracy.

UN 687 following the Gulf War stated

[d]ecides...to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area."

combined with UN Resolution 1441 to comply with UN weapon inspectors
"[d]ecides...to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area."

Certainly gave the Iraq War legal pretext or at the very least a valid argument of legality. That's the argument the U.S. made and why they went to war. The UN Security Council reviewed it in 2003 and it was not declared an illegal war.

You seriously want to relitigate the Iraq War? Even most of its supporters have abandoned it. It was a war, depending on your politics, either entered into due to bad intelligence, or deliberate misinformation. Regardless, this was a war of aggression. You should read an article by Benjamin B. Ferencz regarding the legality of the war. He was one of the country's chief prosecutors at Nuremberg, if you want to question his credentials.

The United States is so powerful that it is immune to international law. It can veto any UN resolution. It also not a participant in the International Criminal Court. So legally speaking, the United States will never be found guilty of war crimes by an international body. The International Commission of Jurists considers it to be a war of aggression (i.e. illegal), and so do many members of the ICC. But again, it's a moot point, since America is above international law.

That being said, even American courts consider Abu Ghraib to be a war crime. Perhaps you remember? There's more massacres than I can name, but feel free to read them about here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Worst-war-crime-committed-by-US-in-Iraq.html

https://www.globalpolicy.org/invasion-and-war/atrocities-and-criminal-homicides-.html

 

[Kelly]

If I were Clinton and she does end up winning, I would keep Bill totally behind the scenes working across the aisle quietly, and IN MY BED EVERY DAMN NIGHT....that would be a requirement.....that would be a 4 year requirement for the First Gentleman.

 

[Thundercrack85]

If I were Clinton and she does end up winning, I would keep Bill totally behind the scenes working across the aisle quietly, and IN MY BED EVERY DAMN NIGHT....that would be a requirement.....that would be a 4 year requirement for the First Gentleman.

Do they even sleep in the same room?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If I were Clinton and she does end up winning, I would keep Bill totally behind the scenes working across the aisle quietly, and IN MY BED EVERY DAMN NIGHT....that would be a requirement.....that would be a 4 year requirement for the First Gentleman.

Why are we torturing Hillary again?

 

[Kelly]

They better, so that she knows where he is every night....

BTW, that was more of a "figure of speech"....in that, she knows where her husband is.


The Secret Service should be given permission to tase him and bring him home anytime he starts getting horney...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They better, so that she knows where he is every night....

BTW, that was more of a "figure of speech"....in that, she knows where her husband is.

I know what you meant Kelly, just playing. t:

She should have 3 male staff members who job it is to know where he is at all times. Like an over protective parent, calling his phone randomly, having tracking on it, etc.

 

[Kelly]

LMAO, it's terrible that we even have to think about this.... LOL

 

[DarthSkywalker]

LMAO, it's terrible that we even have to think about this.... LOL

I know. This man was a two term President of the United States of America, and no one trust him in the least. So many expect this from him, and still the majority loves him compared to his wife, who might just be President in four days. Its sadly hilarious.

 

[terry78]

Everybody loves a pimp.

 

[Kelly]

Seriously, could you imagine this kind of talk about Laura Bush? LOL

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Seriously, could you imagine this kind of talk about Laura Bush? LOL

No, but I am trying really hard to now. Because that sounds so much more fun.

 

[Chance Jackson]

\The Secret Service should be given permission to tase him and bring him home anytime he starts getting horney...

Like the level 4 restriction of the zoldyck family. USSS agents would be required to subdue bill and bring him back to the white house lol

 

[summerteeth]

You seriously want to relitigate the Iraq War? Even most of its supporters have abandoned it. It was a war, depending on your politics, either entered into due to bad intelligence, or deliberate misinformation. Regardless, this was a war of aggression. You should read an article by Benjamin B. Ferencz regarding the legality of the war. He was one of the country's chief prosecutors at Nuremberg, if you want to question his credentials.

The United States is so powerful that it is immune to international law. It can veto any UN resolution. It also not a participant in the International Criminal Court. So legally speaking, the United States will never be found guilty of war crimes by an international body. The International Commission of Jurists considers it to be a war of aggression (i.e. illegal), and so do many members of the ICC. But again, it's a moot point, since America is above international law.

That being said, even American courts consider Abu Ghraib to be a war crime. Perhaps you remember? There's more massacres than I can name, but feel free to read them about here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Worst-war-crime-committed-by-US-in-Iraq.html

https://www.globalpolicy.org/invasion-and-war/atrocities-and-criminal-homicides-.html

I'm not arguing the War itself I'm arguing that it was not an illegal war nor was the Bush Administration rife with corruption like you claimed.

I was always against the war, it's one of the reasons why I voted for Obama in 2008 because he had opposed it. I felt they rushed into it as well. I'm of the opinion it was bad intelligence and a product of group think that led to the bad intelligence that ultimately failed us and of course not to mention Rumsfeld's handling of the occupation. As investigations unanimously found to be the case. If you want to operate on conspiracy and innuendo that's on you.

As to your point about US power in the UN I can counter that with China and Russia's power as well. The UN had established that there were consequences if Iraq continued to be a bad actor on the world stage. They did and the U.N. failed to provide those consequences time and time again because of Russian and China's self interest. Those previous resolutions provided a legal justification for the U.S. to act.

After all, that's exactly what Congress approved

It explicitly limited the use of force to two purposes: to “defend the national security of the US from the threat posed by Iraq” and “enforce all relevant UN Security Council resolutions.”

If Bush is guilty then so is HRC, so is John Kerry, so is Biden, so is Harry Reid, and Chuck Schumer.

People forget that Iraq had attempted to build nuclear reactors in the past and were bombed in the past in 1981. After the Persian Gulf War we found Iraq was building towards creating nuclear weapons and destroyed the material and the facilities. It's not like these fears came from thin air, it was time after time after time of Iraq violating agreements. Had Iraq allowed the weapons inspectors to do their job and complied with UN Resolutions things may have been different, but they didn't.

American Courts only issue with what happened in Abu Ghraib was that it did not have Congressional approval.

From Breyer's concurring opinion that was joined by Ginsburg and Kennedy

Congress has denied the President the legislative authority to create military commissions of the kind at issue here. Nothing prevents the President from returning to Congress to seek the authority he believes necessary

The ICC hasn't ruled it a war of aggression that is false statement. They say there is no clear definition of what a war of aggression is and thus cannot rule on whether it was or wasn't.

Ferencz also thinks it was illegal to kill Osama Bin Laden and he's in his 90's. As credentialed as he is.