Let's Play the Blame Game

[TMC1982]

Who's most at fault for the mostly lukewarm response that "Spider-Man 3" received:
*Sam Raimi - As the director, you're pretty much overseeing what goes on screen. Raimi and his brother also played a role in writing the screenplay. He also allowed the movie to be bogged down in cheese even though the the subject matter (i.e. the symbiote) was initally preceived to be darker. It was also pretty much Raimi's idea to make Sandman the real killer of Uncle Ben. Raimi also hated Venom (even before Avi Arad suggested it to him), due to him being stuck in his Silver Age mentality.

*Avi Arad - Practically forced Raimi to include Venom even though the script was already (by this point) finished, due to emails from fanboys asking about when Venom would appear in the series.

*Laura Ziskin - I know for sure that she wanted Gwen Stacy in the movie (to create conflict in a ready complicated Peter-Mary Jane/Peter-Mary Jane-Harry romanatic angle) even though it was already pretty crowded in the main character area. Sam Raimi also didn't initially plan on having Gwen in the movie, but was forced to do so by overzealous studio execs and/or fanboys.

*Fanboys - If it weren't for them, then Sam Raimi in all likelyhood wouldn't have been persuaded to include Venom in the first place. Raimi originally wanted the Vulture to be the second (or third if you count Harry Osborn) villain besides the Sandman.

*The actors - There (at least from my point of view) was sort of this vibe going on that the cast (namely, Tobey Maguire, Kirsten Dunst, and James Franco) were growing weary of playing the same characters for a third time (and were mearly sleepwalking/going through the motions).

 

[Doctor Jones]

Avi arad dammit!!

 

[Vash1538]

Rami- I fault Rami for giving us the watered down kids version of Spiderman in SM1, for all but removing Spiderman from SM2 (which the amount of time Peter spent without his mask on), but I can't fault him for the lukewarm reception of 3. HOWEVER, I do fault him for all the dance numbers, but we got what we had gotten for the last two movies with Rami, more of the same.

Remember, SM2 was a FANTASTIC movie at script level, and that translanted into just a great movie on screen. For every genius scene (Doc Ock's birth at the hospital, the trail fight) there was twice as much cheese to spread around (most of the dialoge/scenes revolving around Peter stopping the speeding train. That was a dramatic scene, no doubt, but the drama covered the fact we were watching Peter Park delibertly taking his mask off while on a speeding train going through the heart of New York, trading bad one lines with a old man, oh yeah, who also got hit full on with one of Doc Oct's tenticles with narry a scratch to show for it.)

Also, Rami came up with the HORRIBLE payoff for Harry. He was not the son of the Goblin, he was an X-Games reject.

Avi Arad- Screwed the film with the inclusion of Venom in 3. I WILL BET that Venom would have had his own film in 4.

Fanboys- well.....the studio didn't listen to them for the first two films, why should they listen to them for 3? I do not put any blame on them.

The Actors- Thought most of them did a really good job. I have grown to appreciate what most of them did more through the editing of the film I've done. There is a lot of overlooked gold in the film, they were just buried in the material and direction they were given.

Laura Ziskin- I voted for her. I really don't like Ziskin. Listen to her during commentary for SM1 and SM2, and you get a pretty good idea what was going on behind the scenes when she was involved.

The winner, though, to me is THE STUDIO.

They pushed for this Power Ranger Spiderman lighten up for the kiddies crap we have gotten for 2 1/2 films. (Because SM2 had its moments where it was really great, and made the comic proud). Instead of making a film grounded in source material, taking the already established storylines and characters and transporting them onto film, ala the Dark Knight and Batman Begins, the decided to forgo that, and camp it up. All Rami has done is make a much more competent version of Batman Forever with Spiderman. (cheesy one lines, shallow relationships, all too convient situations? Check, check and check.)

So, in final tally:

Studio
Ziskin
Rami
Arad

No blame on actors or fanboys.

 

[Venom 1988]

All of them

The actors to a much lesser extent however.

 

[webhead731]

Well, seeing how I liked the movie, I can't point figures at anybody except Arad for forcing Venom in, rather than leaving it be. I liked Venom, but with his screen time he should have survived.

But mostly, I blame the fanboys. Most are nitpicky and are not ever happy no matter what we get. The film was too hyped and no matter how good it was, fanboys were gonna be let down.

 

[Hurm...]

Off with Avi's HEAD!

 

[Venom75]

I've said this before,but I hate all the blame going to Arad. Again,I don't think he "forced" Raimi to do anything. Sam's a big boy and could've told Arad "no," when asked(not forced)to include Venom. Or he could've said that he already had the script and didn't want to change it,but he could throw in an ending that would've suggested Venom and the symbiote for part 4(like Batman Begins did at the end with the Joker card).
Honestly,I love Sam Raimi and I think he did a great job with the series. As many here already know,I loved part 3. It was a very good film,but I have always said that it could've been SO much better and that the whole Venom/symbiote storyline was wasted.
But,overall I put the blame mainly on Raimi(and the script writers as well). Forget the whole Venom thing for a second. He's the one that put the "dance scenes" in the film that so many hated. He gave Peter his "emo" look,had Kirsten Dunst sing,made Flint Marko Uncle Ben's killer and made the film full of the cheesy moments that alot of people didn't like and constantly complained about.
Now,even if Arad had,um..."forced" Raimi to include Venom,then Sam(and the writers) should've been able to somehow make things work. Raimi's a skillful director who's been in this business a long time. He knows how to make a great movie. Had he done his homework on Venom a little bit more and respected the character then things could've all worked out(I mean,Venom teaming up with Sandman? C'mon!). I've heard many people say that all the film needed was a few more extra scenes and while I already expressed that I liked the movie,I can agree with that. Just an extra 5-10 minutes of dialog or action would've been great and I don't think it would've made the movie too long(POTC was longer and Titanic is 3 hours long and both were hits).
I think he was clearly tired and exhausted having just finished work on Spider-man 2,and I think the returning actors felt the same way. After all,the studio hardly gave them any breathing room. I read in the "Making of..." book that there were constant rewrites in the script and changes to certain characters. All that with the studio breathing down your neck and already setting a release date? It couldn't have been easy on anyone. Plus,how long did the film take to shoot? Like almost a year? Maybe longer? Imagine having to deal with all of this 24/7. It seemed like a few of the scenes were simply put together just to quickly tie it all together,whereas in Spidey 2 every little detail and emotion was dealt with(granted Spidey 3 had alot more to take on than the previous movies). By the end Raimi was probably sick of Spider-man and he even admitted to needing a break.
I don't even like to use the word "blame" but I would put it mainly on Raimi. However...I do think that no one is blameless. You could rightly point a finger at everyone.
Again,I really liked the film,but there were parts I didn't care for and I could understand why some didn't like it.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

Avi Arad.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Sam Raimi and his family.

Second place goes to Avi Arad.

 

[The Shape]

It obvious what happened here. Spider-man 2 was an amazing film, but it was less successful than SM1. Even though it was the best-reviewed superhero film ever at that time, the studio must have felt there was too little action with the one villain. So they filled the movie with crap, losing any kind of story focus, in order to sell more tickets and toys.

I blame Arad, Ziskin, and the studio for doing this. I blame Raimi for allowing it and giving a half-assed effort.

 

[Panthro]

I blame Raimi, Arad, and the studio.

 

[Venom75]

I think the fans are blameless,though. So,alot of people love Venom(me included),but not one of us were banging down Raimi or Arad's door with torches and pitchforks saying,"We want Venom! We want Venom!" lol I think just about all us Venom fans would've waited for part 4 to see the character and the symbiote done right,then have what we got in Spider-man 3.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

Jeez, it's been two years now and we're still doing this?

Other


But I'm not gonna narrow it down just to SM3.
To me the Spidey franchise as a whole never reached its full potential.
All in all I think it's a very average trilogy.
Putting the Evil Dead guy behind it wasn't a very good choice.
Him and Bruce Campbell live for cheese.
And with his hit and miss reputation Avi Arad didn't help matters much either.
So I blame all the studio heads that made those flicks possible.
The actors were just doing their job and the fanboys...well, sheep will be sheep no matter how much they try to roar.

 

[LightningFlash]

Avi Arad for bringing up Venom.

Sam Raimi for screwing up Venom AND Sandman.

Whoever wrote the damn script.

But, James Franco should get 0 blame. He was amazing in all three movies.

 

[GoldGoblin]

-Arad -Raimi -Ziskin -Fanboys

-For putting Venom in.
-For putting Gwen Stacy in.
-For making Harry's Goblin character the Rocket Racer.
-For making MJ sing.
-For making Peter a cry baby.
-For making characters dance like this was a musical.
-For making Sandman Uncle Ben's killer.
-For not having spidey have a final swing.
-For making Topher Grace Brock/Venom.
-For not having a good writer.
-For sticking his kid in the movie.

 

[American_Hobo]

-Arad -Raimi -Ziskin -Fanboys

-For putting Venom in.
-For putting Gwen Stacy in.
-For making Harry's Goblin character the Rocket Racer.
-For making MJ sing.
-For making Peter a cry baby.
-For making characters dance like this was a musical.
-For making Sandman Uncle Ben's killer.
-For not having spidey have a final swing.
-For making Topher Grace Brock/Venom.
-For not having a good writer.
-For sticking his kid in the movie.

Exactly what i'm thinking.

i'll just add one more thing.
-For screwing up Venom big time.

 

[TMC1982]

Jeez, it's been two years now and we're still doing this?

Other


But I'm not gonna narrow it down just to SM3.
To me the Spidey franchise as a whole never reached its full potential.
All in all I think it's a very average trilogy.
Putting the Evil Dead guy behind it wasn't a very good choice.
Him and Bruce Campbell live for cheese.
And with his hit and miss reputation Avi Arad didn't help matters much either.
So I blame all the studio heads that made those flicks possible.
The actors were just doing their job and the fanboys...well, sheep will be sheep no matter how much they try to roar.

It's been 11 years since "Batman & Robin" came out yet, we still feel the need to analyze what when wrong. So why not "Spidey 3" also?

 

[LightningFlash]

I think Raimi must make Spider-Man 4 much better than the last three movies all together to get some fans back.

 

[protocida]

Raimi, Arad and Zinsky are the guilty ones.

Sam Raimi wrote a screenplay with Sandman and Vulture as the main villains and Harry as a secondary villain, and intented to deep Peter Parker and Mary-Jane relationship.

Then, Laura Zinsky imposed Gwen Stacy in script, forcing a sublop about a love triangle, despite the fact that that was alredy aborded in Spider-Man 2.

Then, Avi Arad decided to impose Venom in the movie, due the fan's claming, despite the fact that Raimi hated Venom and said multiple times that would never want to work with him.

So, Raimi had to cut Vulture from the script and reorganize it to include Venom and create a subplot about the Symbiont. So, Raimi decided to do a crap fest. Made Peter Parker a funny emo dancing boy, made Mary-Jane a whiny *****, transformed Harry in a soap opera villain and gave Sandman a soap-opera motivation only to cut it by half in the editing room, ending everything by making Venom so loser as Eddie Brock was.

The ressult of all of this? A good movie, with fun action scenes and good acting, but the wainsted potential of being one of the best superhero movies ever, paired with "Superman", "Iron Man", "X-men 2" and "The Dark Knight".

 

[protocida]

Raimi, Arad and Zinsky are the guilty ones.

Sam Raimi wrote a screenplay with Sandman and Vulture as the main villains and Harry as a secondary villain, and intented to deep Peter Parker and Mary-Jane relationship.

Then, Laura Zinsky imposed Gwen Stacy in script, forcing a sublop about a love triangle, despite the fact that that was alredy aborded in Spider-Man 2.

Then, Avi Arad decided to impose Venom in the movie, due the fan's claming, despite the fact that Raimi hated Venom and said multiple times that would never want to work with him.

So, Raimi had to cut Vulture from the script and reorganize it to include Venom and create a subplot about the Symbiont. So, Raimi decided to do a crap fest. Made Peter Parker a funny emo dancing boy, made Mary-Jane a whiny *****, transformed Harry in a soap opera villain and gave Sandman a soap-opera motivation only to cut it by half in the editing room, ending everything by making Venom so loser as Eddie Brock was.

The ressult of all of this? A good movie, with fun action scenes and good acting, but the wainsted potential of being one of the best superhero movies ever, paired with "Superman", "Iron Man", "X-men 2" and "The Dark Knight".

 

[LightningFlash]

Woah, where was the good acting? The butler? Every Peter/MJ conversation? Every Harry/MJ conversation?

 

[Venom75]

It's no wonder all us Spidey fans are still talking about this. Spider-man 3 had the potential to be one of the greatest comic book films ever,maybe THE greatest. If Venom and the symbiote were done right,as well as Harry's revenge motives then this film could've been as dark,disturbing and as complex as The Dark Knight. It was good,but it could've been so much better.
What a waste.

 

[TMC1982]

Woah, where was the good acting? The butler? Every Peter/MJ conversation? Every Harry/MJ conversation?

That's why the cast is one of the options.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

Woah, where was the good acting? The butler? Every Peter/MJ conversation? Every Harry/MJ conversation?

Those weren't quite acting problems as much as they were writing ones.

 

[Spider-Mike77]

Hello,

Just to throw in two more cents, I really was let down by the acting from Tobey and especially Kirsten and I honestly hope she is left out of number 4. I really felt like Sam and Tobey had a good handle on the Peter Parker character in 2 but lost it with 3.