Sequels Do we really have that many villains left?

[Vaportrail]

I looked up the SamRuby list of villains today. I used this to discuss the Clone Saga and it's potential, but upon reading it I came to another thought as well.

We've used up most of the really good villains. Kinda like how Batman started to suck after the second one? The villains were interesting, but poorly done. They packed too many into a movie to make up for the faults in the 'realized' character.

Say we have the three movies, they'll be made no matter what. This is pretty much assured. Despite the 'Villain Eliminations' taking place here, what would rationally be the remaining villains that wouldn't send the Spidey saga into a downward spiral for the remainder of it's duration?

He's doing too well on his first serious run for him to go the way of the old Batman flicks.

The list: http://www.samruby.com/villtoc.htm
Many of these villains just aren't cinematic villains, though. They're characters meant to fill an issue and delay Spider-Man from reaching his current goal in a single issue. That cuts about half of them right there.

Also, I've knocked off the villains who have been or will be used for other Marvel characters, plus the obvious villains who we've already seen.
You KNOW none of them have a good reason to come back. Stop trying.

The Potential Villains:

Kraven & Calypso
Every time I see them, the whole piece feels jungle-themed. He's a classic villain though, and should not be forgotten.
Black Cat
Yes, I know she's not a villain. If I recall, there was a misunderstanding in the very beginning of her relationship w/ Spidey. I have this feeling that either Gwen Stacy will become the Black Cat, or Felisha Harding is going to wind up being one of her girlfriends who acquires a taste for vengeance after Gwen's demise.
Carnage
Well, Eddie's dead so that'd change the origin story a bit. The symbiote is presumed dead, unless one of those writhing bits after the explosion managed to crawl away. I'm thinking we'll see him in the Venom film.
Chameleon
Not in his own movie, but I think this could be done fairly realistically. More 1960's Spidey/ Mission:Impossible than the 90's cartoon version. I think he usually worked with or around Kingpin storylines, but oh well.
Electro
Obviously the costume would have to change, but all of them have really. He's your standard energy-shooting villain, but he definitely works. The issue with Spidey's insulated suit and X-Man was intense. Still, I don't see him as being done without the Sinister Six or another villain.
Jackal
I don't think we need to see the WHOLE Clone Saga. Just the best parts. And those primarily revolve around the person responsible, and his love for the clone Gwen.
Though, if this were to be a film, I would expect to see somewhere in there both Kaine and the Scarlet Spider, even if they get killed off.
The Jury
Alright, these guys are filler villains. I admit it. Their three-issue arc where they catch and 'convict' Spider-Man was pretty great though. They'd have to find a new reason, since Venom hasn't had the time to cause all the trouble they discuss. I doubt they'd get their own movie, if a role in one at all, but it would be nice to get one of these storylines where people who have it in for Spidey get their voices out there.
Lizard
We all know he's been set up to be done. He'll prolly be in 4, really. Honestly, I'd like Connors to know about Spidey's secret identity and even help him out with a villain for a whole movie and then have his problem come about near the end, then get a whole movie devoted to him and maybe one other villain. That way the connection the pair had in the comics would be viable, rather than the way it was forced upon us like with Doc Ock and GG.
The Rose
Prolly doesn't work without the Kingpin, but a plotting criminal with a vendetta isn't exactly a rarity at the movies. Might be a good excuse to pull out Delilah. Rawr.
Scorpion
Kind of a shallow character, and we've already had our share of insane villains. Sinister Six.
Shocker
Same. Sinister Six. I've seen him all over the place, and still know nothing about him beneath the wrist blasters.
Shriek
She was Carnage's "girlfriend", but with the "Peter Parker No More" storyline, or at least giving Peter the reverse effect from SM2, something good could come of her. I think that him taking on the burden of so much time as Spider-Man to give up his own identity for a while would be a neat way to go in one of the movies. I suppose we don't need her for this, but she was the original cause.
Vulture
Sinister Six. One of the more focal villains for Spider-Media, so I imagine he'd be pretty important to the group. I know the TV show had him do a thing where he'd 'absorb youth'. Not sure about that, but I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Good villains, not cinematic:

Mysterio - Ugh. I've never really liked him, but I appreciate his place in Spidey-history. I think this is a little too surreal for Raimi's established style.
Cardiac - Maybe I don't know him well enough, but I don't think he'd stand up well. Kickass design, though.
Rhino - If you wanna see stuff like this, go watch 'Hulk'. Not enough character behind this guy, though I did like the issue where he goes on a rampage just so he can feel something underneath his armored skin. The thing that makes this work though, is that Spider-Man has already known him for years as featured villain. The film would have to force that connection yet again. Nope.
Hobgoblin - I'm done w/ Goblins. There's no Osborns left to blackmail, so this defeats his purpose.
Demogoblin - I'm done w/ Goblins.
The Enforcers - I especially love the sci-fi galore second wave of this crew. It'd be a fun reason for Spidey to have to bring the armor to the silver screen... but I think it's still too much. The Jury is a reasonable concept based on the GG technology featured in 1 and 3. These guys are just really out there.
Hammerhead - You'd need a whole "Spidey takes on the mob" film for him to be included. Tombstone would go into it also... but I just don't see it working. That definitely would be a spiral move.
Judas Traveller - I don't know much about him, except that he had a big role in the Clone Saga era. I have one, maybe two issues that feature him. He sort of brings an element of magic which I'm not sure would be suitable for the film. Very cinematic, but not for our current series.
Morbius - He was just an emo punk in the TV show, before emo was even a word. I don't want to go watch a Spider-Man vampire film. The first couple of Blade movies were hard enough to sit through.
Silvermane - One of Spider-Man's old enemies has his consciousness transferred to a robot shell. Cool. The comic issue was great. It ain't gonna happen. Hopefully we'll still get Black Cat though.
Smythe, Spider-Slayers - You could do this w/o the Kingpin. Make it a personal grudge. I think it's the cartoon that ruins it for me, though. Our Air Force would be shooting these things down before Spidey does.
Spidercide
I love this guy. I don't really know why, he's such a corny concept.
Tarantula
This would be a cool character for Spidey to have an acrobatic fight where he wasn't the only one with actul acrobatic skills, but I think that Tarantula doesn't really work in a universe where Spider-Man is the only established superhero. How uncreative can one guy be?


I feel like I'm forgetting some of them.
Regardless, the first 3 films' villains are tough acts to follow.

We will see the Lizard. Raimi's interested in the Sinister Six, as I would expect someone from his generation of comic readers to be. Hell, I got into Spidey just before the Clone Saga, and I love the S6.

Cut it down to basics. There's three films left. (A friend of mine once said "They could make 20 Spider-Man movies and I'd still go see them all"), and while I concur, let's just plan on the six for now. Here's my theory.
SM4: Lizard and Kraven is who I keep hearing. Bleh, alright. I hope Kraven is portrayed more like the first appearance of the Grim Hunter though. Bring the jungle to Manhattan, don't take Spider-Man to the jungle. I beg you.
SM5: Sinister Six. Six of those above villains, probably including Electro, Scorpion and Vulture for sure. Potentially Mysterio, Shocker and the Chameleon. I do NOT expect Sandman to come back, tho I wouldn't put it past Hollywood. Doc Ock is dead. Deal.
I think this would be a good place for them to do the Captain and/or Gwen Stacy storyline though, along with Black Cat (he'll need the help) and a 'villain-specific' costume for Spidey. "Insulated Spider-roos" ftw.
SM6: No clue. I'm rooting for the Jackal though, especially if Gwen is killed off in SM5. If the Venom film doesn't do Carnage though, I'd say he's perfect for the finale so long as they keep the idea alive (kinda how we saw the Death Star in episode 2 and 3).

Really, these are the only ones I see as realistically happening.
C'mon, Raimi. Prove me wrong.

I don't know who they will pick. Villains that don't mean much to me might've really stood out to them.
We'll just have to wait and see.

Just my $0.02.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think we have plenty of great remaining villains:

Lizard
Mysterio
Kraven
Electro
Hobgoblin (I would like to see him in SM6)
Vulture
Spider Slayers (by Smythes)
Carnage (not a fan, but he is popular)
Scorpion

And on...Heck, guys like Shocker and Rhino would be good cameo villains.

Point is, at 1-2 villains a movie, they will never run out of quality villains in these movies.

 

[Spider-Vader]

I say:
Spidey 4-
Lizard
Kraven

Spidey 5-
Scorpion & Rhino
or
Mysterio & Vulture

Spidey 6-
Carnage
Electro
Venom
They can say the symbiote quickly reformed with Eddie, they escaped but Eddie was left injured..... Crazier things have happened in movies. Plus 3 villians would actually work, since we already have Venom's backstory.

 

[Vaportrail]

This is what I'm saying though.
Cut out six villains from there, since they'll all be in one film. That leaves us with:

Lizard
Kraven
Hobgoblin
Spider Slayers
Carnage

Now, go under what I feel would happen based on Raimi's take on things:
Hobgoblin won't happen. He didn't want to do Venom.
Spider-Slayers? Those won't work in the established style. Too sci-fi.

So.
Your list covers SM4 and 5, potentially. If he does decide to go with Carnage, perhaps.

It's a short list with some of the highest expectations ever lurking over it. Compare some of the combinations you guys are listing with how much there actually is to work with for these characters. It's a love to live up to, and it just doesn't seem like enough.

Maybe the way Venom was handled is creating some manner of post-traumatic stress within me, but who knows? I am so afraid Spidey's gonna become the next Schumacher-Batman.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'd say:

SM4- Lizard & Kraven

SM5- Mysterio & Electro

SM6- Hobgoblin...that's right END THE MOVIES WITH THE PAST HAUNTING PETER!!! If people really want to see something new, then put in Carnage also...then TWO NEW VILLAINS DEVELOP FROM THINGS OF PETE'S PAST!!!

Though I will leave the villain arrangements up to those in charge...I just did mine quick.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This is what I'm saying though.
Cut out six villains from there, since they'll all be in one film. That leaves us with:

Lizard
Kraven
Hobgoblin
Spider Slayers
Carnage

Now, go under what I feel would happen based on Raimi's take on things:
Hobgoblin won't happen. He didn't want to do Venom.
Spider-Slayers? Those won't work in the established style. Too sci-fi.

So.
Your list covers SM4 and 5, potentially. If he does decide to go with Carnage, perhaps.

It's a short list with some of the highest expectations ever lurking over it.

-Vaportrail

You wouldn't cut 6 from the list to do SS...some would be reoccurring villains. Plus, the SS should never happen anyway.

 

[Spider-Vader]

No Hob Goblin. The Goblin series should be a tale of father & son.

w00t! 600th post.

 

[Blader5489]

I say Lizard/Kraven for SM4, Vulture/Electro for SM5, and (at least) Carnage for SM6. I'm not really a fan of 616 Carnage, but I think it could work if you combine aspects of Ultimate Carnage with Tendril (from the Spider-Man: The Final Adventure mini).

Sinister Six definitely cannot work. The Mysterio/Scorpion combo works nicely, but there's no real story to tell about Peter. I wouldn't mind seeing Scorpion in SM6 though, maybe "paired" with Carnage.

As for Shocker and Rhino...they're thugs, really. There's no point in focusing a movie on them. One thing I would like to see in a future film is, at the beginning, an adaptation of "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" but with Rhino taking the place of Juggernaut. It wouldn't serve any real point for the story, but it would make a cool action scene.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No Hob Goblin. The Goblin series should be a tale of father & son.

w00t! 600th post.

I wonder is Bernard inherited the Osborn estate...hmmm.

Anyways, the goblin tech would still be out there, so why not have the Hobgoblin? He is one of Spidey's best villains.

Plus, him being a goblin brings back the demon's of the past, and makes it personal.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I say Lizard/Kraven for SM4, Vulture/Electro for SM5, and (at least) Carnage for SM6. I'm not really a fan of 616 Carnage, but I think it could work if you combine aspects of Ultimate Carnage with Tendril (from the Spider-Man: The Final Adventure mini).

Sinister Six definitely cannot work. The Mysterio/Scorpion combo works nicely, but there's no real story to tell about Peter. I wouldn't mind seeing Scorpion in SM6 though, maybe "paired" with Carnage.

As for Shocker and Rhino...they're thugs, really. There's no point in focusing a movie on them. One thing I would like to see in a future film is, at the beginning, an adaptation of "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" but with Rhino taking the place of Juggernaut. It wouldn't serve any real point for the story, but it would make a cool action scene.

How about showing what the power of will can help you overcome? There is a point in that.

Though, I don't think you can do a whole movie off one scene with a great message.

 

[Vaportrail]

You guys keep pairing all these villains together, but I never really understand the connection or the real drama it can bring.

Lizard and Kraven I can understand. The beast and the hunter.

Electro + Mysterio. Okay. Why?
Mysterio + Scorpion. Alright. Why?
Vulture + Electro. Why?

What's the connection between any of these characters?

Oh, that's right. The Sinister Six.
Why not group them together? S6'll happen. Raimi gets what Raimi wants, provided he sticks around. The pairings feel too shallow otherwise, the villains aren't engaging enough to stand up on their own.

And even with your pairings, say they happen... it sets up SM6 to be rather shallow villain-wise. I really do think the Venom film will be their way to get Carnage. It just seems like Raimi doesn't like the symbiote storyline based on everything I've seen.

Raimi's old-school Spidey. Kraven, the Lizard and S6 are old-school. Hobgoblin? Not so much. He's filler. Kinda like GG 3, 4 and 5. Like the Grim Hunter, like the female Doc Ock. You wouldn't do movies about them, would you?

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Fan]

You guys keep pairing all these villains together, but I never really understand the connection or the real drama it can bring.

Lizard and Kraven I can understand. The beast and the hunter.

Electro + Mysterio. Okay. Why?
Mysterio + Scorpion. Alright. Why?
Vulture + Electro. Why?

What's the connection between any of these characters?

Oh, that's right. The Sinister Six.
Why not group them together? S6'll happen. Raimi gets what Raimi wants, provided he sticks around. The pairings feel too shallow otherwise, the villains aren't engaging enough to stand up on their own.

And even with your pairings, say they happen... it sets up SM6 to be rather shallow villain-wise. I really do think the Venom film will be their way to get Carnage. It just seems like Raimi doesn't like the symbiote storyline based on everything I've seen.

Raimi's old-school Spidey. Kraven, the Lizard and S6 are old-school. Hobgoblin? Not so much. He's filler. Kinda like GG 3, 4 and 5. Like the Grim Hunter, like the female Doc Ock. You wouldn't do movies about them, would you?

-Vaportrail

Raimi will never get the chance to do SS unless he does that in SM4 cause he won't be back after SM4 (and even then, he might not be back for that).

I don't think SS will ever happen due to the fact developing 3 villains was hard enough. Try doing 6. They will be cardboard characters, and the price tag would be astronomical. It is not going to happen.

You can make connections by pairing villains together. It doesn't have to be a comic connection in order to come up with it. Sandman's backstory was completely changed, as was his association with Venom. Same can be done with Mysterio, Electro, etc.

 

[Vaportrail]

Sure, but it stands to be as loose a pairing as Sandman and Venom felt like in the first place. I mean, did anyone else feel like Venom finding Sandman in that alley was a little rushed... too easy?

Not only that, but if you do pair up two random villains as such, how is that doing anything different than what Venom and Sandman already did?
They need to raise the bar. The characters go beyond their abilities. That's what'll make them work.

Sandman's backstory was changed so that he would in some way have a connection with Peter. It worked for him. His origin was still essentially the same, and his character didn't seem too different overall. He does go good in the comics, after all, working with Silver Sable and the Wild Pack.
At no point during that movie did it feel odd to me.

I guess I just don't see it for the rest of them. They seem so petty compard to Ock or the Goblin. These are important characters in both Spider-Man and Peter Parker's life. The rest mostly just have to do with Spidey.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Fan]

Sure, but it stands to be as loose a pairing as Sandman and Venom felt like in the first place.

Not only that, but if you do pair up two random villains as such, how is that doing anything different than what Venom and Sandman already did?
They need to raise the bar. The characters go beyond their abilities. That's what'll make them work.

-Vaportrail

When the movie is being framed, the villain pairing wouldn't be random (like we are doing). The characters would be framed and selected. Sandman and Venom's association felt out of place to to them needing it to happen in a crowded movie. In a movie with more room, it would be much easier to find how they become associated.

Plus, villains don't need to team up.

 

[Spider-Vader]

You guys keep pairing all these villains together, but I never really understand the connection or the real drama it can bring.

Lizard and Kraven I can understand. The beast and the hunter.

Electro + Mysterio. Okay. Why?
Mysterio + Scorpion. Alright. Why?
Vulture + Electro. Why?
-Vaportrail

I chose Rhino/Scorpion as they're sort of the same thing. Vulture/Mysterio because they both used advanced technology.

SS would work if they already devolped 5 of the 6 villians.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I chose Rhino/Scorpion as they're sort of the same thing. Vulture/Mysterio because they both used advanced technology.

SS would work if they already devolped 5 of the 6 villians.

Exactly, and so far, we have Sandman and Doc Ock if they want to bring him back (which would be stupid because it would negate the message sent through Ock's character in SM2).

Why I don't see it happening. You can't develop 6 villains in one movie, and a lot of the movie would have to be spent bringing them together. Realistically, they'd be the SS for one fight scene.

 

[Vaportrail]

I think SS can work without the establishment. I know The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen wasn't a great film, but look at that as a means of how you'd have multiple characters. It'd probably fixate on one or two who are coming into the group late, just as they gain their powers. The rest would have them, though we would probably learn how.

It would work. And they'd probably only be a complete group for one or two scenes, sure, but Spidey would undoubtedly be dealing with them individually or a couple at a time through the whole thing. It'll work.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think SS can work without the establishment. I know The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen wasn't a great film, but look at that as a means of how you'd have multiple characters. It'd probably fixate on one or two who are coming into the group late, just as they gain their powers. The rest would have them, though we would probably learn how.

It would work. And they'd probably only be a complete group for one or two scenes, sure, but Spidey would undoubtedly be dealing with them individually or a couple at a time through the whole thing. It'll work.

-Vaportrail

LXG is not a good example for anything

I still think it wouldn't work. While the SS is a popular comics thing, the stories with them were not exactly fantastic. I don't think it could work, and would be too much $$$. Plus, the movie is better off with 1-2 villains per movie.

 

[Arcturus]

The essential villains, IMO;

1) Lizard
2) Electro
3) Scorpion


Also, I don't want to see a sinister six plot.

Ever.

 

[DACrowe]

Another villain thread?

Spider-Man 4: Lizard/Kraven. I already wrote an outline somewhere that I may c/p that weaves the early Lizard stories, the 30th anniversary ASM Lizard story (where instead of trying to turn people into Lizards, he is trying to cure himself, but will end up killing himself) and Kraven's Last Hunt. Something along those lines would work. Most of all cap it off with a wedding.

After that? I really don't care. I want Lizard done well, KLH done some kind of justice and hopefully Sam and co. coming back for Peter/MJ to tie the knot while we still have this cast. After that with a new team on SM5 (if they don't recast for SM4) I could care less. I'm guessing they're saving Carnage and someone random (Vulture, Elctro, take your pick) for SM5 and then a Sinister Six movie for SM6 (to try and seem clever). Then the series will peter out by then no different than Superman or Batman did.

My guess is though, that it will not touch KLH and be Lizard and someone flashier with a new cast and crew, with SM5/6 still following the pattern I just guessed.

 

[Blader5489]

How about showing what the power of will can help you overcome? There is a point in that.

Though, I don't think you can do a whole movie off one scene with a great message.

No, I don't mean it would be the final battle of the movie or anything; just a fight placed at the beginning of the movie or something.

Vulture + Electro. Why?

Adrian Toomes is an old war vet, kicked out of his own company by his former partner. Max Dillon is an introverted kid who gets kicked around in school (with Peter the only guy really befriending him). They're both angry at the world, but more importantly, angry at themselves for being weak and pathetic. When they both receive their powers, Toomes and Dillon abandon their identities and retreat into their new personas: Vulture and Electro. Dillon just wants to finally feel strong and capable, whereas Toomes wants revenge on the world for treating him like crap despite everything he has done for people. Electro decides to join Vulture because he gets respect from Toomes, whereas Toomes wants to manipulate Dillon to reach some higher goal (I'm thinking a rip-off of the Sinister Six trilogy plot?).

Couple that with a "Peter Parker No More" storyline, and you have a great movie with a theme about where we come from makes us who we are.

 

[Venom 1988]

Vulture + Electro. Why?

Simply cause it sounds right lol. Plus they have teamed up a lot in the comics anyway, last team up i can recall is in MK:SM.

Adrian Toomes is an old war vet, kicked out of his own company by his former partner. Max Dillon is an introverted kid who gets kicked around in school (with Peter the only guy really befriending him). They're both angry at the world, but more importantly, angry at themselves for being weak and pathetic. When they both receive their powers, Toomes and Dillon abandon their identities and retreat into their new personas: Vulture and Electro. Dillon just wants to finally feel strong and capable, whereas Toomes wants revenge on the world for treating him like crap despite everything he has done for people. Electro decides to join Vulture because he gets respect from Toomes, whereas Toomes wants to manipulate Dillon to reach some higher goal (I'm thinking a rip-off of the Sinister Six trilogy plot?).

Couple that with a "Peter Parker No More" storyline, and you have a great movie with a theme about where we come from makes us who we are.

Great idea

 

[November Rain]

Ouf of the ones left, the only ones that could really hold a film on their own are kraven and gargan.

the rest are meh, at best.

Unfortunately it's come to light that spidey's rogue villains are pretty crap. WHile they feel the need to cram three into a film is beyond me.

 

[Vaportrail]

Another villain thread?
Spider-Man 4: Lizard/Kraven. ...
After that? I really don't care.

IMO, this isn't just another villain thread... this is my exclamation of the futility of the seemingly random pairings of the remaning villains.

And the statement there is the sort of thing I'm afraid of. The reason I think the S6 works is simply because it feels overwhelming. That's the whole deal. It's that feeling that's most likely making most of you want to avoid it. Spider-Man's in over his webs. If you thought Spidey 3 felt crowded, wait until you see that one.
They haven't had a great storyline in the comics, sure, but I think the writers are good enough that they could come up with something fairly intriguing.

Vulture's pretty cool, outfit's a little corny as is, but if you boil it down... he's just a guy who can fly. The bell tower level in the old game was great. Something like that in the film would be cool, but once the guy starts flying and Spidey figures out how to take him down, what's left?

Scorpion is a crook with a tail and personality disorder. Abused by a deceptive scientist, given tasks against his will. Eh. He's essentially a crazier, brainwashed version of Doc Ock, except his tentacle can squirt stuff.

Mysterio prolly works, but I just don't like him.

Electro would be great to see, but I like him best when his arrogance gets in the way, and his need to prove his power over his 'allies' gets him in trouble.


And I really really really want to see the Jackal/Clone storyline. That's three amazing movies right there. Lizard/Kraven, S6 and "OMG, look at all the Spideys". Let's not forget the Peter Parker storylines either.. The Stacys, Black Cat, PP No more... things like that.
Each brings something fresh to the table that the general public may not know much about, the fans love/hate and that can really raise the stakes without becoming repetitive compared to the previous storyline.

-Vaportrail

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

SM4: Lizard/ Kraven
SM5: Vulture/Electro
SM6: Mysterio/Scorpion

I wouldn't mind seeing the Sinister Six, but I'm not sure if it would work.