Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[wiegeabo]

After doing a bit of research a while ago after the massacre at the TDKR showing, there is more gun deaths in America than the whole of Europe per annum. A lot more. Can't remember the exact figures but it was something like 10,000 in America and 300 in Europe. Not exactly a small margin. It's a real issue that needs to be confronted, not shrugged off as hippy liberals whinging. Changing the gun laws isn't the only thing that needs to be done. It's a cultural thing.

And what percentage of those were done with illegal firearms that gun laws will have no effect on?

 

[enterthemadness]

After doing a bit of research a while ago after the massacre at the TDKR showing, there is more gun deaths in America than the whole of Europe per annum. A lot more. Can't remember the exact figures but it was something like 10,000 in America and 300 in Europe. Not exactly a small margin. It's a real issue that needs to be confronted, not shrugged off as hippy liberals whinging. Changing the gun laws isn't the only thing that needs to be done. It's a cultural thing.

Um, in Great Britain, there are up there in crime violence and robberies. Even with a Gun Ban. And America while #1 in Gun ownership, and actually 28th in the world in Gun Violence. In fact, in the EU, England is #1 in crime.

 

[Rum Runner]

I'm not sure. But that is why I said it isn't just as simple as changing the gun laws. There is a gun culture in America that has been bred for years and years that makes deaths more common. Guns are viewed as cool in America from my experiences. People want them not necessarily for protection, but just to say they've got a really cool gun. I'd imagine that if every country in Europe legalised guns, there still wouldn't be 10,000 deaths per year.

 

[wiegeabo]

What's the gun policy in Glasgow? Which, only a couple of years ago, was declared the homicide capital of Europe.

 

[Rum Runner]

Um, in Great Britain, there are up there in crime violence and robberies. Even with a Gun Ban. And America while #1 in Gun ownership, and actually 28th in the world in Gun Violence. In fact, in the EU, England is #1 in crime.

The fact still remains. America has a population of around 350 million. You combine the major countries of Europe. The UK, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal. That comes to around 350 million. Yet in America there is 10,000 gun related deaths. Yet in Europe, roughly the same population, only 300. If you can't see there is a serious issue here, you're living in la la land.

 

[Rum Runner]

What's the gun policy in Glasgow? Which, only a couple of years ago, was declared the homicide capital of Europe.

And yet that still probably amounts to about 100 deaths.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I don't know about you, but I think it's utterly ridiculous to think that the right to defend yourself and your family could EVER be considered "archaic". I'd like to see the reaction of people who've been unfortunate enough to have to use a gun to protect themselves if you were to tell them that. Law Enforcement doesn't stop crime. It punishes crime. Sure, it does its best to prevent it, but it can't stop it. A cop driving to your rescue is not going to be able to stop an intruder when their still several miles away. It is YOUR responsibility to protect YOURSELF and your family. If you don't want to do that with a gun, that's your call, but how dare you think you can tell another person how to protect their own?

You also are completely ignoring the one of the main reasons WHY the founding fathers included the 2nd Amendment: it was not just to protect one's self from criminals, but to insure that the citizens had the ability to protect themselves from the government should it ever take a wrong turn. Alex Jones may be a crazy gun nut, but he makes a very valid point about this.

 

[enterthemadness]

The fact still remains. America has a population of around 350 million. You combine the major countries of Europe. The UK, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Portugal. That comes to around 350 million. Yet in America there is 10,000 gun related deaths. Yet in Europe, roughly the same population, only 300. If you can't see there is a serious issue here, you're living in la la land.

Look, I'm a Libertarian, I believe in the 2nd Amendment. Do I own a gun? No, I'm a moody guy and have no desire of owning a gun. The only time I really think of guns is in video games. Is there a problem with America? Yes. But we don't need Gun Control. I don't trust this Govt with Gun Control. Background checks sound good on paper to get any type of gun, but I have zero faith in the two party system not going all ''evil' with the laws.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Sadly, this does happen.

Woman's husband is shot while on hold
http://www.newson6.com/story/191932...-with-911-while-watching-her-husband-get-shot

Students carjacked and tossed into trunk - put on hold
http://savannahnow.com/latest-news/2010-04-26/911-call-help-during-carjacking-put-hold#.UO29AHfhd8E

Elderly woman dies in fire when put on hold
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330191,00.html

And others:

http://www.texaswatchdog.org/2011/0...san-antonio-911-put-on-hold/1300113573.column
http://eaglerock.patch.com/articles...oman-in-distress-is-put-on-hold-for-9-minutes
http://news.yahoo.com/video/stlouis...ut-on-hold-due-to-understaffing-30846719.html
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2012/07/wfaa_at_about_1230_am.php

I was about to say, because I know people who actually have been but on hold in life or death situations.

 

[wiegeabo]

I'm not sure. But that is why I said it isn't just as simple as changing the gun laws. There is a gun culture in America that has been bred for years and years that makes deaths more common. Guns are viewed as cool in America from my experiences. People want them not necessarily for protection, but just to say they've got a really cool gun. I'd imagine that if every country in Europe legalised guns, there still wouldn't be 10,000 deaths per year.

The gun culture has little to nothing to do with the use of illegally obtained guns in crime. They're obtained to help commit the crime, not because guns are cool.


If the goal is to radically reduce gun crime, then the effort should be put towards a massive collection and destruction of illegal guns, and stoppage/reduction of guns smuggled into the country.


If the goal is to reduce the relatively rare mass shootings, then the effort should be put towards changing the way we view, recognize, and treat mental health issues, and the proper regulation, tracking, and training (but not banning) of guns for legal use by noncriminals.

 

[Spider - Man]

Many people will tell you that firing a warning shot is not wise at all. First of all if you fire it in the air, it's going to come down somewhere and it could hit someone.

Yes, dino, if something goes up, it is going to come down somewhere. It's called the law of gravity.

I remember when I was around high school age there was a member of my church, a young girl, who was paralyzed by a bullet of which ballistics test concluded could have been fired from 3 miles away. Although they were never able to find the shooter, that could have easily been the round from a warning shot.

It could also been from the Red Baron. How old are you exactly?

Even if one were to fire the round safely into the ground you could be guilty of reckless endangerment.

To what, an earthworm?

Even showing the weapon to the attacker or mentioning that you are armed is not the safe thing to do.

Yes I would run downstairs and show the intruder my gun...

Another anecdote, I also had a friend, who's son was a serif's deputy. While off duty with his girlfriend he got into an argument on the street with another driver. He showed the other driver that he had a gun as well as his badge and drove off. The other person caught up with him at the next light and pointed a pistol at him shouting "I've got one of those too". The driver fired a round at the car, but luckily it hit the door jam and ricocheted across the roof exiting on the passenger side of the car. The assailant drove of and left the sheriff with a $3000 car repair.

So the guy shot point blank and missed and then the deputy just let him drive off. Ok. That would definitely be some evidence for banning idiocy. Of course some comments in this thread also have that covered but anyway.

That's doubtful since many criminals can legally purchase firearms through private sales. Private owners are not required to perform background checks so it's perfectly legal and that is how the purchase weapons.

Many but not all. And yes, what it all comes down to is that it is legal. I guess you'll just have to find some way to live with it. Perhaps by making ludicrous arguments for your absolutist POV.

If you don't have uniform regulation I could see that happening since the criminals could just go to some other jurisdiction where they can obtain a firearm legally (that's what is happening in Chicago). It would be a different story if there was a national standard.

You need to go back and read my post. Your response makes no sense in the context of it.

[/quote]
With a cell phone.[/QUOTE]

And you say I'm the one who isn't serious about protecting my family.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well of course there are going to be more gun deaths in America than Europe. Most Europeans aren't allowed to own firearms (most of their governments also evolved out of a feudalistic model, in which the average citizen never had that right).

It's hard for 20,000 Europeans to blow their own brains out when most of them can't own guns.

 

[Rum Runner]

I don't know about you, but I think it's utterly ridiculous to think that the right to defend yourself and your family could EVER be considered "archaic". I'd like to see the reaction of people who've been unfortunate enough to have to use a gun to protect themselves if you were to tell them that. Law Enforcement doesn't stop crime. It punishes crime. Sure, it does its best to prevent it, but it can't stop it. A cop driving to your rescue is not going to be able to stop an intruder when their still several miles away. It is YOUR responsibility to protect YOURSELF and your family.

You also are completely ignoring the one of the main reasons WHY the founding fathers included the 2nd Amendment: it was not just to protect one's self from criminals, but to insure that the citizens had the ability to protect themselves from the government should it ever take a wrong turn. Alex Jones may be a crazy gun nut, but he makes a very valid point about this.

Look, I'm a Libertarian, I believe in the 2nd Amendment. Do I own a gun? No, I'm a moody guy and have no desire of owning a gun. The only time I really think of guns is in video games. Is there a problem with America? Yes. But we don't need Gun Control. I don't trust this Govt with Gun Control. Background checks sound good on paper to get any type of gun, but I have zero faith in the two party system not going all ''evil' with the laws.

You have the right to defend yourself and your family. Of course you do and of course you should. But why do you need a gun to do that? No one in Europe feels they have to own a gun to feel safe. Ask yourself why that is.

And the government thing? I think that's part of the problem too. Why all the paranoia? And even if the government did do some nasty things, what will happen? A civil war again with a bunch of home owners with their rifles and pistols vs the us army? That'd be insane and it will never happen.

 

[Rum Runner]

Well of course there are going to be more gun deaths in America than Europe. Most Europeans aren't allowed to own firearms (most of their governments also evolved out of a feudalistic model, in which the average citizen never had that right).

It's hard for 20,000 Europeans to blow their own brains out when most of them can't own guns.

And that's exactly my point. If gun control was stricter, it is a step in the right direction to lower the amount of gun related deaths.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You have the right to defend yourself and your family. Of course you do and of course you should. But why do you need a gun to do that? No one in Europe feels they have to own a gun to feel safe.

And the government thing? I think that's part of the problem too. Why all the paranoia? And even if the government did do some nasty things, what will happen? A civil war again with a bunch of home owners with their rifles and pistols vs the us army? That'd be insane and it will never happen.

As someone who has lived in Europe... speak for yourself. Not all European countries have English gun laws (thank the God I don't believe in).

And yeah, it's not like armed civilians can taken down an oppressive government... it's not like that happens every year.

You can't accuse people of being paranoid of someone taking their guns away, when you (or at least, a lot of people on your side), want to do just that.

 

[Thundercrack85]

And that's exactly my point. If gun control was stricter, it is a step in the right direction to lower the amount of gun related deaths.

That's true. But you do have to take a few things into account none of these other countries have going for them... there are more guns in America than people. And it's been that way since the country was founded.

You can pass all the gun laws you want, but as long as there are more than 300 million guns in circulation, it won't make a dent.

You could try to take them away, and people have, but you would fail.

 

[Rum Runner]

I've lived in America. Lived in California for 8 years. My mother is American. I wasn't paranoid at all. I didn't feel the need to arm myself. And I've also lived in one of the worst areas of London. Never felt the need to own a gun. It's unnecessary.

I'm accusing people of being paranoid about everything. When ever I see the slippery slope argument I have to laugh. Owning a gun isn't the way to fight off that paranoia.

 

[Figs]

I've lived in America. Lived in California for 8 years. My mother is American. I wasn't paranoid at all. I didn't feel the need to arm myself. And I've also lived in one of the worst areas of London. Never felt the need to own a gun. It's unnecessary.

I'm accusing people of being paranoid about everything. When ever I see the slippery slope argument I have to laugh. Owning a gun isn't the way to fight off that paranoia.

Where did you live in California?

 

[terry78]

Round and round we go.

 

[Rum Runner]

Where did you live in California?

Compton.

lol no seriously San Francisco.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I've lived in America. Lived in California for 8 years. My mother is American. I wasn't paranoid at all. I didn't feel the need to arm myself. And I've also lived in one of the worst areas of London. Never felt the need to own a gun. It's unnecessary.

I'm accusing people of being paranoid about everything. When ever I see the slippery slope argument I have to laugh. Owning a gun isn't the way to fight off that paranoia.

And you have a right to be unarmed. But if you're that guy in London whose house or shop is being looted and razed like we saw on international TV in 2011, you'll be happy you have more than a... well what can you own in London for self-defense? Nothing. Because you have no right to self-defense.

 

[Spider-Who?]

You have the right to defend yourself and your family. Of course you do and of course you should. But why do you need a gun to do that?

Why do cops, security guards, soldiers, etc use guns? Because it is the most effective way of stopping an aggressor.

No one in Europe feels they have to own a gun to feel safe. Ask yourself why that is.

Really? Do you have a psychic link with all of Europe to know this?

"As of 2003, according to the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey (PDF), "Contrary to widely-accepted national myths, public gun ownership is commonplace in most European states." The survey adds, "public officials readily admit that unlicensed owners and unregistered guns greatly outnumber legal ones."
http://www.examiner.com/article/those-peaceful-europeans-own-more-guns-than-you-think

And the government thing? I think that's part of the problem too. Why all the paranoia?

It's not about paranoia. It's about accepting the fact that terrible things can and do happen. I'm not the type of person to own a bunker and have 1000 plans in case **** hits the fan, but history shows that it's only a matter of time before the room is covered in crap. And honestly, my owning a gun is primarily for the enjoyment of the sport. I hold no paranoia, but acceptance of the fact that bad things (both personal and on a national level) can happen.

And even if the government did do some nasty things, what will happen? A civil war again with a bunch of home owners with their rifles and pistols vs the us army?

Well, you are forgetting that the National Guard is meant to protect the States, from enemies both abroad and internally, but that isn't an excuse to take any responsibility away from the citizens. And its a sure thing that (like the Civil war), the military would divide itself. Is the likelihood high? No, but that does not equate to "impossible, so let's take away all the guns!"

That'd be insane and it will never happen.

It will never happen? Within the last 80 years, here's just a few dictators who took control of their countries, disarmed its citizens and killed as many as 75 million of them:

Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Benito Mussolini
Mao Tze Tung
Kim Il Sung
Ho Chi Minh
Pol Pot
Yahya Khan
Tojo Hideki
Vladimir Lenin
Fidel Castro
Chiang Kai-Shek
Hirohito
Hugo Chavez
Saddam Hussein
Than Shwe
Islam Karimov
Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo
Kim Jong-Il
Muammar al-Gaddafi
Robert Mugabe
Omar al-Bashir

 

[Kelly]

I've lived in America. Lived in California for 8 years. My mother is American. I wasn't paranoid at all. I didn't feel the need to arm myself. And I've also lived in one of the worst areas of London. Never felt the need to own a gun. It's unnecessary.

I'm accusing people of being paranoid about everything. When ever I see the slippery slope argument I have to laugh. Owning a gun isn't the way to fight off that paranoia.

Nor does owning a gun for protection or hunting mean that you are paranoid. Just means, you have the right to own that gun and you are enjoying that right. I have the right of free speech, and I use it every day, doesn't that have an alternative meaning because I enjoy that right? I have the freedom of religion, I practice that as well, do I have a sinister motive behind that? No....I am simply practicing the rights that my constitution has given me.

I laugh at the fact that you feel the need to "accuse" people of anything on here....

 

[Spider-Who?]

Some interesting quotes I found:

“A free people ought to be armed.”
– George Washington

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”
– Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
- Patrick Henry

“Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense.”
- John Adams

“To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them.”
– George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.”
- James Madison, Federalist Paper #46

“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
- The Dalai Lama, May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times

“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn.”
- Mohandas K. Gandhi

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
- Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights

Conversely....

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.”
- Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942

“If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.”
- Joseph Stalin

“The measures adopted to restore public order are: First of all, the elimination of the so-called subversive elements. … They were elements of disorder and subversion. On the morrow of each conflict I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results.”
- Benito Mussolini, address to the Italian Senate, 1931

“All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.”
- Mao Tze Tung, Nov 6 1938

“Guns, for what?”
A response to Cuban citizens who said the people might need to keep their guns, after Castro announced strict gun control in Cuba.
- Fidel Castro

“US Senator, If I could have banned them all – ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn in your guns’ – I would have!”
- Diane Feinstein, Statement on TV program 60 Minutes, Feb 5 1995

 

[Destructus86]

You have the right to defend yourself and your family. Of course you do and of course you should. But why do you need a gun to do that? No one in Europe feels they have to own a gun to feel safe. Ask yourself why that is.

And the government thing? I think that's part of the problem too. Why all the paranoia? And even if the government did do some nasty things, what will happen? A civil war again with a bunch of home owners with their rifles and pistols vs the us army? That'd be insane and it will never happen.

Gun control does one thing. It takes guns away from people who bought them through legit means without preventing criminals from obtaining guns through illegal means.