Do you think Raimi wanted "Vultress"?

[henzINNIT]

I've read the reports, we all have, but do you think Felicia Hardy as the "Vultress" was really a brainfart of Raimi's, or something the studio was trying to push?

Raimi caught a lot of flack over it, but I'm not entirely sure he was really behind it. He wanted Vulture and clearly the studio weren't behind that. Apparently they were pushing for Hathaway, maybe this stupid idea was their idea of a compromise?

I read that the "suits" weren't comfortable with Lizard because he was too odd looking. They seemed to have changed their tune since. Maybe that was Raimi, because it would appear that he wanted his villains to have a face.

What do you think?

 

[Picard Sisko]

I know he definitely wanted to have Vulture, but I am not sure about Black Cat--I mean Vultress. He did such a great job with the first two movies, and that was when he had more creative control. I think that the studio was pushing him to do it, because they took more creative control for Spider-Man 3 and that failed.

As for Lizard, I think that Raimi was put under pressure to give his villains a face after Green Goblin (which I loved, idk why people complained so much).

 

[webhead731]

No, I'm pretty sure Raimi and Vultress were not related. Raimi wanted to change and re-work the script. He didn't like where the story was going.

Contrary to what some fans believe, the rumors weren't the final product that we would have gotten.
People act like the movie was shot and complete. The Vultress stuff wasn't even confirmed 100% true I don't think.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It's hard to say really. When you're a fan of Raimi, you would say no. When you realize that Raimi did want that Sandman retcon in the first place for Spider-Man 3, you wonder if he'd go as far as to create a whole new villain(hell, it got pretty close with "New Goblin").

Plus, we hear that Raimi wasn't satisfied with the script even after four different re-writes I believe, but that doesn't tell me he wasn't satisfied with the villain(s); the story itself could be something Raimi didn't see to fit as S-M 3's story was very off-putting. Also, it was rumored that Sony didn't like the idea of Vulture being a villain with being old and what not so who knows, perhaps Raimi did have the idea of bringing in a younger villain while using the same vulture guise.

Like I said, it's hard to say.

 

[The Joker]

Oh what could have been.

 

[socool]

I don't think Sam wanted Vulturess...or any of the stuff that was in the last version of the script. I think Sam wanted something closer to Spider-Man 1 and 2, probably with the Lizard or Vulture. Sigh...

 

[Venom75]

Being a fan of the older stuff,I can't see Raimi passing up Mysterio,Scorpion or the Lizard for a completely new and made up character. But I've never liked the Vulture or Raimi's obsession with him. I still don't understand why he didn't use the Lizard. The 4th picture was screaming for the character,and I think most everyone expected him. Esp. since Dylan Baker's(Connors)role became bigger in each film.
I was also rather disappointed with Sony. Spider-man 3's biggest problem(as many saw it)was studio interference. So,you'd figure they'd leave Sam and co. alone to the 4th movie?

 

[Anno_Domini]

Hell, we should have really gotten Lizard in Spider-Man 3, imo.

 

[Venom75]

Hell, we should have really gotten Lizard in Spider-Man 3, imo.

The Lizard is my second favorite after Venom,so seeing him in the series at all would've been great for me.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yah, Venom is my favorite Spidey villain, but I'm very much not into the idea of a villain, even as my favorite, being used just because he has a fanbase and what not. If Webb ever does use Venom, it better work with the story and if Venom can't work into a story for a sequel, then I don't want to see Venom. My favorite Batman villain is even Bane and if he didn't work out for any of Nolan's films I'd be fine...and so obviously I am excited that Bane is the villain in TDKR. I even like the re-vamped look of Bane with no venom(which for months I said he wouldn't be using venom and so many Bat fanboys argued and said I was dumb for thinking of something so logical, lol).

Lizard, however, would've worked in Raimi's series because they even introduced Dr. Connors. You knew Venom was going to be a failure when they only showed Eddie's name for an easter egg in the earlier films and had to create a whole new story for Eddie in S-M 3.

 

[Dragon]

Vultress was nothing more than a rumor. There were many rumors running around and even script outlines featuring Electro.

We know that Raimi did want to include the Lizard and Black Cat since there was a draft of Spidey 2 that featured them. And we know Raimi wanted to use the Vulture since he was supposed to be in 3. But there was nothing to confirm Vultress.

And- New Goblin wasn't created by Raimi- Harry did become a Goblin in the comics. Raimi just re-designed the costume. And as un-Goblin-like as he was he still looked better than... But that's another debate

 

[Anno_Domini]

Vultress was nothing more than a rumor. There were many rumors running around and even script outlines featuring Electro.

We know that Raimi did want to include the Lizard and Black Cat since there was a draft of Spidey 2 that featured them. And we know Raimi wanted to use the Vulture since he was supposed to be in 3. But there was nothing to confirm Vultress.

http://screenrant.com/spider-man-4-villains-john-malkovich-vulture-anne-hathaway-vulturess-kofi-36929/

Movieline has dropped an exclusive report claiming that they have it from an inside source close to Spider-Man 4 that all the previous rumors of The Lizard and/or Black Cat serving as the villains for Sam Raimi’s next Spidey film are totally off the mark.

So who will be the principal villain(s) in Spider-Man 4, according to Movieline? That’s where things get a bit odd (even more so than the Black Cat rumors).

According to this exclusive report (which is being backed by our friends at First Showing), actor John Malkovich is being eyed for a role as The Vulture, a classic Spider-Man foe whose power is a flight suit with razor-sharp wings. Ok, so maybe that isn’t so odd: Malkovich as The Vulture is one of those head-slap, “Should’ve thought of that” casting choices we all see with 20/20 hindsight. However, news that Anne Hathaway (previously rumored for a role as Black Cat) is being eyed for a role as “The Vulturess” have fans around the ‘Net scratching their heads in confusion.

http://screenrant.com/spider-man-4-villains-vulture-vulturess-tobey-maguire-robf-38350/

Anyway, when you’re given a new rumor every week (we’ve already wondered about Mysterio, Carnage, and The Lizard), you have to take every possibility into consideration, which is why MTV took the opportunity to question Spider-Man star Tobey Maguire about the Vulture/Vulturess combo. Unsurprisingly, Maguire was tight-lipped about the rumors, saying he would “plead the Fifth and not say anything” about Spider-Man 4. To see Maguire beg off MTV’s questions, check the video below.

Does Maguire’s silence mean that the Vulture/Vulturess rumors might be true? Honestly, at this point, does it really even matter? We’ve heard so many crazy rumors about this movie that I’m already losing interest in it. Right now, the only things that we know about Spider-Man 4 for sure are that it begins filming in 2010 with an expected release date of May 5, 2011.

And- New Goblin wasn't created by Raimi- Harry did become a Goblin in the comics. Raimi just re-designed the costume. And as un-Goblin-like as he was he still looked better than... But that's another debate

Harry being NEW GOBLIN is still close to have creating a whole new Goblin character as I did say. The costume was just awful and he looked like a black and green Rocket Racer.

 

[Picard Sisko]

Lizard would have fit well in Raimi's Trilogy. I can easily see that villain succeeding Goblin and Doc Ock. The character was set up already, and there was no reason why they wouldn't use him. Now Dr. Connors felt like a waste in SM1 and SM2.

 

[Dragon]

http://screenrant.com/spider-man-4-villains-john-malkovich-vulture-anne-hathaway-vulturess-kofi-36929/



http://screenrant.com/spider-man-4-villains-vulture-vulturess-tobey-maguire-robf-38350/

Harry being NEW GOBLIN is still close to have creating a whole new Goblin character as I did say. The costume was just awful and he looked like a black and green Rocket Racer.

Well, considering that there wasn't even a completed script when Raimi walked off the film those very vague rumor reports mean nothing. Raimi sure as hell didn't go to all the trouble of establishing Connors in 1, 2 & 3 for nothing. And the rumor-mill at that time also said that Raimi wanted the Lizard- but SONY was objecting because the villain was too "bizarre".

Also, considering that Hathaway was one of several actresses (Including Rachel McAdams and Julia Stiles) who were considered and further that Hathaway was obvioulsy being considered and subsequently hired for DKR that even further buries those rumors.

As for Harry, he looked fine- the action scenes with him were great. He just didn't look like a Goblin. Kinda like the lack of Lizard in TASM. Harry had no real reason to take on the mantle of the Goblin. He just wanted Peter dead and armed himself to pull it off.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Well, considering that there wasn't even a completed script when Raimi walked off the film those very vague rumor reports mean nothing. Raimi sure as hell didn't go to all the trouble of establishing Connors in 1, 2 & 3 for nothing. And the rumor-mill at that time also said that Raimi wanted the Lizard- but SONY was objecting because the villain was too "bizarre".

Also, considering that Hathaway was one of several actresses (Including Rachel McAdams and Julia Stiles) who were considered and further that Hathaway was obvioulsy being considered and subsequently hired for DKR that even further buries those rumors.

As for Harry, he looked fine- the action scenes with him were great. He just didn't look like a Goblin. Kinda like the lack of Lizard in TASM. Harry had no real reason to take on the mantle of the Goblin. He just wanted Peter dead and armed himself to pull it off.

So Hathaway can't go up for Selina Kyle if she was going to be Felicia as well in a film that got canned? I don't see how you could just top that as a rumor just because of Hathaway inevitably being in TDKR.

And Harry didn't look fine at all. I get the whole reasoning of people who liked the version of how Harry just wanted revenge so he didn't carry on with the mantle, BUT....what would be the point of wearing a mask if he just wanted revenge then? Why would he care about wearing even a mask, even when most of the time he didn't even wear his mask. It just never adds up. And I would think Harry would want to be a real Goblin as the last sight of Peter to see when he dies in honor of his father, who was the reason Harry was wanting vengeance.

Plus...why bring up TAS-M? This thread isn't about the reboot, but if you must know...Lizard looks fine the way he is. Lizard actually looks like a lizard.

 

[Venom75]

Yah, Venom is my favorite Spidey villain, but I'm very much not into the idea of a villain, even as my favorite, being used just because he has a fanbase and what not. If Webb ever does use Venom, it better work with the story and if Venom can't work into a story for a sequel, then I don't want to see Venom.
.

I fully agree,Anno....now. Honestly,that thought didn't even cross my mind in 2006/07. I was just so happy to see Venom/the symbiote on screen that back when I first saw Spider-man 3 I LOVED it. I still do like it now,but after years of the hype dying down I can really see what a flawed film it was,esp. in how the symbiote and Venom were treated.
I would love to see Venom and the symbiote story done right with Webb's series,but I agree with you. If it can't be done right,then don't do it at all.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I fully agree,Anno....now. Honestly,that thought didn't even cross my mind in 2006/07. I was just so happy to see Venom/the symbiote on screen that back when I first saw Spider-man 3 I LOVED it. I still do like it now,but after years of the hype dying down I can really see what a flawed film it was,esp. in how the symbiote and Venom were treated.
I would love to see Venom and the symbiote story done right with Webb's series,but I agree with you. If it can't be done right,then don't do it at all.

I had that idea with Spider-Man 3, although I was hoping the story would work revolving Venom.

 

[Dragon]

So Hathaway can't go up for Selina Kyle if she was going to be Felicia as well in a film that got canned? I don't see how you could just top that as a rumor just because of Hathaway inevitably being in TDKR.

And Harry didn't look fine at all. I get the whole reasoning of people who liked the version of how Harry just wanted revenge so he didn't carry on with the mantle, BUT....what would be the point of wearing a mask if he just wanted revenge then? Why would he care about wearing even a mask, even when most of the time he didn't even wear his mask. It just never adds up. And I would think Harry would want to be a real Goblin as the last sight of Peter to see when he dies in honor of his father, who was the reason Harry was wanting vengeance.

Plus...why bring up TAS-M? This thread isn't about the reboot, but if you must know...Lizard looks fine the way he is. Lizard actually looks like a lizard.

Harry wasn't wearing a mask to hide his identity. It was for protection. And Harry's revenge would be more complete if Peter had to look into Harry's eyes as he died, rather than a mask.

As for TASM- the Lizard looks reptillian. But he doesn't look good. Neither does the title character.

And regarding Hathaway, it's very unlikely that she'd have had a film as big as DKR dangling while she considered an offer from a film that didn't even have a ready script. She needed DKR more than they needed her. Let's remember that Tobey- star of a monster hit nearly got fired for dragging his feet on Spidey 2.

 

[Picard Sisko]

Harry wasn't wearing a mask to hide his identity. It was for protection. And Harry's revenge would be more complete if Peter had to look into Harry's eyes as he died, rather than a mask.

As for TASM- the Lizard looks reptillian. But he doesn't look good. Neither does the title character.

And regarding Hathaway, it's very unlikely that she'd have had a film as big as DKR dangling while she considered an offer from a film that didn't even have a ready script. She needed DKR more than they needed her. Let's remember that Tobey- star of a monster hit nearly got fired for dragging his feet on Spidey 2.

That's really opinion. He really does resemble the Lizard from Amazing Spider-Man #6

 

[Anno_Domini]

Harry wasn't wearing a mask to hide his identity. It was for protection. And Harry's revenge would be more complete if Peter had to look into Harry's eyes as he died, rather than a mask.

Protection that Harry only "needed" for a minute and then didn't "need" for the rest of his battle with Peter AND throughout the rest of the film. Yep, makes sense!

We will disagree on what Peter should see at his dying breaths. I think it should be the face of a Goblin as Norman is really what pushes Harry with this vendetta. It's all about preserving the name of his father, Green Goblin, and not even his own name.

As for TASM- the Lizard looks reptillian. But he doesn't look good. Neither does the title character.

That's still better than not even looking like a Goblin when Goblin is supposedly part of his "identity".

And regarding Hathaway, it's very unlikely that she'd have had a film as big as DKR dangling while she considered an offer from a film that didn't even have a ready script. She needed DKR more than they needed her. Let's remember that Tobey- star of a monster hit nearly got fired for dragging his feet on Spidey 2.

She DIDN'T have a film "dangling" while being considered for Felicia.

December 8, 2009 - First reports of her being cast as "Vulturess"

January 11, 2010 - First reports of Spider-Man 4 being cancelled

Nearly a year later, January 19, 2011 - First reports of her being cast as Selina Kyle

I have no idea if someone needs so many months to "get ready" for a role or what have you, but all of this sounds like appropriate timing for the two different roles.

 

[Dragon]

That's really opinion. He really does resemble the Lizard from Amazing Spider-Man #6

So is Harry's suit not looking good an opinion.

And I don't care what the Lizard resembles. He still doesn't look good. Neither does Spidey- and he doesn't resemble Spider-Man.

 

[Dragon]

Protection that Harry only "needed" for a minute and then didn't "need" for the rest of his battle with Peter AND throughout the rest of the film. Yep, makes sense!

Yeah it absolutely does make sense. Harry had never been in battle before and he was fighting the guy who killed his superhuman, armored-up father. Then after he nearly renders Peter unconscious, his confidence was up and his ego came into play and he didn't think about using the helmet.

We will disagree on what Peter should see at his dying breaths. I think it should be the face of a Goblin as Norman is really what pushes Harry with this vendetta. It's all about preserving the name of his father, Green Goblin, and not even his own name.

Harry obviously wouldn't want his father to be rembered as the Green Goblin, but as Norman Osborn. This is why his hallucinations were never of the Goblin, but of Norman. Harry wasn't proud of his father being the Goblin, thus why he didn't choose to accept the mantle.

That's still better than not even looking like a Goblin when Goblin is supposedly part of his "identity".

You're the only saying that. Harry never did. He only claimed to be the proud son of Norman Osborn, a man he felt was wrongly taken from him by Peter.

She DIDN'T have a film "dangling" while being considered for Felicia.

December 8, 2009 - First reports of her being cast as "Vulturess"

January 11, 2010 - First reports of Spider-Man 4 being cancelled

Nearly a year later, January 19, 2011 - First reports of her being cast as Selina Kyle

I have no idea if someone needs so many months to "get ready" for a role or what have you, but all of this sounds like appropriate timing for the two different roles.

So then since there was just a month between the RUMOR of her being cast in an unknown role in Spider-Man 4 and the actual report of the film being cancelled- with the confirmed reason for the cancellation being that Raimi didn't have a workable script and thus couldn't fulfill Sony's desired released date for Spidey 4- this makes the Vultress even less likely.

Scripts go through many stages, and never moreso than with this particualr franchise.

Spidey 1: First villains were Electro and Sandman. Then The Goblin and Ock, then finally the Goblin.

Spidey 2: First villains were Ock, the Lizard and Black Cat. Then just Ock. And even Ock changed. At one point he was Peter's age and in love with MJ.

Spidey 3: New Goblin, Sandman and Vulture. Then New Goblin, Sandman and Venom.

So its both unlikely that Sam wanted anything to do with a villain called "Vultress" since he never made up a villain before, nor that such a character even existed since Sony wound up going with the Lizard in the reboot, a character that Sam had wanted to work with since Spidey 2. And we also know that several actresses, not just Hathaway had tested for a role, and her hiring was unconfirmed even though Maguire and Dunst were confimred as returning.

 

[henzINNIT]

Hell, we should have really gotten Lizard in Spider-Man 3, imo.

I think it would have been too similar to Doc Ock to follow directly after tbh. Lizard was an obvious choice for film 4 though.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yeah it absolutely does make sense. Harry had never been in battle before and he was fighting the guy who killed his superhuman, armored-up father. Then after he nearly renders Peter unconscious, his confidence was up and his ego came into play and he didn't think about using the helmet.

I just don't buy this. He went through this trouble of creating this costume and he doesn't even use the mask just because he got some webbing on it. And you're saying it's also because he gained some confidence? Why don't we see more villains losing their mask due to confidence? It doesn't make sense to me, even with how many times someone who liked the version can justify it.

Harry obviously wouldn't want his father to be rembered as the Green Goblin, but as Norman Osborn. This is why his hallucinations were never of the Goblin, but of Norman. Harry wasn't proud of his father being the Goblin, thus why he didn't choose to accept the mantle.

He doesn't want to remember his father as Green Goblin but yet he uses the Green Goblin serum, Green Goblin's bombs and obviously the same technology for his own glider. That's a head scratcher; and as much as one as why the butler would keep a secret for years.

You're the only saying that. Harry never did. He only claimed to be the proud son of Norman Osborn, a man he felt was wrongly taken from him by Peter.

Raimi had obviously intended for Harry to still use the Goblin name in some form if he even named him New GOBLIN. I'm not only saying that; it's obvious when Harry is called New Goblin, even in the credits I believe.

So then since there was just a month between the RUMOR of her being cast in an unknown role in Spider-Man 4 and the actual report of the film being cancelled- with the confirmed reason for the cancellation being that Raimi didn't have a workable script and thus couldn't fulfill Sony's desired released date for Spidey 4- this makes the Vultress even less likely.

Scripts go through many stages, and never moreso than with this particualr franchise.

Spidey 1: First villains were Electro and Sandman. Then The Goblin and Ock, then finally the Goblin.

Spidey 2: First villains were Ock, the Lizard and Black Cat. Then just Ock. And even Ock changed. At one point he was Peter's age and in love with MJ.

Spidey 3: New Goblin, Sandman and Vulture. Then New Goblin, Sandman and Venom.

So its both unlikely that Sam wanted anything to do with a villain called "Vultress" since he never made up a villain before, nor that such a character even existed since Sony wound up going with the Lizard in the reboot, a character that Sam had wanted to work with since Spidey 2. And we also know that several actresses, not just Hathaway had tested for a role, and her hiring was unconfirmed even though Maguire and Dunst were confimred as returning.

So with using this same logic of yours, it's safe to say that Vulture was still a rumor and could have not been in Spider-Man 4, yes? I mean, we only received major reports of the villains that were in the films and not as just rumors, but if you're saying it's dodgy if Hathaway was reported to play "Vulturess" just a month before the film got canned, then one can assume that it's just a rumor Malkovich was reported as Vulture and Vulture may not have even been a villain in Spider-Man 4. It's only logical if you're saying the same thing about Anne Hathaway.

I think it would have been too similar to Doc Ock to follow directly after tbh. Lizard was an obvious choice for film 4 though.

Yah, I guess that is true. Wasn't thinking about Doc Ock's story being very similar to Dr. Connors. Would the fans have been still pleased if Lizard was in an installment of Raimi's series even though Raimi pretty much used that sympathetic storyline for Otto?

 

[Dragon]

I just don't buy this. He went through this trouble of creating this costume and he doesn't even use the mask just because he got some webbing on it. And you're saying it's also because he gained some confidence? Why don't we see more villains losing their mask due to confidence? It doesn't make sense to me, even with how many times someone who liked the version can justify it.

What webbing? Harry slams Peter into a brick wall. Peter is mounted there and appears defeated. So Harry opens the mask to reveal himself and gloat. Yes. His ego is showing. Yes. His lack of experience is showing (Thus why Peter so easily defeats him). Harry is not a criminal mastermind. He's an angry, petty, lonely guy who misses his daddy and misplaces the blame on Peter, rather than realizing that his father was a murderous nutjob (Something Harry was witness to) who deserved to be taken down. And geez- I guess Captain America, Thor, Ironman, all experienced combatants who also remove their protective covering at the drop of a hat are a problem for you as well.

He doesn't want to remember his father as Green Goblin but yet he uses the Green Goblin serum, Green Goblin's bombs and obviously the same technology for his own glider. That's a head scratcher; and as much as one as why the butler would keep a secret for years.

And you're saying this is the first time you've seen a villain that's conflicted? Didn't you say that Venom is your favorite? Does everything he does make sense? Harry needed the Goblin's power serum and weaponry to "avenge" his father. It doesn't mean he had to have his father's Goblin fetish. HARRY had been in Peter's shadow. HARRY had been a disappointment to his father. HARRY had failed in Oscorp's business ventures. So, it's reasonable that he'd want to triumph over his enemy as himself- not as a carbon copy of his father.

Raimi had obviously intended for Harry to still use the Goblin name in some form if he even named him New GOBLIN. I'm not only saying that; it's obvious when Harry is called New Goblin, even in the credits I believe.

But he's not called New Goblin in the film. Only as a stinging joke from Peter to humiliate him.

So with using this same logic of yours, it's safe to say that Vulture was still a rumor and could have not been in Spider-Man 4, yes? I mean, we only received major reports of the villains that were in the films and not as just rumors, but if you're saying it's dodgy if Hathaway was reported to play "Vulturess" just a month before the film got canned, then one can assume that it's just a rumor Malkovich was reported as Vulture and Vulture may not have even been a villain in Spider-Man 4. It's only logical if you're saying the same thing about Anne Hathaway.

Except that Malkovich confirmed himself that he was in the film playing the Vulture. Hathaway never did and made no mention of Vultress.