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Discussion: The Second Amendment III

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The fact of the matter is, young children are impressionable. It doesn't matter the content or the media, if they see something that strikes their interest, their actions will, to one degree or another, incorporate it. That's why you hear little kids toss out a curse word if their parents curse a lot. It's why kids run around playing Power Rangers in the playground. Yes, most of these can and are innocent and short lived, but like with every thing, there are the outliers - the emotionally unstable person who misses the mark in terms of what is right and wrong in their actions, influenced by a life of unrestricted media and inappropriate action.

"Yes, 9.999 out of 10 kids aren't going to pick up a gun and start shooting people because they played Call of Duty, so we don't need any research or regulations!" gamers will say (and being a gamer, I would agree to an extent) but doesn't that sound an awful lot like what your news-spread pro-gun people say?

I guess my point is, anyone who blindly says "What I love isn't harmful! Look at the other guy!" is fooling themselves.
This is why I tried to make the point the other day about it all boiling down to Parenting. A Child will not, anymore, spontaneously speak Mandarin in an English household than they would express violence in a peaceful one.
 
The fact of the matter is, young children are impressionable. It doesn't matter the content or the media, if they see something that strikes their interest, their actions will, to one degree or another, incorporate it. That's why you hear little kids toss out a curse word if their parents curse a lot. It's why kids run around playing Power Rangers in the playground. Yes, most of these can and are innocent and short lived, but like with every thing, there are the outliers - the emotionally unstable person who misses the mark in terms of what is right and wrong in their actions, influenced by a life of unrestricted media and inappropriate action.

"Yes, 9.999 out of 10 kids aren't going to pick up a gun and start shooting people because they played Call of Duty, so we don't need any research or regulations!" gamers will say (and being a gamer, I would agree to an extent) but doesn't that sound an awful lot like what your news-spread pro-gun people say?

I guess my point is, anyone who blindly says "What I love isn't harmful! Look at the other guy!" is fooling themselves.
Agreed. Most people don't think what they do is harmful. Drug users use this logic all the time, because frankly they're usually less aware of whatever changes that drug has caused. They just think life is just fine because they have their drugs.

Like you say; children are impressionable. Many times the behavior that results from them watching too much violence and death is an accident. They've seen something trivialized to the point where they think the consequences are absent even in real life.

I thought about this watching TDK, and how Batman just gets up after being shot like no big deal. The movie purports him to be human despite that being a super-human feat, even with assisted body armor. That kind of stuff can be bad seen through the eyes of a child.
 
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The fact of the matter is, young children are impressionable. It doesn't matter the content or the media, if they see something that strikes their interest, their actions will, to one degree or another, incorporate it. That's why you hear little kids toss out a curse word if their parents curse a lot. It's why kids run around playing Power Rangers in the playground. Yes, most of these can and are innocent and short lived, but like with every thing, there are the outliers - the emotionally unstable person who misses the mark in terms of what is right and wrong in their actions, influenced by a life of unrestricted media and inappropriate action.

"Yes, 9.999 out of 10 kids aren't going to pick up a gun and start shooting people because they played Call of Duty, so we don't need any research or regulations!" gamers will say (and being a gamer, I would agree to an extent) but doesn't that sound an awful lot like what your news-spread pro-gun people say?

I guess my point is, anyone who blindly says "What I love isn't harmful! Look at the other guy!" is fooling themselves.

But the game is just an accelerate. Not the fire. We have to treat the fire which is the mentally unstable condition of the child. We cant restrict freedom of speech because .001% react violently due to sociopathic tendencies. Instead we treat and cure the sociopath. I agree we should keep these games out of children's hands, but permanently removing them from the market for all isnt the way to go with games, music, and movies.
 
But the game is just an accelerate. Not the fire. We have to treat the fire which is the mentally unstable condition of the child. We cant restrict freedom of speech because .001% react violently due to sociopathic tendencies. Instead we treat and cure the sociopath. I agree we should keep these games out of children's hands, but permanently removing them from the market for all isnt the way to go with games, music, and movies.
I don't think anyone suggested this.
 
Well, **** me, that actually sounded intelligent and like it might help.
I'm not too keen on his wish to ban "assault" weapons, nor the (what I see as) overzealous limit on magazine sizes, but we'll see what Congress does with it. Other than that, I'm actually really pleased with this. On many of the points, I'm disappointed it took so long for a president to do it. Overall, good job, Obama (which hurts to say, haha).

A few thoughts:

Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations. - I can't believe that this wasn't already a thing.

I'm pleased that he'll exempt sales/trades between family members from the background checks (but will offer guidance on it), though I'm cautious about that one - will inheritance allow for future banned weapons to be grandfathered in?

Better background checks and accessibility of information between institutions has always been needed, so I'm definitely happy to see that.

I think providing incentives for schools that hire resource officers is a nice compromise between the "guards on campus" and "no guards on campus" crowds.
 
But the game is just an accelerate. Not the fire. We have to treat the fire which is the mentally unstable condition of the child. We cant restrict freedom of speech because .001% react violently due to sociopathic tendencies. Instead we treat and cure the sociopath. I agree we should keep these games out of children's hands, but permanently removing them from the market for all isnt the way to go with games, music, and movies.

I agree. But look at media...how much postive stuff is out there compared to negative? Maybe instead of focusing on trying to get rid of the negative, we should incorporate more postive elements into media to sort of counter or balance out what's out there right now.

But ultimately, it's the parents job to know what their kid is watching or listening too. If they know their kid is listening to music that glorifies murder and don't do anything about it then really...they are part of the problem.
 
I'm not too keen on his wish to ban "assault" weapons, nor the (what I see as) overzealous limit on magazine sizes, but we'll see what Congress does with it. Other than that, I'm actually really pleased with this. On many of the points, I'm disappointed it took so long for a president to do it. Overall, good job, Obama (which hurts to say, haha).

A few thoughts:

Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations. - I can't believe that this wasn't already a thing.

I'm pleased that he'll exempt sales/trades between family members from the background checks (but will offer guidance on it), though I'm cautious about that one - will inheritance allow for future banned weapons to be grandfathered in?

Better background checks and accessibility of information between institutions has always been needed, so I'm definitely happy to see that.

I think providing incentives for schools that hire resource officers is a nice compromise between the "guards on campus" and "no guards on campus" crowds.

Im fine with ten rounds per mag. In hunting and sports it is a serviceable amount. And in a realistic defensive situation if you cant put your target down in ten round you need more range time or a bigger bullet. Its not like your house will be invaded by the russians. I would suggest a shotgun for most people if they are looking for a defensive gun anyways. One or two 3 inch buckshots to center mass, legs, or face will deal with almost any human threat.
 
Nor did I say anyone here did. Its just discussion of a point some in Washington are thinking.
Ah. I mean that's one of those things that gets floated out a lot yes, but there is also a reason it gets repeatedly shot down.
 
Im fine with ten rounds per mag. In hunting and sports it is a serviceable amount. And in a realistic defensive situation if you cant put your target down in ten round you need more range time or a bigger bullet. Its not like your house will be invaded by the russians. I would suggest a shotgun for most people if they are looking for a defensive gun anyways. One or two 3 inch buckshots to center mass, legs, or face will deal with almost any human threat.

That's about right. Any trainer will teach you to make each shot count. Unless, of course, you've been trained as a henchman.
 
Even in a country like the United Kingdom, which probably has the worse crime rates of any EU nation, the violent crime rate is lower than the United States.

*** There you go again, cross comparing flat crime rates with other countries. You can try to assume that every other variable (culture, societal structure, judicial system, mental health system, ethnic breakdown, education, economic health etc.) is identical, but you would be mistaken.




Yeah... and they didn't have semi-automatic assault weapons back then either. Maybe we should go back to those days...

*** :doh: Good god, trying to debate you is like banging my head against a brick wall. Assault weapons make up a TINY portion of violent crime. A TINY portion. Instead of gobbling up everything Feinstein and Schumer concoct, try actually looking at the data for once.



No that's not true since the same Constitution calls that (waging war against the government) treason. The intent of the Second Amendment was to maintain a militia of armed people that could be called up to defend the country if needed.

*** That is absolutely true. Read the Federalist Papers, written by the same people who wrote the constitution. There really shouldn't even be a debate here.



3D printed/plastic/ceramic firearms would fall under the Undetectable Firearms Act, which is up for re-authorization this year. It is illegal to manufacture a firearm without some feature that can be detected by an airport metal detector, with the exception that you are a licensed manufacturer who is fabricating one for testing. As it is right now, you don't see very many plastic guns for them to be a threat.

*** There are no plastic guns because it structurally isn't sound. To contain the pressures and energy that a firearm produces when shooting, they need to be made primarily out of metal to handle that. Even Glocks, which caused a huge scare amongst the ignorant anti-gun crowd a few decades back are made mostly out of metal. In addition, I meant 3D printed standard-capacity magazines, which people are already making to day. Don't think that once the technology becomes more common that it won't be used. I hate to say it, but your "laws" won't stop criminals from breaking said law. Not sure why I need to explicitly say that...



A lot of that is because we have a gun lobby (the NRA) that is preventing us from producing meaningful legislation that would curb that. If straw sales were prohibited, the gun show loophole were closed, and the capability of tracing fireams were restored we could make some serious inroads towards reducing those types of crimes.

*** Your meaningful legislation is not meaningful at all. It's an arbitrary ban on cosmetic features that you don't understand. Just because you say it's "meaningful" or "sensible" doesn't make it so. There is plenty of crime data to point to the ineffectiveness of these "common sense" proposals. While you may be willing to hand your freedoms in for the illusion of safety, there are many people in this country who aren't.



Like I said before, virtually all firearms are initially obtained legally. The fact that we are not allowed to trace a firearm, record the transfer of the same nor perform background checks on private sales just exacerbates the issue. The truth of the matter is that thousands of deaths are being caused by firearms in states that have lax gun laws. In fact some of your highest incidents of gun deaths occur in states with the loosest gun laws.

*** Name one crime that has been prevented due to gun registration. If you want to justify the billions to do such a thing, as well as the legitimate worry that registration will lead to confiscation, then you better have damn good evidence that it will actually accomplish something.



That's just speculation. We will have to see how effective it will be in the future.

*** You don't need to wait. There is already plenty of historical data out there. The fact you willfully ignore or dismiss it is telling.



You do noting and you get a little more than one mass shooting with an assault weapon a week and who knows how many more school shootings (there was another yesterday). We should do something since that is what most people want. Have you looked at the polls lately?

*** Given the accuracy of polls in the past, why should I care about them again? Given the mass media misinformation campaign, it's no wonder that people are ignorant of the realities. This, of course, assumes the polls are accurate. Mass shootings are incredibly rare. They also don't need "assault weapons" to be effective. I will reiterate this - the most deadly mass killings in US history were NOT committed with firearms. As somebody who has studied chemistry, I can tell you that creating homemade explosives and weapons is MUCH easier than you think. In addition, some of the worst mass shootings weren't committed with "assault weapons" to begin with. Your false solution will do nothing but hurt law abiding citizens.

...
 
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Im fine with ten rounds per mag. In hunting and sports it is a serviceable amount. And in a realistic defensive situation if you cant put your target down in ten round you need more range time or a bigger bullet. Its not like your house will be invaded by the russians. I would suggest a shotgun for most people if they are looking for a defensive gun anyways. One or two 3 inch buckshots to center mass, legs, or face will deal with almost any human threat.

Would you be willing to impose the same restrictions on law enforcement? What makes them above the average American?
 
Would you be willing to impose the same restrictions on law enforcement? What makes them above the average American?

But we can't have our masters on the same level as us peasants, then we'd be equals!
 
Would you be willing to impose the same restrictions on law enforcement? What makes them above the average American?

Not above, but certainly different. The same reason why people in the military are allowed missile launchers, tanks, flame throwers, etc. while in the line of duty.

Police officers are in a line of work that puts their lives at an exceptionally greater risk than the average American. That alone grants them exceptions in the line of duty. It also requires of them restrictions and higher standards than the average American. Police officers being allowed larger magazines while on duty, not in their personal lives, is a perfectly acceptable exception in my opinion. Police and military are granted certain exceptions, not only because of the sacrifices they are willing to make in protection of society, but because they are trained and trusted to responsibly avail themselves of said exceptions.

There are far more powerful tools available to our police officers. And far more often than not, those privileges have been used responsibly in protection of our society and its people. but, If yer paranoid of some abusive powers granted to them not equally made available to the average american, a high capacity magazine should probably be one of yer lesser concerns.
 
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There you go again, cross comparing flat crime rates with other countries. You can try to assume that every other variable (culture, societal structure, judicial system, mental health system, ethnic breakdown, education, economic health etc.) is identical, but you would be mistaken.

I have seen this reply in many arguments from gun rights advocates and I am convinced that this is straight from the NRA talking point playbook. Just keep in mind that you were the one who brought up the fallacy that violent crime in countries that had gun bans being high and I just wanted to show you that if you compare them with the United states, the incidence of violent crimes are much lower. Who said that you couldn't compare these countries since they do share very similar cultural and societal structures. People in the UK for instance listen to rock music, post messages on Facebook, use IPhones and eat Kentucky Fried Chicken (I know because I was there). They also suffer from similar crimes. If we can't compare the two because of social factors, then maybe we should adopt theirs since they have a lower violent crime rate.

Good god, trying to debate you is like banging my head against a brick wall. Assault weapons make up a TINY portion of violent crime. A TINY portion. Instead of gobbling up everything Feinstein and Schumer concoct, try actually looking at the data for once.

I do believe that God is good, but I don't think we need to bring him into this discussion. I am pretty sure he does not want us using guns anyway. Now, this is just an open discussion and i don't think you should take it so seriously as to want to bang your head against a brick wall. If you are suicidal, then seek some help immediately or refrain from posting in these types of forums.

final_weapons2.png


Although they make up a tiny portion of violent crimes, assault weapons are the firearm of choice for mass shooters. Semi-automatic hand guns and assault weapons have been used in close to 73% of the mass shootings since 1982. You can continue to bang your head against the wall while we do something about that problem.



That is absolutely true. Read the Federalist Papers, written by the same people who wrote the constitution. There really shouldn't even be a debate here.

No, that is utterly false. Do you realize that the residents of the southern states were granted amnesty after the civil war lest they be charged with treason for taking up arms against the federal government and that General Lee died without a country since he was never pardoned until the 1970's? the truth of the matter is that the only thing outside of a few vague quotes about taking arms, that the founders mentioned about gun freedoms was in Federalist Paper #29 where it said the following:

THE power of regulating the militia, and of commanding its services in times of insurrection and invasion are natural incidents to the duties of superintending the common defense, and of watching over the internal peace of the Confederacy...It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by congress..."
The only reason why they recognized the right to bear arms was in conjunction with a well regulated militia that would be needed to defend the country. If the people use their arms to overthrow the government, they would be guilty of treason as prescribed in Article 3 of the Constitution. If you think it meant anything else you are definitely misguided.

There are no plastic guns because it structurally isn't sound. To contain the pressures and energy that a firearm produces when shooting, they need to be made primarily out of metal to handle that. Even Glocks, which caused a huge scare amongst the ignorant anti-gun crowd a few decades back are made mostly out of metal. In addition, I meant 3D printed standard-capacity magazines, which people are already making to day. Don't think that once the technology becomes more common that it won't be used. I hate to say it, but your "laws" won't stop criminals from breaking said law. Not sure why I need to explicitly say that...

So you are trying to rewrite history now? Back in the 1980's the Glock company made a plastic gun (the Glock 23). This is why a law was made to ban all plastic guns.

Your meaningful legislation is not meaningful at all. It's an arbitrary ban on cosmetic features that you don't understand. Just because you say it's "meaningful" or "sensible" doesn't make it so. There is plenty of crime data to point to the ineffectiveness of these "common sense" proposals. While you may be willing to hand your freedoms in for the illusion of safety, there are many people in this country who aren't.

Oh the features are understood to make these weapons lethal when used in concert and to also turn them into virtual machine guns. I have already shown video that proves that. You are just in denial that that is the case.

Name one crime that has been prevented due to gun registration. There are plenty of examples to draw from. If you want to justify the billions to do such a thing, as well as the legitimate worry that registration will lead to confiscation, then you better have damn good evidence that it will actually accomplish something.

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/top-...albany-possessing-illegal-firearms-5502.shtml

You don't need to wait. There is already plenty of historical data out there. The fact you willfully ignore or dismiss it is telling.

There is just as much data out there saying the contrary. Let's wait and see.

Given the accuracy of polls in the past, why should I care about them again? Given the mass media misinformation campaign, it's no wonder that people are ignorant of the realities. This, of course, assumes the polls are accurate. Mass shootings are incredibly rare. They also don't need "assault weapons" to be effective. I will reiterate this - the most deadly mass killings in US history were NOT committed with firearms. As somebody who has studied chemistry, I can tell you that creating homemade explosives and weapons is MUCH easier than you think. In addition, some of the worst mass shootings weren't committed with "assault weapons" to begin with. Your false solution will do nothing but hurt law abiding citizens.

The credible polls, coming from sources like Gallup, CNN, Rasmussen, et. al. usually have a 95% confidence level. I am pretty sure that most Americans want this and only the gun lobby that don't.
 
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Obama forgot to add "Tell Eric Holder to stop giving taxpayer funded guns to Mexican Drug Cartels".
 
It warms my heart he remembers to use children in his photo-op but does absolutely **** all about armor'ing up schools. A practical solution that does not become a perpetual financial liability. You know wire mesh windows and steel frame + bolt locks.
 
Lanza breaks into a locked school through a ****** window right next to it. From then on kicking cheap doors open to kill little kids. Am I the only one who thinks a better window and some better doors could have prevented a lot of deaths, and maybe other ones in the future??? Government buildings have it, why the hell doesn't more school follow suit? Hell maybe campaign a message to do this. No need to create a law.

Or am I a window and door extremist???!!!
 
Lanza breaks into a locked school through a ****** window right next to it. From then on kicking cheap doors open to kill little kids. Am I the only one who thinks a better window and some better doors could have prevented a lot of deaths, and maybe other ones in the future??? Government buildings have it, why the hell doesn't more school follow suit? Hell maybe campaign a message to do this. No need to create a law.

Or am I a window and door extremist???!!!

No, I actually brought this up weeks ago when this happened. I think that is just 1 of the steps that needs to be taken, and taken immediately. Put it in as a part of the building of all new schools from this point, maybe Congress can NOT TAKE THAT RAISE THAT THEY may be receiving and use that money to begin replacing outside doors and windows with stronger glass, as strong as the White House has in all schools now open. Just one step, but IMO, definitely one that could slow down a gunman.
 
Not above, but certainly different. The same reason why people in the military are allowed missile launchers, tanks, flame throwers, etc. while in the line of duty.

Police officers are in a line of work that puts their lives at an exceptionally greater risk than the average American. That alone grants them exceptions in the line of duty. It also requires of them restrictions and higher standards than the average American. Police officers being allowed larger magazines while on duty, not in their personal lives, is a perfectly acceptable exception in my opinion. Police and military are granted certain exceptions, not only because of the sacrifices they are willing to make in protection of society, but because they are trained and trusted to responsibly avail themselves of said exceptions.

There are far more powerful tools available to our police officers. And far more often than not, those privileges have been used responsibly in protection of our society and its people. but, If yer paranoid of some abusive powers granted to them not equally made available to the average american, a high capacity magazine should probably be one of yer lesser concerns.

Would you say that ordinary people are in no danger of being attacked by multiple people?
 
Not above, but certainly different. The same reason why people in the military are allowed missile launchers, tanks, flame throwers, etc. while in the line of duty.

Police officers are in a line of work that puts their lives at an exceptionally greater risk than the average American. That alone grants them exceptions in the line of duty. It also requires of them restrictions and higher standards than the average American. Police officers being allowed larger magazines while on duty, not in their personal lives, is a perfectly acceptable exception in my opinion. Police and military are granted certain exceptions, not only because of the sacrifices they are willing to make in protection of society, but because they are trained and trusted to responsibly avail themselves of said exceptions.

There are far more powerful tools available to our police officers. And far more often than not, those privileges have been used responsibly in protection of our society and its people. but, If yer paranoid of some abusive powers granted to them not equally made available to the average american, a high capacity magazine should probably be one of yer lesser concerns.

The militarization of police is a serious problem. It's rather hypocritical to say police should have "assault weapons", but not law abiding citizens. Either they both have 'em, or only the military has military-style weaponry.

I know police. I've seen their training. I've also seen their work. Tasering people to death. "Accidentally" shooting people. I am not impressed.
 
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