Sequels Do we really have that many villains left?

Slipping_Halo said:
Another thing I don't really like is that almost every villain isn't an evil person-making them one-movie villains. Even if Doc Ock ISN'T dead (which is another thing that pisses me off-didn't we learn anything from Batman?), what would motivate him to be a villain again? Sandman too; no matter what you do, he won't be a bad guy, he'll just be forced into the situation somehow, which changes the dynamic dramatically. Friggin' hollywood.
Click to expand...
There's kind of a guideline in cinema, and stories that don't span 40 years with monthly releases. My dad says this every time he sees a movie, too.

"Always kill the bad guy."

For the original Tim Burton Batman... how upset were you that they killed off the Joker? Or the Penguin in Returns? Following that continuity, keep in mind that Catwoman, the Riddler, Mr. Freeze, Bane and Poison Ivy are still alive.

You didn't like those movies as much, did you?
Eh, that doesn't have much to do with it for Forever and B&R, but just assume the style didn't suck. We've given villains who've committed terrible crimes a chance to come back. Do they, ever? Nope.
Will Venom? Prolly not, not counting the spin-off. Carnage? We'll see.

For these brutal villains who cheat, deal and kill, usually an "eye-for-an-eye" rule is how it goes down.
Joker gassed an entire downtown area. Died.
Penguin plotted attacks, attempted to overthrow a city government through a manipulation of it's citizens, attempted to exact a missile launch against the city AND he killed people on a whim. Died.
Catwoman was naughty, sure. Kinda brutal in her tactics, and attempted to kill the hero. The last one is "good girl", I guess. Did she die? Eight times out of nine. The ninth is her bonus for realizing she was bad.
Two-Face? Killed people senselessly. Died.
Riddler? Plotted revenge, killed his boss, who was sort of an *** you would've killed yourself. Lives.

I think you see the pattern. I'm not going to delve into every superhero series, but yeah. Compare it to Spider-Man.

Green Goblin: Kills Dr. Stromm at his 'birth'. (I love how this works, compared to that firt Uruk-hai in Fellowship of the Ring. Just plain evil.) Kills the test pilot/observers, kills the board members, attacks cops, drops the damsel-in-distree and a bunch of kids from a bridge, almost kills the hero. Dies.

Doc Ock: His experiment causes the death of his wife. Kills the doctors trying to help him (tho I'm not certain Otto was actually conscious for this part). Takes Aunt May hostage, steals money successfully and builds a massive fireball with it (good of mankind, w/e), takes the damsel hostage. I don't think he was planning on killing anyone ever, so he doesn't die a villain. He comes to his senses and sacrifices himself, which can be seen as atonement for his wife, and every other wrong he committed.

Sandman: Accidently kills Uncle Ben. Beats up some cops. Respects the hero. Steals money (Unsuccessfully. I wonder what Spidey did about the dropped money in the subway?). Signs on to help defeat/kill the hero. Beats up on the hero a bit. Fails. My theory here is that when Harry shoots those missiles at him, he lets himself fall like that to 'put on a show for the crowd', then sneaks up and watches what happens. He doesn't want to kill Spider-Man. He's prolly a little pissed at him, but they make their peace.
I'm not sure how you'd kill Sandman, really.

Harry: Feels guilt over father's death. Tries to kill hero. Threatens damsel (he's not going to hurt her, no way). Makes hero feel sad. Helps hero save damsel. Dies. Y'know, I'm not really sure why. He tries to kill him, but doesn't do much more than that.

Venom: Takes damsel hostage. Tries to implicate Spider-Man for a crime. Tries to kill Peter. Kills Harry. Dies.

It works, within a story arc. Movies are just too limited to let everyone live. Sandman's the first villain that gets to, but I'm guessing he won't be the last. I think the symbiote will survive through Dr. Connor's sample, anyway. We'll see, but I wouldn't expect him to come back.

-Vaportrail
 
Vaportrail said:
There's kind of a guideline in cinema, and stories that don't span 40 years with monthly releases. My dad says this every time he sees a movie, too.

"Always kill the bad guy."

For the original Tim Burton Batman... how upset were you that they killed off the Joker? Or the Penguin in Returns? Following that continuity, keep in mind that Catwoman, the Riddler, Mr. Freeze, Bane and Poison Ivy are still alive.

You didn't like those movies as much, did you?
Eh, that doesn't have much to do with it for Forever and B&R, but just assume the style didn't suck. We've given villains who've committed terrible crimes a chance to come back. Do they, ever? Nope.
Will Venom? Prolly not, not counting the spin-off. Carnage? We'll see.

For these brutal villains who cheat, deal and kill, usually an "eye-for-an-eye" rule is how it goes down.
Joker gassed an entire downtown area. Died.
Penguin plotted attacks, attempted to overthrow a city government through a manipulation of it's citizens, attempted to exact a missile launch against the city AND he killed people on a whim. Died.
Catwoman was naughty, sure. Kinda brutal in her tactics, and attempted to kill the hero. The last one is "good girl", I guess. Did she die? Eight times out of nine. The ninth is her bonus for realizing she was bad.
Two-Face? Killed people senselessly. Died.
Riddler? Plotted revenge, killed his boss, who was sort of an *** you would've killed yourself. Lives.

I think you see the pattern. I'm not going to delve into every superhero series, but yeah. Compare it to Spider-Man.

Green Goblin: Kills Dr. Stromm at his 'birth'. (I love how this works, compared to that firt Uruk-hai in Fellowship of the Ring. Just plain evil.) Kills the test pilot/observers, kills the board members, attacks cops, drops the damsel-in-distree and a bunch of kids from a bridge, almost kills the hero. Dies.

Doc Ock: His experiment causes the death of his wife. Kills the doctors trying to help him (tho I'm not certain Otto was actually conscious for this part). Takes Aunt May hostage, steals money successfully and builds a massive fireball with it (good of mankind, w/e), takes the damsel hostage. I don't think he was planning on killing anyone ever, so he doesn't die a villain. He comes to his senses and sacrifices himself, which can be seen as atonement for his wife, and every other wrong he committed.

Sandman: Accidently kills Uncle Ben. Beats up some cops. Respects the hero. Steals money (Unsuccessfully. I wonder what Spidey did about the dropped money in the subway?). Signs on to help defeat/kill the hero. Beats up on the hero a bit. Fails. My theory here is that when Harry shoots those missiles at him, he lets himself fall like that to 'put on a show for the crowd', then sneaks up and watches what happens. He doesn't want to kill Spider-Man. He's prolly a little pissed at him, but they make their peace.
I'm not sure how you'd kill Sandman, really.

Harry: Feels guilt over father's death. Tries to kill hero. Threatens damsel (he's not going to hurt her, no way). Makes hero feel sad. Helps hero save damsel. Dies. Y'know, I'm not really sure why. He tries to kill him, but doesn't do much more than that.

Venom: Takes damsel hostage. Tries to implicate Spider-Man for a crime. Tries to kill Peter. Kills Harry. Dies.

It works, within a story arc. Movies are just too limited to let everyone live. Sandman's the first villain that gets to, but I'm guessing he won't be the last. I think the symbiote will survive through Dr. Connor's sample, anyway. We'll see, but I wouldn't expect him to come back.

-Vaportrail
Click to expand...

The thing is...what Green Goblin and what Doc Ock did, with kidnapping MJ, it works very well with the story, but in number 3, what Venom did(well, I should just call him Eddie, cuz we never even hear the name Venom in the movie, :cmad: ), it was just forced, much as to what the whole movie does; there's a forced team-up with Sandman and Eddie and a forced kidnapping of Eddie and MJ, and it doesn't make as much sense with how GG or DO does, because it just makes the story more interesting(GG being the first villain to find out Spider-Man's real name, DO kidnapping MJ so he can get Spider-Man and retrieve him for Harry).
 
Completely agree with Vaportrail.

These aren't comics, they're movies. They don't need to maintain an internal continuity for five decades, just one. There is no real reason to keep villains alive, and to do so only stretches the suspension of disbelief.
 
Spidey has many intersting villains as well as villains that never got good stories in the comics that can be intersting.
 
I Agree, for SM-4 i think Lixard and Kraven or Lizard and Scorpion would work
 
If anything, there are too many villains. Too many villains in the sense that there's a good number of priority guys who, for justice's sake, should be in the movies at some point (Lizard, Electro, Vulture, Scorpion, Mysterio), or have earned legitimate consideration (Kraven, Chameleon, Hobgoblin, Carnage, Rhino, Shocker), and to have all of them, even just the ones on the first list, in the series at some point, while at the same time maintaining the quality of the series for a whole six movies enough that it feels like the characters have been done justice, is very difficult.

Take Batman for instance. Batman has a pretty substantial Rogues Gallery, but if you only did three movies in the current continuity, and only did R'as, Scarecrow, Joker, and Two-Face. The only baddy who would have been totally snubbed is Catwoman. Riddler and Penguin probably could be fit in there too without much difficulty (since the structure of the Batman movies is very different than that of the Spider-Man movies, so you can have a significantly higher number of villains). That could happen in three movies. There's no pressing need to have Mr. Freeze, or Poison Ivy, or Clayface, in the current continuity.

But Spider-Man, it's possible to get to movie #6, and still not have included someone like Scorpion, and it would feel like a waste.
 
BAT_WING said:
well after the shocking treatment the gave venom he needs to be redone and if they wont redo him they have to at least do carnage and tell a proper symbiote storry none of this 3 secs here and there.

i mean he didnt even call himlsef venom he talked with a normal voive or screamed

and nowhere is he called venom in the film excpet the end credits.
Click to expand...
I disagree, Venom's voice was different. Listen when he talks in the alley and when he has Peter tied up in his webs and is beating him with a pipe. He didn't need to call himself Venom. That wasn't his main goal in the films, he just wanted Spider-Man to be killed. He didn't need to be called Venom in the film. He is pretty much a monster so we don't know what to call him, He's an "it". We know that he is Venom though.
 
At some point all francises run their course as well as one day so will Spidey. It is very difficult to keep the series substantially popular and entertaining because so many different elements will come into play. Directors, Writers, Actors even changes within Sony and Marvel themselves who will come in take the francise into different direction that may turn people off. All these things must be taken into consideration. History shows what happens to many movie francises as they continue. As the series continues people fans will want to continue to see new stories and characters as well as the villains of course as it has devloped a loyal following. Some people have already felt that SM3 itself was the start of perhaps a downfall because of the characters and story. I feel there is still a lot of potential and avenues that can be explored ans would work on screen but how they play out is a different story.
 
Kingpin is qiute complicated as I am open to seeing him and as far as Electro goes I am absolutely positive that at some point he will get done as he is probably a close second behind Lizard from the fans.
 
Me personally I am against a sinister six for reasons I have stated numerous times and Chameleon would absloutely be welcome in my eyes.
 
My idea for Chameleon would be bad ass and no connetion what so ever to Kraven.
 
I Agree, It'd work much better (and cooler) if they had em like that
 
Spider-ManHero12 said:
I disagree, Venom's voice was different. Listen when he talks in the alley and when he has Peter tied up in his webs and is beating him with a pipe. He didn't need to call himself Venom. That wasn't his main goal in the films, he just wanted Spider-Man to be killed. He didn't need to be called Venom in the film. He is pretty much a monster so we don't know what to call him, He's an "it". We know that he is Venom though.
Click to expand...

He wasn't an "it", he didn't even refer to himself as "we". He wasn't Venom, Venom beats Spider-Man up without using weapons, because Venom is stronger or supposed to be stronger and faster than Spider-Man; he was Eddie, a cheap knock-off of Venom through the eyes of Sam "I Suck" Raimi.
 
IamProdigy said:
He wasn't Venom, Venom beats Spider-Man up without using weapons, because Venom is stronger or supposed to be stronger and faster than Spider-Man; he was Eddie, a cheap knock-off of Venom through the eyes of Sam "I Suck" Raimi.
Click to expand...
I disagree, there is nothing wrong with Venom using weapons, He only used them twice and it really was cool. He was stronger and quicker than Spider-Man. For example, when MJ said, "watch out!" Spidey turned around and Venom was moving so fast, Spidey didn't have time to react. Venom kicked Spidey right through the Taxi, sending Spidey almost off the taxi. Sam Raimi doesn't suck. As I said before, he is a god in my eyes and he puts all of his hard work into these film's, he truly has showed it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Kevin Roegele
Sequels How on earth do you top the action scenes of 3?
2
Replies
28
Views
3K
Superhero 101
Superhero 101
LuiECuomo
Sequels Who do you think will comprise of "The Sinister Six" in Spider-Man 4/5/6
2
Replies
45
Views
5K
Eddie Brock
Eddie Brock
S
Sequels Why there should NOT be multiple villains in Spider-man 4
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
Hugebear
H
gamemiester
Sequels Who can be used as Opening Villains.
Replies
2
Views
2K
Silver Sable
Silver Sable
S
Sequels The Amazing Spider-Man: The Clone Saga
Replies
2
Views
735
TheLastBlade
T

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)

Staff online

Members online

Total: 2,084 (members: 27, guests: 2,057)

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,266
Messages
22,074,950
Members
45,875
Latest member
kedenlewis

Share this page

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"