'Distracted boyfriend' meme is sexist, says Swedish ad watchdog

[chaseter]

I don’t chastise men, at least not in those arenas. As that’s the agreement in those situations. A guy goes to stripclub for a specific experience and the strippers perform with that experience in mind. There’s mutual understanding.

It’s when that guy leaves the strip club and continues to be a trash bag to random women he encounters that I chastise him.

Also you’re making some bold claims about female worth and equality that I think are pretty ridiculous.

Please refute my claims. You can disagree all you want but I’m right. You cannot empower women’s rights for social equality and support an industry of subordination. Those women choose that career but that choice places their worth on selling their bodies to men. That’s not equality.

Secondly, teaching guys that women are paid possessions inside a brothel only fosters negative behaviors outside of the brothel. You are enabling sexism as a trade. Why foster that?

 

[Mandon Knight]

I think 'choice' in these cases maybe not a left or right, red pill/blue pill scenario. Obviously only the individual can say why she would wish to/has to pursue such an option for work, but I'd hazard a guess that it's not her number one 'career' defining wish. Placing oneself in a strip club for a man's 'entertainment' I don't think would be somebody's sole wish, I maybe wrong, and on many occasions of situations, I probably am, but I'd guess that for many women, this isn't a choice matter, it's an 'only' option concern.

Absolutely agree though on the fundamental points made in post #51 though.

 

[Flash525]

I don't 'get' pornography in any way, from a visual point of view nor from the participation 'angle' for those involved. I don't agree with it, for both genders, not just women. It depresses the hell out of me frankly. I don't access it, use it, watch it, require it or get 'anything from it' as such.

Respectfully, is this because it's a constant reminder of what you haven't got? I don't mean to sound offending by that remark either, so please don't take it that way, but one of the reasons (for a comparison) I don't attend nightclubs is because they're a reminder that my teenage years weren't all that adventurous, and if I go into a nightclub now (I'm only 31, so I'm still allowed) all I see is teenagers and early 20-something's making out with each other and having fun.

I don’t chastise men, at least not in those arenas. As that’s the agreement in those situations. A guy goes to stripclub for a specific experience and the strippers perform with that experience in mind. There’s mutual understanding.

It’s when that guy leaves the strip club and continues to be a trash bag to random women he encounters that I chastise him.

This may not apply to every guy involved, but generally the kind of man that values, or ventures into such places (at least regularly) isn't going to hold women in an equal regard anyway. It takes a certain kind of person to seek that experience.

I have some colleagues that I know have ventured into strip clubs; they're typically the sort that only crave one night stands, have topless posters/calendars up around their locker/workplace, and have a specific field of view where women are concerned. Some of these colleagues are even married, or are otherwise in relationships, and a good portion of those still have played away whilst in those relationships.

These views and mindsets kinda' go hand in hand. If you're that type of person, then maybe you just can't leave it in the club; women are always going to be considered lesser to the majority of them.​

 

[Mandon Knight]

Respectfully, is this because it's a constant reminder of what you haven't got? I don't mean to sound offending by that remark either, so please don't take it that way, but one of the reasons (for a comparison) I don't attend nightclubs is because they're a reminder that my teenage years weren't all that adventurous, and if I go into a nightclub now (I'm only 31, so I'm still allowed) all I see is teenagers and early 20-something's making out with each other and having fun.

You are not offending me dude, it's fine. No, I don't watch, use or 'need' pornography for the reasons many are making, that it's disrespectful & empty, and encourages, to me, incorrect views on both gender's roles & humanity within what is deemed to be 'love'. I get porn is not 'love' it's sex, but as my previous posts have said, I don't separate those two ideologies, I could no longer have sex with someone I've literally just met or been introduced too as I could have a cup of tea with sugar.

The thought you put forward of me 'missing out' believe me, is a world away, yes, with my 'world view' on link between only having sex with someone I love', I am going to have long periods of 'a dry life' without sex, but I hold my views strongly and wouldn't change them. I made that decision a long time ago, or rather my emotional context of my moral compass made it for me, and I hold that when I am with the person I know I am meant to be with, all will fall into place.

This may not apply to every guy involved, but generally the kind of man that values, or ventures into such places (at least regularly) isn't going to hold women in an equal regard anyway. It takes a certain kind of person to seek that experience.

I have some colleagues that I know have ventured into strip clubs; they're typically the sort that only crave one night stands, have topless posters/calendars up around their locker/workplace, and have a specific field of view where women are concerned. Some of these colleagues are even married, or are otherwise in relationships, and a good portion of those still have played away whilst in those relationships.

These views and mindsets kinda' go hand in hand. If you're that type of person, then maybe you just can't leave it in the club; women are always going to be considered lesser to the majority of them.

Agreed.
​

 

[Flash525]

You are not offending me dude, it's fine. No, I don't watch, use or 'need' pornography for the reasons many are making, that it's disrespectful & empty, and encourages, to me, incorrect views on both gender's roles & humanity within what is deemed to be 'love'. I get porn is not 'love' it's sex, but as my previous posts have said, I don't separate those two ideologies, I could no longer have sex with someone I've literally just met or been introduced too as I could have a cup of tea with sugar.

I can (and do) respect your views, but I'd think the ideologies are easily separated; one is merely fun, whilst the other allows for that emotional connection; in the case of the latter, and with those people, it's not always going to be about sex, but rather about companionship, whereas the former is, quite literally, only about sex.

Pornography, at least the way I look at it, is just fiction, or to some degree, escapism (similar in tone to strip clubs and brothels where men can go into a setting where the recipient acts interested in them, and is paid for it); no different from viewing a science fiction film or conspiracy show. It's not necessarily a real representation of true events, and the scenes shot are to appease the viewer.

That's not to say I'd promote prostitution or strip clubs; I'm kinda indifferent toward them. Who am I to tell a woman what they can, or cannot do? The sex industry is a big one, and some women, quite a few in fact can make a lot of money through it. It's morally questionable, sure, for all parties involved, but in the world we live in, it's just another career (I use that term loosely) that enables them to fund their place in this world.

Think; the average person (man or woman) probably earns between £8 & £12 per hour, that's between £320 & £480 per week, and between £1280 & £1920 per month ($1691 & $2536). An escort (that doesn't specifically need to engage in sexual activities) can earn £150 per hour. If an escort worked two hours a week, she'd be about the same as your lower wage implied above. Throw in sex, and you're probably talking double. It's easy money for those involved, they've just gotta' live with themselves, and seemingly many of them do.

The thought you put forward of me 'missing out' believe me, is a world away, yes, with my 'world view' on link between only having sex with someone I love', I am going to have long periods of 'a dry life' without sex, but I hold my views strongly and wouldn't change them. I made that decision a long time ago, or rather my emotional context of my moral compass made it for me, and I hold that when I am with the person I know I am meant to be with, all will fall into place.

Nothing but respect for you here. Might I ask though (mere curiosity, you don't have to answer by any means) but what is the reason or what was the purpose behind your change of mind? Presumably you've not always been this way? You've stated that you made that decision long ago - presumably you had a different view, or held a different decision prior to that?

 

[Da-Scribe]

Please refute my claims. You can disagree all you want but I’m right. You cannot empower women’s rights for social equality and support an industry of subordination. Those women choose that career but that choice places their worth on selling their bodies to men. That’s not equality.

Secondly, teaching guys that women are paid possessions inside a brothel only fosters negative behaviors outside of the brothel. You are enabling sexism as a trade. Why foster that?

Sex workers deserver better industry standards, I don't deny that. Men need better education, I don't deny that either. But a woman still deserves to have dominion over her own body and the ideas that she loses that once she agrees to accept payment, that by commodifying her sexuality she then relinquishes her claims to equality, seem wildly un-feminist to me. It makes this weird assumption that you can't be equal when you make money from sex, as if sex is innately more valuable than say a musical gift. As if you can sell your guitar skills, because that's talent, but your sexuality is sacred and belongs to feminism as whole.

You're still telling women what to do with their bodies. You realize that right? You're still saying, "You must use your body in this way in order to qualify for equality." That doesn't seem backwards to you?

 

[Mandon Knight]

Nothing but respect for you here. Might I ask though (mere curiosity, you don't have to answer by any means) but what is the reason or what was the purpose behind your change of mind? Presumably you've not always been this way? You've stated that you made that decision long ago - presumably you had a different view, or held a different decision prior to that?

There's been no change of mind as such, I've always lived with that level of view, the decision 'long ago' was just that, that I wanted to only have sex with someone I loved and not 'play about', it's not in my 'make-up' as a person nor in my sexual DNA either.

I didn't have a girlfriend in my teens or 20's, I had friends that are girls in that time (and remain so) but I was 30 until I had first girlfriend. Have I missed out ? My life was during teens and 20's far too complex and unstable for a relationship and I was hurt badly at 16 and so I switched off, vowing I wouldn't be hurt again and that I wasn't worthy of relationships. Until I met someone I believed would change that, it wasn't what I anticipated or thought it was going to be, but at this stage of my life, there is a conclusion to this story that will map itself out, one way or another.

 

[Flint Marko]

Secondly, teaching guys that women are paid possessions inside a brothel only fosters negative behaviors outside of the brothel. You are enabling sexism as a trade. Why foster that?

Your assumption that brothels teach men that women are "possessions" is kind of the problem in a nutshell. If a brothel were run properly, like any other business, it wouldn't be that way. If I go to a therapist for an hour I'm not going to walk out of that room thinking the therapist was my "paid possession", I'm going to think it was a mutual exchange of goods and services like any transaction.

In short, I don't see how brothels "enable sexism as a trade". That's perpetuating a puritanical, antiquated view of sex that is telling people when and how they should have sex based on your moral code.

 

[Flash525]

Treating a brothel as any different from that is sort of the problem in a nutshell. That's perpetuating a puritanical, antiquated view of sex that is telling people what they can and can't do with their bodies based on your moral code.

Into dark territory we go.

 

[Donner]

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the book. And the countries that legalize it also see lower rates of sexual assault and harassment. Legalization allows for the safety of the women through STD testing, security at the brothels, labour rights, etc etc. Also, it would lift a huge burden on the criminal justice system because cops wouldn't waste their time busting people who are consenting to a legal transaction.

I would ignore chaseter's opinion on this. He's arrogant with his views about women.

 

[chaseter]

I’m sure you would be proud if your kid or spouse was a prostitute right? You would support that?

You have a twisted view of personal worth if you advocate selling your body...morality aside. You aren’t empowering anyone by making their body a commodity. You are literally boiling down their worth to fit your fantasy. It’s disgusting. You picking from a lineup to “use” based on physical appearance is gross from a human level. The bending and twisting of what you consider equal and empowerment is sad.

Countries that legalize murder would see a decrease in illegal killings. If that’s your case to justify prostitution then let’s have the Purge. Let those deviants get 364 days of bad out in 1 day.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I’m sure you would be proud if your kid or spouse was a prostitute right? You would support that?

There's a difference between supporting a profession vs. supporting someone's right to make choices for his or herself. Would I support my daughter's or partner's right to choose what they do with their bodies? Yes and unflinchingly. I can say that factually as I dated a girl who considered becoming a stripper.

You have a twisted view of personal worth if you advocate selling your body...morality aside. You aren’t empowering anyone by making their body a commodity. You are literally boiling down their worth to fit your fantasy. It’s disgusting. You picking from a lineup to “use” based on physical appearance is gross from a human level. The bending and twisting of what you consider equal and empowerment is sad.

Why say "morality aside" and then immediately get into morality? At any rate, you've basically described any job. You are paid and evaluated based on how skillful you are at some set of predefined criteria. It's no more disgusting for someone to take advantage of their sexuality as it is for me to flaunt how great I am at VLOOKUP in Excel.

If you want to criticize men for treating these women as less than human, then that's fair. But don't punish women and their right to choose. Otherwise you're just saying, "Women shouldn't do this, because men behave irresponsibly." We should be working on the men.

Countries that legalize murder would see a decrease in illegal killings. If that’s your case to justify prostitution then let’s have the Purge. Let those deviants get 364 days of bad out in 1 day.

You're likening legalizing sex work to legalizing murder. That's pretty reprehensible.

 

[moviedoors]

My god. Likening reasonable, regulated sex work to the Purge. Insane.

 

[Lily Adler]

Well now this thread is a party.

 

[Flint Marko]

Countries that legalize murder would see a decrease in illegal killings. If that’s your case to justify prostitution then let’s have the Purge.

Funny you brought up murder, legalizing sex work is always followed by a notable decrease in murder because once you de-stigmatize sex work people start treating them as people instead of easy targets that the cops mostly ignore.

Let's see you fly into a blind old-man rage about that.

 

[moviedoors]

Funny you brought up murder, legalizing sex work is always followed by a notable decrease in murder because once you de-stigmatize sex work people start treating them as people instead of easy targets that the cops mostly ignore.

Let's see you fly into a blind old-man rage about that.

So legalizing sex work reduces assault, rape, and murder. Additionally, legalizing it gives those workers standards, health care, retirement accounts, and accountability from the clients.

But let's keep shunning and condemning it because it offends chaseter's sensibilities and he wants to pretend like he's the REAL feminist here.

Yeah, and liberals are the snowflakes.

 

[Handsome Rob]

And legalizing prostitution is also associated with in sex trafficking.

Harvard link

Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.

There are more findings, but I thought that was the most relevant one.

If you want to argue whether the benefits of legalized prostitution outweigh the negatives, fine. Don't pretend, however, that there are aren't some serious negatives associated with legalizing prostitution, both to the prostitutes as a whole as well as society.

There are . . . and, I'm one who tends toward the "legalize it" side of the argument, my feelings on its immorality notwithstanding.

 

[Flint Marko]

No one was saying there aren’t consequences? Everything, especially sweeping legal changes like that, have far-reaching implications. It’s just fairly safe to say based on current data that legalizing sex work is more of a net positive.

 

[moviedoors]

No one was saying there aren’t consequences? Everything, especially sweeping legal changes like that, have far-reaching implications. It’s just fairly safe to say based on current data that legalizing sex work is more of a net positive.

Exactly. I’m not (and I’m gonna go ahead a speak for Elektra here) arguing that it’s perfect, but that it is BETTER than our current system.

 

[Donner]

It'll never go away. So trying to stop women from selling their bodies for sex on the grounds of feminism, morality or some other BS excuse is extremely futile.

The best course of action is legalization, education, and throw in some fancy brothels or something. Jazz it up.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

...

...

...

Didn't...

I mean...

Didn't this thread start off basically with pearl clutching outrage about a single Swedish group trafficking in pearl clutching outrage and NOW, somehow we're debating legalized prostitution?

...

...

...

Guys... I think we may need to start to be honest with one another and ourselves and just say that these ****ing arguments are almost never about what we claim they are. This thread is a classic exhibit A.

 

[Brutikus]

Like I said in another thread "We live in the age of outrage"

 

[Flash525]

I’m sure you would be proud if your kid or spouse was a prostitute right? You would support that?

There'd certainly be a difference of opinion or perspective, and a father/boyfriend wouldn't have to like it, but they should support it if they respect the person wanting to do it.

You have a twisted view of personal worth if you advocate selling your body...morality aside. You aren’t empowering anyone by making their body a commodity. You are literally boiling down their worth to fit your fantasy. It’s disgusting. You picking from a lineup to “use” based on physical appearance is gross from a human level. The bending and twisting of what you consider equal and empowerment is sad.[/QUOTE]To some degree I agree with what you're saying, but who is it that decides what morality is? You? Me? Them? Society?

 

[Flash525]

There's a difference between supporting a profession vs. supporting someone's right to make choices for his or herself. Would I support my daughter's or partner's right to choose what they do with their bodies? Yes and unflinchingly. I can say that factually as I dated a girl who considered becoming a stripper.

No qualms at all?

If you want to criticize men for treating these women as less than human, then that's fair. But don't punish women and their right to choose. Otherwise you're just saying, "Women shouldn't do this, because men behave irresponsibly." We should be working on the men.

Quoted for relevance.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

No qualms at all?

Quoted for relevance.

I don't buy it mate. As long as it's other women and not their partner/relative then they don't mind.

Being realistic the demand for sex will never go away. I think de-criminalising it so it's regulated and safe to practice is the most sensible approach and of course cynically it would be another revenue stream. The same can be done for drugs. Ultimately though, there'll always be demand for sex, it's a primal instinct. It can't be treated the same as drugs in which you can seek to identify and treat the underlying causes. So the best way of dealing with it is bringing it to the surface and not keeping it underground which is where it'll remain if illegal. Of course we'd like women to aspire to better careers and some do. Plenty of female students have temporarily become strippers or escorts to fund their further education and pursue their dream career path. But as always the focus is unduly placed on women rather than men (seeing as they're the ones who are responsible for the 'demand' side of things). I think the availability and scale of pornography does promote unhealthy views on sex and gender roles and only further certain negative stereotypes. And a guy who frequents a stripper bar or brothel is not really going to be pro-women's rights nor will they see them as anything more disposable pleasures, rather than meaningful pursuits. For me you need to start educating boys very young and not be prudish about sex education and hopefully change attitudes when they're most impressionable and open to learning not when they're older and usually too late to do anything about.