Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[craigdbfan]

Some interesting quotes I found:

“A free people ought to be armed.”
– George Washington

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”
– Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
- Patrick Henry

“Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense.”
- John Adams

“To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them.”
– George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.”
- James Madison, Federalist Paper #46

“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
- The Dalai Lama, May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times

“Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn.”
- Mohandas K. Gandhi

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
- Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights


Conversely....

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.”
- Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942

“If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.”
- Joseph Stalin

“The measures adopted to restore public order are: First of all, the elimination of the so-called subversive elements. … They were elements of disorder and subversion. On the morrow of each conflict I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results.”
- Benito Mussolini, address to the Italian Senate, 1931

“All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.”
- Mao Tze Tung, Nov 6 1938

“Guns, for what?”
A response to Cuban citizens who said the people might need to keep their guns, after Castro announced strict gun control in Cuba.
- Fidel Castro

“US Senator, If I could have banned them all – ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn in your guns’ – I would have!”
- Diane Feinstein, Statement on TV program 60 Minutes, Feb 5 1995

It's like we're living in topsy turvy land. Pure madness when words of brutal dictators are in line with current American politicians and the words of our forefathers would be labeled as "extremist".

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It's a good thing most of those quotes are fake.

Hitler never banned guns, he in fact relaxed the restrictions on guns. Most of the quotes attributed to him were made up allies as propaganda, to further distance us from the Nazis (they have gun control...we don't).

I don't know why people quote Thomas Jefferson either. He opposed the Constitution, and has literally nothing to do with the Second Amendment.

 

[Destructus86]

I don't think the gun violence issue is purely a political issue like so many seem to base it on. When you compare the US to Europe in terms of gun violence you also need to take into account social factors, which play a HUGE part of the violence we see here in the US. In comparison we are a selfish, violent culture.

This is a social AND political issue. Gun control is an attempt by people to sweep the real causes under the rug.

This guy seems to have a good understanding about what the real issue is with gun violence.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/17/guns-mass-killings-worldwide/1776191/

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I don't think the gun violence issue is purely a political issue like so many seem to base it on. When you compare the US to Europe in terms of gun violence you also need to take into account social factors, which play a HUGE part of the violence we see here in the US. In comparison we are a selfish, violent culture.

This is a social AND political issue. Gun control is an attempt by people to sweep the real causes under the rug.

You are right about this. Most countries with heavy restrictions on guns overwhelmingly support the passage of such laws. If David Cameron said tomorrow "more gun restrictions", it would most likely be met with "Bloody good idea ole' chap" (isn't that how British people talk?).

Also, in Europe there is substantially less violence on television, in fact, there is just less television period.

When I was there I don't think I ever saw a television on, unless it was news or sports. I went into bars that didn't have any television, in fact I'd say most of them were this way.

They may love their James Bond in England, but it isn't the same as here. A country that creates a new gun touting "hero" every week.

 

[Destructus86]

You are right about this. Most countries with heavy restrictions on guns overwhelmingly support the passage of such laws. If David Cameron said tomorrow "more gun restrictions", it would most likely be met with "Bloody good idea ole' chap" (isn't that how British people talk?).

Also, in Europe there is substantially less violence on television, in fact, there is just less television period.

When I was there I don't think I ever saw a television on, unless it was news or sports. I went into bars that didn't have any television, in fact I'd say most of them were this way.

They may love their James Bond in England, but it isn't the same as here. A country that creates a new gun touting "hero" every week.

Yup, that's for sure. We are an incredibly aggressive culture and that's not a good thing.

On that article I posted one of the many factors he mentions is isolation. Many of the mass killers tended to be isolated with little to no social life. As someone who has lived isolated in the past I can EASILY see how that can lead to problems especially if there may be some mental illness in play.

I'd say culture plays a bigger part in this issue than politics by far.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Actually, while it's true that Hitler didn't restrict gun laws for Germans, he did disarm Jews, first having them register all their arms. So, Hitler did pass some gun laws.

Hitler had no need to disarm the German people, since he enjoyed wide support.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Actually, while it's true that Hitler didn't restrict gun laws for Germans, he did disarm Jews, first having them register all their arms. So, Hitler did pass some gun laws.

I hate when people say "he disarmed the Jews". Yeah. He took their clothes, sold all their earthly possessions and bulldozed their neighborhoods too. He did that to them regardless of whether they had owned a gun before or not.

Hitler had no need to disarm the German people, since he enjoyed wide support.

And they also supporting the existing gun control policies as well.

 

[Spider-Who?]

It's a good thing most of those quotes are fake.

Hitler never banned guns, he in fact relaxed the restrictions on guns. Most of the quotes attributed to him were made up allies as propaganda, to further distance us from the Nazis (they have gun control...we don't).

Key word in his quote: subject races. Not citizens. The Jews.

I hate when people say "he disarmed the Jews". Yeah. He took their clothes, sold all their earthly possessions and bulldozed their neighborhoods too. He did that to them regardless of whether they had owned a gun before or not.

§1
Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

§2
Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation.
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id14.html

I don't know why people quote Thomas Jefferson either. He opposed the Constitution, and has literally nothing to do with the Second Amendment.

Him not having anything to do with the passing of the 2nd Amendment doesn't negate his views on it. And what ever issues he had with the Constitution had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, since their ratification was several years apart (and I wouldn't call expressing issues within it after it's adoption and pushing for some Amendments him "opposing" it. He ended up taking the Constitution very literally) .

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Him not having anything to do with the passing of the 2nd Amendment doesn't negate his views on it. And what ever issues he had with the Constitution had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, since their ratification was several years apart (and I wouldn't call expressing issues within it after it's adoption and pushing for some Amendments him "opposing" it. He ended up taking the Constitution very literally) .

Ummmm, no.

He started a political party that sought to dismantle it actually. That's why he was such a controversial figure when he won the Presidency. People thought he would re-institute the Articles of Confederation.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Actually the laws passed in the late 1930's made it illegal for Jews to buy firearms. So I would count that.

Literal disarmament happened too. They just didn't bother passing a law for it.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Key word in his quote: subject races. Not citizens. The Jews.

Okay, again, what's the point?

He was doing this as part of a wider process of extermination, and he didn't just repossess guns, he repossessed everything.

Your narrowly focusing on one thing, and missing the entire context of what he was doing. In fact you're intentionally pretending his aim was one thing, when it wasn't.

He relaxed gun control overall. What he did to the Jews or other subject races was his intention from the get-go, and another thing the public largely supported.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Not really sure why we're talking about Hitler.

Hitler is a bad example, since he was a popular leader. Germans didn't start pretending to hate him until after they lost the war.

Mao would be a better example, since he had to actually conquer large parts of China.

Though really, when it comes to the tyranny argument, it works best on a local level. You don't need an oppressive federal government with an army and air force. Look at modern-day China, where entire towns are ruled like fiefdoms by crooked local officials.

 

[Hotwire]

What's the gun policy in Glasgow? Which, only a couple of years ago, was declared the homicide capital of Europe.

In 2011 Glasgow had 20 homicides or 2.85 per 100,000. In Houston, TX, a city with lots of guns owners, they had 198 or 9 per 100,000. Actually, in US cities with populations over 250,000, ALL BUT 5 had higher murder rates than the worst city in Europe.

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/...t-violent-and-depraved-city-in-all-of-europe/

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...ston-murder-rate-drops-22-percent-3991494.php

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

 

[Destructus86]

Yeah, really. Let's move away from the Hitler talk. This is not even a political issue.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Not really sure why we're talking about Hitler.

Hitler is a bad example, since he was a popular leader. Germans didn't start pretending to hate him until after they lost the war.

Yeah, pretty much.

He's also a bad figure for most discussion since the Allies went out of their way to paint everything he did as having some evil slant to it. In fact Hitler really won support because most Germans thought he was he really great leader who did lots of nice things for everyone who wasn't Jewish or part of his clique.

The real funny thing about that is that most modern countries viciously persecute an out group. Had Europe stepped in to stop our Trail of Tears we'd all be reading a very different take on our founders right now.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Have to say that it amazes me that 20,000 Americans shoot themselves dead every year...

All people talk about the are the homicide rates, but what are the gun suicide rates in say the UK?

Never realized Americans were so suicide happy.

 

[Destructus86]

To continue what I was saying before...Isolation plays a huge role in this. And we are one of the most isolated countries in the world. We spend more time texting and talking on the phone than talking to people face to face. Families spend more time with their face in front of electronics instead of actually talking. Our priorities are about us and how we can get what we want as fast as we want it.

We are screwed up as a society and wonder why things are the way we are instead of ADMITTING that we created these issues by allowing our society to become so isolated and even dare I say...anti-social.

 

[Destructus86]

Have to say that it amazes me that 20,000 Americans shoot themselves dead every year...

All people talk about the are the homicide rates, but what are the gun suicide rates in say the UK?

Never realized Americans were so suicide happy.

Yup...see what I just posted. Your post and mine are linked.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

To continue what I was saying before...Isolation plays a huge role in this. And we are one of the most isolated countries in the world. We spend more time texting and talking on the phone than talking to people face to face. Families spend more time with their face in front of electronics instead of actually talking. Our priorities are about us and how we can get what we want as fast as we want it.

We are screwed up as a society and wonder why things are the way we are instead of ADMITTING that we created these issues by allowing our society to become so isolated and even dare I say...anti-social.

I think it has a lot to do with our notion that uninhibited self-esteem is a good thing.

They say a lot of these kids, and by kids I mean teenagers, who are incredibly over-confident, specifically if it's based on nothing, reach adulthood and become cripplingly depressed. Whereas kids who were 'picked on', or often grew up with poor self-esteem, actually end up working harder and reap the benefits later in the form of happiness.

However many psychologists doubt self-esteem has much to do with success, and in fact learning to deal with being miserable or having lower self esteem is in fact not necessarily a bad thing.

If you look at gun deaths in the ages of 35 and older, it's usually a suicide death not a homocide death.

A lot of these kids grew up like the cast of Jersey Shore, then get to adulthood and realize all that hooting and hollering, getting drunk, and insisting how great they are blows up in their face.

 

[Phallic]

Have to say that it amazes me that 20,000 Americans shoot themselves dead every year...

All people talk about the are the homicide rates, but what are the gun suicide rates in say the UK?

Never realized Americans were so suicide happy.

An improvement in the mental health care system in this country would aid in that problem.

To people (*cough* dnno1 *cough*) who try to correlate guns to suicide rates, I'd recommend checking out Japan's suicide rates despite a virtual gun ban.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Okay, again, what's the point?

He was doing this as part of a wider process of extermination, and he didn't just repossess guns, he repossessed everything.

Your narrowly focusing on one thing, and missing the entire context of what he was doing. In fact you're intentionally pretending his aim was one thing, when it wasn't.

He relaxed gun control overall. What he did to the Jews or other subject races was his intention from the get-go, and another thing the public largely supported.

I'm "focusing" on the gun issue because that is the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the overall policies and actions of Hitler we can do that in an appropriate thread.

The overall theme of the post where I quoted Hitler was concerning dictators who (among other things) took away guns from those they sought to control and/or harm. You claim that he did not take away guns, but he did take them away from the Jews and other "subject races". Hitler did many things, but one of them was having Germany pass laws (as I posted before) that explicitly made it illegal for Jews to own weapons. Now why would Hitler want the Jews to be defenseless? Because he knew what he intended on doing to them, and did not want them having the ability to protect themselves.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm "focusing" on the gun issue because that is the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss the overall policies and actions of Hitler we can do that in an appropriate thread.

The overall theme of the post where I quoted Hitler was concerning dictators who (among other things) took away guns from those they sought to control and/or harm. You claim that he did not take away guns, but he did take them away from the Jews and other "subject races". Germany passed laws (as I posted before) that explicitly made it illegal for Jews to own weapons. Now why would Hitler want the Jews to be defenseless? Because he knew what he intended on doing to them, and did not want them having the ability to protect themselves.

And several dictators took over armed populaces. What about them? Do they not count? Again, it's just completely a silly point to keep harping on, especially because it's based on a bunch of fallacies.

He didn't support Gun control.

He was supported in his actions by the public.

He wasn't technically a tyrant.

None of those quotes you keep posting were his specifically.

The Germans only condemn him in retrospect.

 

[Spider - Man]

I think it has a lot to do with our notion that uninhibited self-esteem is a good thing.

They say a lot of these kids, and by kids I mean teenagers, who are incredibly over-confident, specifically if it's based on nothing, reach adulthood and become cripplingly depressed. Whereas kids who were 'picked on', or often grew up with poor self-esteem, actually end up working harder and reap the benefits later in the form of happiness.

However many psychologists doubt self-esteem has much to do with success, and in fact learning to deal with being miserable or having lower self esteem is in fact not necessarily a bad thing.

If you look at gun deaths in the ages of 35 and older, it's usually a suicide death not a homocide death.

A lot of these kids grew up like the cast of Jersey Shore, then get to adulthood and realize all that hooting and hollering, getting drunk, and insisting how great they are blows up in their face.

Well considering our current outcome based education system is all about favoring promoting kids' self esteem over actually telling them they don't know what they're supposed to, perhaps the rise in these sort of acts should come as no surprise.

 

[Spider-Who?]

An improvement in the mental health care system in this country would aid in that problem.

To people (*cough* dnno1 *cough*) who try to correlate guns to suicide rates, I'd recommend checking out Japan's suicide rates despite a virtual gun ban.

Yup. In 2011, Japan had the 6th highest suicide rate. The US was #34.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Well considering our current outcome based education system is all about favoring promoting kids' self esteem over actually telling them they don't know what they're supposed to, perhaps the rise in these sort of acts should come as no surprise.

Yeah, I would blame our education system and I guess Bush's No Child Left Behind.

Also, like you say, education is usually very broad and not very deep. So kids learn a bunch of half truths, or flat out lies, that they spend the next twenty years learning is a bunch of crap. I don't think that can be too good for someone's psyche.

Look at our Hitler discussion right now. That war is over 70 years old, and most of what is taught about him and the war is leftover allied propaganda.

So yes, education is definitely a crapshoot here.