DTL Season 5-National Conference Championship

[DTL Commish]

The rules:
This is one of four threads containing matches.
Due to the holiday, these threads will be in use for 9 days. Days 1-4 (Mar 30 - Apr 3) are strictly setup time for owners to plead their cases, tell us their team’s strategies, breakdown the match ups, and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory. Please, let the owners do this on their own with no help.

On Day 5 (Apr 4) I will post and tell everyone that voting may begin. Any votes cast before I open voting will not count. Look over the matchups and read the strategies, and take into consideration how in-character each character is. Afterwards, use your best judgment to decide who you think has the best chance to win the match. (Note: The length of a writeup the discretion of the owner. Do not punish owners just for having a shorter writeup.)

To vote, post the team names you think will prevail in each match. Remember to vote for all matches or your vote will not count! The teams with the highest vote total at the end of the 9th day (Apr 8) will get a W while the other will get an L. (Equal votes will result in a tie.)

The battleground for this week is: Themyscira

The Immortals
Silver Surfer (exiles) - Power cosmic wielder and herald of galactus
Xavier Juggernaut - Super Strength, Invulnerable, Genius, Telepath
Talisman - Magic user who can block magic
Midnighter - Supreme superhuman street fighter who can
Death - Wolverine with added powers of cloaking armour, teleportation and sword that fires energy blasts

VS.

Baron Helmut Zemo (with Moonstones)(MU)- The gravimetric Moonstones grant Zemo his own version of Cosmic Awareness and powers, including the ability to phase and to manipulate time and space, in addition to his own natural skills and prodigious leadership ability.
Ares(1) (DU) - The Olympian God of War, Conflict, and Death, and gains power from all three. Possesses vast superhuman strength and durability, magical armor, the Staff of Hades (which devours life), and various mystical, devine and spiritual powers, including energy-projection and interdimensional teleportation. Injuries afflicted by Ares are difficult to heal.
Lightray (DM) - Faster than light, superhuman strength and durability, energy conversion, and light manipulation. Lightray is highly-intelligent and possesses a Mother Box.
Batman 1-Million (DR) - Gengeneered, flight, advanced martial-arts (psychic element), technopathy, Datarangs, avatars, tesseract technology.
Freedom Beast (DR) - Telepathy, mild super-strength, and the ability to fuse any two organisms together into a chimera.

 

[Khellendros]

Okay, prep writeup is going to be very quick and to the point:

Once the team has become acquainted with their surroundings and received info on their opponents, they set to planning their battle, and gathering materials for an idea Midnighter had. After considerable coaxing, Surfer agreed to the idea and, using gathered materials, transmutes his clothing into an near-exact duplicate (only difference being in size) of Death's armor, and his staff into a duplicate of Death's sword. Next, Talisman summons wind spirits for herself, Midnighter, Death and Xavier, allowing them to fly. Hours are spent by the teammates, learning to work with their spirit allies to achieve smoth, controlled flight.

While the others rested that night, Midnighter and Death spent time sparring, allowing Midnighter to refamiliarize himself with his new weapon, and his armor's stealth capabilities. As the morning broke, and they prepared for battle, Talisman cast cloaking spells on the sword wielding pair, making sure that now none of their foes would detect them while cloaked. As the enemy appeared and scattered, Xavier and the Surfer split up, taking on the opponents they had chosen earlier, while Midnighter and Death sped off asfast as their wind spirits could carry them (VERY fast, by the way) and Talisman teleported herself into the middle of an arena used for, she assumed, training purposes, that she had taken the time to prepare the night before. As the two titanic Ubers clashed witht he opposing team's, she waited for her own opponent to arrive.

 

[Khellendros]

The Battles:

Surfer vs Zemo:

Streaking through the air, a cruel sneer on his face, the Surfer made his way directly for Zemo. Extending his senses to their finest perceptions, he waited until that familiar sensation of gravimetric energy forming in his vicinity, and in an instant disrupted it, blowing through the space that should have been occupied by a aperture in space. Again he sensed energy building,t his time around his body. The fool meant to tear him to pieces. With little effort, he disrupted the energy again. Now only a few hundred yard from Zemo, he grinned as he vanished, and reappeared to his senses directly behind him. A stream of destructive energy lanced out, only to split in twain, missing the silvery warrior who had spun to meet his foe.

"Arrogant FOOL! You seek to harm a wielder of the Power Cosmic with your amusing tricks with gravity? I am the Silver Surfer! I command the power of black holes! What does your precognition tell you about how this conflict will end, vain one?"

Rather than answer, Zemo summoned the power of the Moonstones again, beginning the teleport process. In the microsecond it too his body to begin vanishing into the port, the Surfer reached out with his energy, twisting it savagely and wrenching the spatial warp closed, dispersing the half a body that was already through into oblivion. A strange gurgling exhalation as Zemo tried to scream in agony drifted into the air, as Zemo's corpse tumbled to the ground. Surfer watched the corpse fall to the ground, bemused.

"Idiot. You might have presented something of a challenge had you stayed and fought rather than seeking a better position of attack."

Turning away, he sped towards where he could sense to mystically powered giants doing battle, eager to end this fight as soon as possible.


Ares vs Xavier:

Enchanted blade clashed, sparking and biting shallow against crimson armor, metal-wrapped fist slammed against godly armor, and one of the more powerful minds in existance assailed an alien consciousness. Xavier had known from the beginning that his role was most likely that of a stall tactic. As unlikely as it was that Ares could ever stop Xavier, it was nearly as unlikely that he could stop Xavier. Lunging forward, he pawed at the incredibly durable armor Ares wore, even as he assaulted his mind, attempting to keep the god off balance, unable to try any of his more esoteric tactics.

A dagger sunk into his eye, and yet even as Xavier snarled in anger and pulled the dagger free, he projected his pain into Ares' mind. Pulling out the blade, he felt his eye regrowing, though much slower than before. He magnified his pain as he projected it into Ares' mind, forcing the god to feel a (semi) mortal's agony, even as he succeeded, with herculean effort, to wrench his helmet from his head. Ares, unconcealed face now twisted in anger, struck out, this time with a staff at whose touch the Juggernaut began to feel very... cold. Feeble, even. As he sank to one knee, a flash from across the island escaped both their notice. But, a second later, when an impossibly sharp blade, longer and wider than a man, shot out of the sky faster than the average scientist would have believe possible, and with unerring accuracy beheaded the dark god, slamming through godly sinew and bone with force sufficient to smash through a wall of Vibranium like tissue paper. the Surfer floated towards the ground, eyes glowing as his board slid smoothly under his feet. Drifting to a few inches above the ground, he lashed out at the severed head with the Power cosmic, absorbing it into his board, but leaving the body to rot.With not a glance for the weakened Xavier, he shot into the sky, content to watch the rest of this minor drama play out.


Talisman vs Lightray:
Elizabeth Twoyoungmen stood calmly in the middle of the arena, the steady buzz of millions of spirit mosquitos actually a reassuring sound. It was cool in the deep shade created by the seemingly solid mass of insects that clotted not only the sky above the arena, but every other entrance. Littering the ground around her were dozens of enchanted weapons. Arrowheads, spearheads, swords and daggers. A final spirit hovered at her left hand, awaiting her silent command to act.

Moments after the enemy had appeared, she heard a notable increase in the buzzing, as the swarm sensed incoming prey. Force to slow down, since flying through a seething mass of magical insects that could be right above a nearly indestructible magical barrier at mach one would put a damper on his day, Lightray groaned as the swarm,a s one, streamed through the sky towards him, covering him in buzzing, crawling bodies. Were he a human, his skin would have been one mass of tiny holes, punctured by the blood hungry mosquitos. As it was, they simply obscured his vision, tickled the bare skin they crawled across, and just generally annoyed him. Blasting away the first layer of insects, he cursed as a new wave took their place. In the brief second he could see, though, he saw a beautiful woman, standing in the arena, pointing up at him... and then buzzing, annoying blackness.

Even as he unleashed his first blast, cutting the swarm down by nearly a fourth, Talisman gestured, ordering the spirit of magnetism to attack. Sweeping the assorted weapons up in its power, the spirit launched itself and the projectiles at the target a moment after he blasted away another portion of the swarm. Deep inside, the bug blanket, a mother Box pinged frantically. Small things, flying at him fast. He knew that, though, and with the deafening sound of the mosquitos distracting him at this point, he didn't register that sense of urgency in the Mother Box's initial warning, until it was too late. Even as it pinged, a gladius sword slammed into his gut, followed a fraction of a second later by a trio of spearheads that spun through his right upper arm, obliterating the flesh there. Even as he began to move away, ten more swords punctured his torso, while smaller arrowheads ripped at his face and extremities. The spirit, completely indifferent to its target, surrounded Lightray in a whirlwind of enchanted blades for nearly three whole seconds before the Mother Box, also badly damaged, opened a boom tube to take her charge elsewhere to heal. Seeing this as a sign of continued life, though, the spirit followed the body as it fell into the tunnel, dragging its shining cloud of destruction behind it, having been told to never stop attacking, so long as there was even a hint of life left.


Death and Midnighter vs Batman M* and Freedom Beast:

The two well armored assassins dropped from the sky nearly half a mile from their foes, and looked down at Freedom Beast, leading a herd of what looked to be Megalodons merged with Chimeras to form fire-breathing landsharks the size of city buses. Above him, Batman glided along, a number of datarangs flying in ever-increasing circles around the herd, obviously searching for them.

Death was the first to move, teleporting onto the back of the "land shark" Freedom Beast was sitting upon and running him through even as he spun to meet his attacker, lashing out futilely with his mind against the invincible psychic defenses provided by Death's armor. As Batman swooped down to attack Death, Midnighter appeared in the air, slashing out with his own sword. not being caught off guard like his ally, Batman dodged backwards and suddenly doubled and redoubled, facing Midnighter with four versions of himself. Two unleashed their kick/telepathic attack combo, while the other two flew around for flanking positions.

Allowing his armor's defenses to shrug off the telepathic component of the attack, Midnighter dropped from the sky to the ground before the kicks could land, pulled a pair of shuriken from his trenchcoat-turned-cape/scarf thing and flung them with unerring accuracy at the two who had moved to flank and were now following him to the ground. Beheading them both, he didn't stop to watch what would happen to dying avatar and reach for another four shuriken, flung them up at the remaining two, only to have them intercepted by datarangs. The third clone shot from the sky towards midnighter, spinning in midair to launch a roundhouse kick even as the real batman reached for his belt to bring out a certain little soul stealing piece of technology. Ducking the kick, and blocking the followup elbow strike, Midnighter slammed his palm into the clone hard enough to tear the spine clear out of a normal human's body. Knocked back a step, the Batman lunged under a sword strike and launched another series of blows, each of which were blocked and responded to with a thrust or slash of a blade.

As the real Batman drifted silently down to bring Midnighter within the soul stealing mechanism's range, Batman heard a roaring sound behind him, and briefly sensed a presence... unmasking itself. There stood Death, uncloaked but mostly obscured by the column of destructive energy that slammed into the man from the future's back, tearing apart his armor and the flesh and bone underneath.

Surprisingly the final avatar didn't disappear with its creator. Still, gripped by a thundering fury, it launched itself into a vicious, lethal, but slightly off balance attack. Dipping back out of range of the first blow, he moved inside his reach with a speed previously unseen, brought his blade up between them, and sunk it into the clone's torso, just under where the ribcage should have been. Allowing the avatar to slip off his blade, Midnighter began shrugging off the outer armor, immediately complaining about the damned heat on the godforsaken island they'd found themselves on.

 

[Dark Gog]

Open your mind, kind reader, to the universe around you! Surely you did not believe its wonders ceased with you! The four colors of the printed page could never hope to capture what your very eyes would fail to register. No superlatives are necessary to describe its scale and splendor. No exclamation marks are required.

But look below now. Look to Earth. To an island paradise where man's foot has seldom trodden. Where soon a cosmic contest will determine the very fate of all there is. Watch now as five intrepid souls prepare to fight for all they know:

-"All right", Batman is the first to pose the question, "So just where are we this time?"

-"Home", Ares answers simply. The smile on his face seems genuine as he continues: "Gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to my own private backyard.

This is Paradise Island, a habitat I've spent considerable efforts planning to invade in the past, and presently an empty district with a view to Hades.

If you have any questions, now would be the time to ask them. Otherwise, I'd suggest we get strated. We have a considerable intel advantage currently going to waste"
-----


Paradise Island check-list:
-Magical arms
-The Purple Ray
-Advanced tech, force-field technology in particular
-Mythical beastiary
-Doom's Doorway

As far as I know of, these are the highlights, and Ares can walk my team through them quickly enough. Lightray and Zemo can help gather as much magical equipment as they can get to first, of which there aren't altogether many.

On the tech side of things, my team will want to protect its gear from electro-magnetic surges, which Batman can accomplish to some degree, and maybe build their own EMP as a contingency. I'm sure we all have had enough of those, though.

The only piece of advanced weaponry I've ever seen the Amazons employ was the reverse Purple Ray guns used against the OMACs. Those probably aren't around anymore, or they would have pulled them out during Amazons Attack!. Once again, Ares can at-least provide the tech folk with the direction. Most likely, my team will prefer to simply stop the other side from building them.


Ares is crucial in one other aspect here - opening Doom's Doorway. With a wave of his Staff and an arcane gesture, the realm of Hades begins to claim most of the lsland. Beyond the extra power, he uses this to reinforce the wards that used to guard Themiscyra. If possible, he even brings-back the old spell prohibiting the use of arms on the island. It's a spell that he himself had broken in the past, and it would certainly serve to simplify matters later against the Surfer, if not Wolverine.

Down below, it's Guns for Toys day in Hades, as Ares - heedful of Zemo's warning - decommisions his own troops and transports the weaponry to Areopagus. Access to the realm is already difficult, and Zemo expounds things by increasing gravity on the trail and than collapsing the entrance.



An Epilogue of Sorts, Being But a Start of Things to Come:


An air of anticipation hangs in Group B'wana's make-shift headquarters. A sense of mounting tension, and the unmistakable feeling that today is more important than the last.

Helmut Zemo is aware of all these things as he raises his glass for a toast:

-"Gentlemen, I just want to say it's been a privilege to fight by your sides. Looking at you all here gathered, I'm reminded of the one thing my father taught me I have always stuck by: The history books are filled with men who thought they could not be replaced. You have all grown quite irreplacable to me. It is my sincerest hope that we're about to make some history."

The reception for his brief pep-rally is not all that he had hoped for.

-"Indeed." Ares claps his hands slowly and with emphasis. "Indeed.

And may I add, we've been through a lot together these past few weeks. We've all learned vital lessons during this time: Baron, you and Richards learned the importance of placing trust in others, even when it's all too easy to put past grudges before you. Even the most carefully laden plans can sometimes fail. When they do, you need to be able to trust your teammates to do the best they can. Tin-Man learned he had heart all along. Sadly, it's that same heart that keeps from joining us today. Ares shakes his head, And I, I learned that violence isn't always the answer. There's only so much our world can take, after-all. We all must compromise where we can if we're to stand a chance of winning the greater conflict.

Except sometimes violence IS the answer; sometimes in life, the planet you find yourself on is an alien planet devoid of all other life-forms. Sometimes, it's a Mutant dictator's pet-rock, or the deserted islands of your once sworn enemies. You'd be forgiven then for thinking you can smash it all around, and not a soul has passed since we've been joined that still lingers in my halls.

On a final note, while our goals may not have always matched, you have each acquitted yourselves as true warriors-born. It has pleased me greatly to have fought by your sides."

"…" Batman appears to choke back a comment. Dominic Mndawe is not nearly as guarded with his words: "I've had a South-African officer talk-down to me with stories about unicorns as he tied the noose I'd have had to use to take my life. And yet I find I've never had to listen to so much crap before. Let's just get-on with things."

 

[Dark Gog]

Even mind-linked to the rest of his team, Helmut Zemo is accutely aware of Xavier's mind grasping for his own, as Ares endeavors to defend him. Something in his coat goes "Beep" as a soothing voice helps him to direct his thoughts.

They need only remain passive for the briefest moment. Lightray reports the Juggernaut's location then, and Zemo transports both he and Ares there. Xavier sneers as he senses the powerful gravimetric pull extending in a wide radius around the pair. "NOTHING stops the Juggernaut!", he bellows as he charges Ares, and his boast proves truthful as the towering giant is taken back a step.

Norrin Radd now traces his descent against the firmament, like heavy metal falling from the sky. The air catches fire in his wake, and even from a distance he can match his power with the stones'. He smiles mirthlessly. Sweat cools Zemo's brow. But his fields yet hold.

Abruptly, the Surfer changes his board's direction and leaps from its back in one smooth motion. Slowly, at the last possible moment, Ares turns his head...

...And smiles...

A portal opens where the board would have hit, and Norrin Radd has just time enough to dodge as it buries itself deep inside the ground.

Ares' focus shifts back to his opponent as he speaks: "Ordinarly I'd enjoy this, but at this moment I've a schedule to keep. They tell me you're invulnerable. That any damage you do incur you'll heal. And that may be, but right now I need you to be somewhere else, and this island has wards in place that would scatter the atoms of those seeking to use magic to leave it. Wards I choose not to protect you from. You'll just have to tell me how it went should you get back."

There is, perhaps, the faintest echo of a scream as Charles Xavier fades from view. Nearby, the Surfer lashes savagely as he attempts to unbind every molucule in Zemo's body, but the latter's on the offensive now, and Norrin's own efforts must remain divided. His mind reaches desperately to find the Gems, but they continue to ellude his senses.

"The Moonstones! Where are they?!"

Ares raises an arm, and his Staff appears. He fires it at the Surfer. Zemo continues to trace wide circles around the War God. His body in agony, Radd at-last makes the connection. But even as he does, Zemo finds his opening, and the world goes dark.


Lightray vs. Talisman


Light burns brightly as Lightray edges Talisman away from the site of Ares and the Juggernaut's clash.

Seizing the initiative, he goes directly for the Coronet, but an unseen force repels him, and his right hand now hangs loosely by his side.

Elizabeth Twoyoungman does not sit idly as this transpires. A blast of eldritch power strikes him, and he cannot transmute it. He answers in kind, but again a shield protects his target. He has the idea of working the air inside it, but before he can attempt it, he feels a grip tightening around his ankle, and looking down he sees a fern coiling at his feet.

For a moment, he is vanished from our sight, as the spirits of the land pull him to their midst. But with a searing blast he escapes, incinerating all around him. A burning sense of purpose fills him now, and the temperatures begin to rise.

spells miss their target as Lightray dances in mid-air. Building enough power, he takes a calculated risk, and heads full-on against the shield.

Both fall-down upon the ground unconscious.


Zombies vs. Amazons

[With a decided lack of zombies on acount of me being in a hurry now. Let's just say Lightray burned them all. Also, all my Regs start-off air-borne, as you will shortly see.]


The Midnighter curses, and swears again for emphasis. The lamias were a bother, and the birds were senseless slaughter that didn't even slow him down. But the hydra! He spits disgustedly. His battlechip can process a hundred-thousand different ways to end a fight, but right now he just wonders whether he will ever get the taste out of his mouth.

A shadow falls on him, and he lifts his head wearily. The Megalonosii is come, fearful subject of no Earthly myths. It raises its hooves and neighs horribly as it descends on him from the skies, its gaping maw exposing raws of deadly teeth. Already he knows a dozen methods he could use to kill this thing, but his mind wanders ahead, grasping for a way to end this charade

and suddenly he is inside the belly of the beast and the air is sparse. A Batman had taken over his systems and caused him to miscalculate the distance.
-----


"He'll survive in there until the battle's done with?"

"It takes a normal shark well over fifteen-hours to digest its prey. This guy'll probably be carving his path from its insides long before that."

Freedom Beast and Batman sit astride a much more common pegasus, of a variety native to the land. They stay sitted for a moment in silence, before slipping to the ground. A single sword-thrust had claimed both their lives, striking cleanly through their chests.

Death had spotted them below, and without a moment's hesistation, teleported into the air to throw his sword like a spear.
-----


So now it's Wolverine vs. Zemo and Ares. I'll skip the battle and say that they win.

 

[Dark Gog]

Notes:


Here are some quick reasons why I think Ares can shield Zemo from Xavier:

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwomansecretfilesovj1.jpg

http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman97p10jq7.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman12201ym8.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman12202es7.jpg

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg12zh8.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg16hn6.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg17fr2.jpg

The first scan I just came across this week. It's from an issue of Secret Files, so truthfully, it doesn't necessarily mean too much. But it does give the rest a more formal context.

Also take note that Phobos was an actual telepath himself.

If Zemo can use his headband for protection while still being linked with Ares, my team will use its prep-time to enhance and defend it. If he can't, I'd have them reverse-engineer it and give it to Ares. It seems fairly likely for Xavier to be boosted himself, but lightray could destroy that equipment himself in a heart-beat. New Gods are highly resistent to telepathy, and he's part of a mind-link and thinking at super-speed to boot, so that may well be that.

The Juggernaut

Obviously, my write-up was rather straight-forward this time about. It's entirely possible for any number of details to go differently. Even if the Surfer's board connects, though, Ares increased his size for a reason. The important thing here is that Xavier would be teleported at the earliest convenience.

There are several other ways Ares may pull a win, and I'll list them if necessary.

The Surfer

I have my reservations as to how interchangeable he truly was with his standard incarnation power-wise. I don't personally see the 616 version catching the 616 Gladiator's punch in his own, for one, even amped. And I don't think it's deniable the Exiles Surfer showed nowhere near his command of the Power Cosmic, although I still had him employ it several different ways.

One thing The Immortals' Surfer clearly cannot do is open portals, as he refers to it as a truly rare gift, and was genuinely shocked when he thought Galactus used it. (In-fact Galactus couldn't do it. He had to mind-control Blink instead.) I tend to think Zemo could probably fend for a while against most of Norrin's attacks himself, but he's further packing Lightray's Mother Box here, which, almost incidently, could also help against Xavier's telepathy, or in-case he uses gas.

The Moonstones are floating inside Ares' armor.

As a precaution, Zemo starts the fight phased.



Misc: This will be the fourth time my team faces the Midnighter, while he himself had only came-up against Lightray and Zemo the once.

Radion: Standard disclaimers apply as usual, although the only place I can see it coming from would be the Surfer after the battle starts.

Obviously I have no idea how to write Talisman, but I tried.

 

[Dark Gog]

Done.

 

[Khellendros]

Notes:Here are some quick reasons why I think Ares can shield Zemo from Xavier:

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwomansecretfilesovj1.jpg

http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman97p10jq7.jpg

http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman12201ym8.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman12202es7.jpg

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg12zh8.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg16hn6.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wonderwoman167pg17fr2.jpg

Wel, first, those times he broke mind control, it seemed mystical in nature, and being able to control normal mortals doesn't really translate to uber telepathic defense, especially for a third party.

The Juggernaut

Obviously, my write-up was rather straight-forward this time about. It's entirely possible for any number of details to go differently. Even if the Surfer's board connects, though, Ares increased his size for a reason. The important thing here is that Xavier would be teleported at the earliest convenience.

There are several other ways Ares may pull a win, and I'll list them if necessary.

Yeah, Juggs/Ares is really just an endless stalemate, until Ares could do something to stop him. Thing is, no piece of tech is going to last on Ares very long with Xavier pounding on him.

The Surfer

I have my reservations as to how interchangeable he truly was with his standard incarnation power-wise. I don't personally see the 616 version catching the 616 Gladiator's punch in his own, for one, even amped. And I don't think it's deniable the Exiles Surfer showed nowhere near his command of the Power Cosmic, although I still had him employ it several different ways.

Same guy, Norrin Radd, just an evil version of him. And alternate reality characters have been considered to be interchangeable for power uses since the beginning of the season. Exiles Surfer didn't really NEED to use his power that creatively in Exiles because he just overwhelmed all opposition up until the end. That doesn't mean he couldn't, though, ESPECIALLY for the purposes of this League.

One thing The Immortals' Surfer clearly cannot do is open portals, as he refers to it as a truly rare gift, and was genuinely shocked when he thought Galactus used it. (In-fact Galactus couldn't do it. He had to mind-control Blink instead.) I tend to think Zemo could probably fend for a while against most of Norrin's attacks himself, but he's further packing Lightray's Mother Box here, which, almost incidently, could also help against Xavier's telepathy, or in-case he uses gas.

Yeah, but Surfer doesn't need to open portals, since he can close Zemo's, whose entire power set is creative manipulation of gravity. The Mother Box may make things tougher, but when Surfer can neutralize his main offensive power it doesn't make a huge difference.

 

[Dark Gog]

Wel, first, those times he broke mind control, it seemed mystical in nature, and being able to control normal mortals doesn't really translate to uber telepathic defense, especially for a third party.

I think he has a lot of sheer psychic power, but I'll admit how well he can employ it can well be called into question. On the flip side, if we take the view that these abilities are more mystical in nature, than that furthers the likelihood that he can aid Zemo while the latter is using his headband. (Or he can just engage Xavier directly and draw his attention that way.) Also note that my entire team's mind-link also runs through a proper telepath in Dominic.

Same guy, Norrin Radd, just an evil version of him. And alternate reality characters have been considered to be interchangeable for power uses since the beginning of the season. Exiles Surfer didn't really NEED to use his power that creatively in Exiles because he just overwhelmed all opposition up until the end. That doesn't mean he couldn't, though, ESPECIALLY for the purposes of this League.

See, I'd have no problem with that logic if we were discussing, say, the Gladiator that he fought. I don't think it's quite accurate though to say he's JUST an evil Norrin, when even that world's Galactus had a diametrically opposite purpose, and, again, his powers seemed palpably different.

I've never seen 616 Surfer demonstrate that level of physical ability, for one. Technically, he should have been well aware of the Exiles group through his senses and Cosmic Awareness, if not straight away, then at-least once they've interfered with his confrontation with Galactus. Even when he does finally say he'll delve into the Power Cosmic, he's taken-down in short-order by Herald Sabretooth because "he's just a natural-born killer".

Zemo's not Sabretooth, but he's quite deadly himself, and unlike Creed -- whose credentials Norrin casually dismissed -- he *is* a physicist himself.

I also think -- but am far from certain -- the Surfer's opened portals himself in regular continuity. And of-course his board is not a deadly weapon. At the very least, they appear to have had very different focuses in using their powers.

Yeah, but Surfer doesn't need to open portals, since he can close Zemo's, whose entire power set is creative manipulation of gravity. The Mother Box may make things tougher, but when Surfer can neutralize his main offensive power it doesn't make a huge difference.

I think it's far from a given that he could just cancel-out every single thing Zemo tried. Power and skill both enter into it, and I don't think Helmut would be found wanting in either here. Two other beings he'd faced who had more than apropriate powers to do so would of-course be The Grandmaster and Genis, and in both cases he'd been able to find an opening.

And of-course, the fact that his entire power-set is the creative manipulation of gravity, and yet the Surfer, who quite probably has similar powers, had been unable to even use them to travel, should serve to illustrate just how far apart they truly are in terms of skill.


Some other points:

-Lightray actually has super-senses, and good ones at that, and a magnetic spirit would be something he's quite likely to sense.

My own first instincts on seeing the word 'mosquitos' in your strategy were to use fire or light or scatter them, both of which Lightray is amply equipped to use. Now, I don't really know what effect that would have, but it surely can't hurt.

-Where does Talisman acquire her weapons? Unless she can enchant them herself, then Ares is already extremely familiar with the territory, and my team can probably secure them in advance.

Again, it's been my impression that there aren't too many of them around to start with.

-Batman's avatars are intangible. They can neither physically attack nor seemingly be dispelled in such manner. What they can do is employ his technopathic abilities, and both the Midnighter and Death use electronic implants for both mental and physical effects. (wolverine even carries a teleporter..)

-At this stage my team's had experience in dealing with both Midnighter and Death, and are well aware that the latter teleports. An open engagement is something Dominic would be extremely unlikely to attempt. They're also mind-linked, so they have a wealth of options in tracking their opponents other then their own physical senses.

-It's a minor point, but I think a flying Deathverine would a Med. The damn midget is impossible to keep-down as it is.

-This is probably a pointless question, but I assume Talisman has used cloaking spells before (and on others)? What were the results?

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting may now begin.

 

[Khellendros]

My own first instincts on seeing the word 'mosquitos' in your strategy were to use fire or light or scatter them, both of which Lightray is amply equipped to use. Now, I don't really know what effect that would have, but it surely can't hurt.

That's what he did in the writeup. The idea was that there were so many that even when he scattered the ones in his general vicinity, more moved in to obstruct him again.

-Where does Talisman acquire her weapons? Unless she can enchant them herself, then Ares is already extremely familiar with the territory, and my team can probably secure them in advance.

As I understand it, you can't take the battleground away from another team in prep. If we were both on the Carrier, and both had Engineer on our team, one couldn't take absolute control of it from the other, until the battle started. Both would just have to take whatever precautions the writer thought up and then the voters would decide between the two in the end.

So, she found them in one of the several armories the Amazon's presumably have. As for the weapons being enchanted, well, from what I could tell from Amazon's Attack, most of their weapons are a lot more durable, sharp, etc. than mundane armaments. That was what I was referring to.

Again, it's been my impression that there aren't too many of them around to start with.

...Enough to leave, what, hundreds of warrior women? heavily armed.

-Batman's avatars are intangible. They can neither physically attack nor seemingly be dispelled in such manner. What they can do is employ his technopathic abilities, and both the Midnighter and Death use electronic implants for both mental and physical effects. (wolverine even carries a teleporter..)

Welp, my bad. Totally forgot that. Actually, didn't that avatar just upgrade the batcomputer? I don't know if that means they have the ability to shut down Celestial tech.

-At this stage my team's had experience in dealing with both Midnighter and Death, and are well aware that the latter teleports. An open engagement is something Dominic would be extremely unlikely to attempt. They're also mind-linked, so they have a wealth of options in tracking their opponents other then their own physical senses.

He may not WANT an open engagement, but come on, between the massively enhanced senses of these two he's not gonna hide for long.

-It's a minor point, but I think a flying Deathverine would a Med. The damn midget is impossible to keep-down as it is.

Eh. The voters can ignore it, since he has a teleporter it's not really vital.

[/QUOTE]-This is probably a pointless question, but I assume Talisman has used cloaking spells before (and on others)? What were the results?[/QUOTE]Yes she has, annnnd not much happened. They snuck onto the bad guy's base completely undetected and were only found out when the guy walked in on them in the middle of a rescue, but the spell's just meant to augment the armor's stealth ability.

 

[XFanTim]

I just read it all and still don't have a clue who to vote for. Could Surfer disrupt Zemo's portal? Hell if I know. Then again, could Zemo beat Surfer by means of -- what did he do again? Made "the world go dark", but I wasn't totally clear on what attack he was using. As for Xavier-Juggernaut vs. Ares, I'd think Ares could win by teleporting Xavier away, assuming he could resist Xavier's telepathy. The scans Gog posted mostly seemed more like instances of Ares influencing the minds of others, rather than a clear cut instance of someone trying to use telepathy on him and it not working. But I grant you, it seems like someone of his power level should be resistant to telepathy . . . .

I guess I'll think about it overnight and post my vote tomorrow. Any further arguments to sway me one way or another would be appreciated.

 

[Khellendros]

I just read it all and still don't have a clue who to vote for. Could Surfer disrupt Zemo's portal? Hell if I know. Then again, could Zemo beat Surfer by means of -- what did he do again? Made "the world go dark", but I wasn't totally clear on what attack he was using. As for Xavier-Juggernaut vs. Ares, I'd think Ares could win by teleporting Xavier away, assuming he could resist Xavier's telepathy. The scans Gog posted mostly seemed more like instances of Ares influencing the minds of others, rather than a clear cut instance of someone trying to use telepathy on him and it not working. But I grant you, it seems like someone of his power level should be resistant to telepathy . . . .

I guess I'll think about it overnight and post my vote tomorrow. Any further arguments to sway me one way or another would be appreciated.

The Moonstones' various powers and whatnot ALL comes from creative gravity manipulation (yes, whacky comic pseudoscience, I know). Between his senses and ability to manipulate gravity witht he Power Cosmic, Surfer can easily sense when Zemo is trying to pull some Moonstone ********s and disrupt it. He couldn't take control of the moonstones themselves, but he can stop him from using them in his vicinity, and definitely against him directly.

And, yeah, those scans were Ares freeing other people from magic based mind control, not himself from telepathic attacks from one of the more powerful minds in this thing. Not much evidence for him being IMMUNE to Xavier's telepathy.

 

[XFanTim]

The Moonstones' various powers and whatnot ALL comes from creative gravity manipulation (yes, whacky comic pseudoscience, I know). Between his senses and ability to manipulate gravity witht he Power Cosmic, Surfer can easily sense when Zemo is trying to pull some Moonstone ********s and disrupt it. He couldn't take control of the moonstones themselves, but he can stop him from using them in his vicinity, and definitely against him directly.

But doesn't that rest on the assumption that Surfer's control of gravity is greater than Zemo's control?

I'm kind of handicapped in assessing this fight because I really don't know jack about Zemo w/ Moonstones other than the little bit of time I spent reading profiles and asking Gog questions when I faced him earlier in the season.

 

[Aristotle]

I'm going with Khell.

 

[Khellendros]

I'm going with Khell.

I <3 u

 

[Khellendros]

But doesn't that rest on the assumption that Surfer's control of gravity is greater than Zemo's control?

No, it doesn't assume that. He's not taking control of the Moonstones, or turning off Zemo's power or access to his powers, he's just throwing the proverbial monkey wrench into Zemo's efforts to effect him, which I think you'd agree would take far less power and control.

 

[Dark Gog]

I guess I'll mention I thought Zemo fought rather cluelessly in Khell's write-up.

Photon was capable of teleporting through time and space himself, and the way some (AS included?) tell it, had command over all forms of energy, of which of-course gravity is one. Most significantly, per the books, the reason Zemo didn't simply stick him in a gravity shell, was that he'd already attempted it prior to their fight. Genis evolved and broke-out in his new form as Photon. So instead Zemo brought along Blackout so he could take advantage of the Darkforce, and he was still capable of placing him in a time loop using his own powers to deliever the coup de grace. Similarly, I had him draw on Ares' aresnal more than once during this competetion.

He explicitly recognized trying to overwhelm The Grandmaster with more and more power was futile, that 'his kind reveled in it'. Instead he scattered his atoms the first time, and took both their powers away the second (being under a huge power-up at the time). At no point in any of these fights, incidently, did he actually attempt to teleport himself.

He's not about to enter any battle unaware his only strategy will fail, and he has other powers to fall-back on, such as a high level of energy-manipulation, and the same trick he used on Genis. I also find it somewhat unlikely that the Surfer could respond instantaneously to any and all attempts by Zemo to bisect him, and before any portals had even begun to open. What would Helmut care if he does throw a wrench in them? That would only mean his body was ravaged by botched portals rather than disperesed through time and space.


As for Ares, I don't base the notion he's resistant to telepathy on his stature. I base it on the fact that he's an alien consciousness with ample spiritual and mental powers of his own. And while it's true that he had never been mentally attacked, it's also true that Phobos at-least was a proper psi, and had the rather nasty power of physically manifesting his victims' greatest fears to boot. If he could have realistically hoped to use those powers against his father, it's not unreasonable to assume he might have done it while Ares ripped his mind out of its mortal host and condemned it to eternal torment. (Always assuming he didn't try.)

To briefly go over Ares history again, Circe had to wipe her own mind to fool an avatar of him; his mind is capable of following - and even handling - many events at once; he's driven minds across the world to murder without even attempting to; Wonder Woman would apparently be blasted into powder merely standing in the astral shadow of the greater gods, and his own astral form was the size of planets when he turned Buchanan into his avatar. Then there's all the different ways in which he's manipulated souls, which include devouring, making a follower's spirit burn its mortal flesh, shaping, or stripping bare all corners to examine. None of this may prove a high resistence to telepathy, but it certainly seems suggestive. (And of-course, if we take the view mental and spritiual powers are too divergent to be helpful in defending, than that leaves Ares with his own avenue of attack which Xavier can't defend.)

He doesn't have to be outright immune to the Juggernaut's powers to hold-on until he can teleport him (which would be pretty damn soon), particularly as - again - he could see through his illusions. And that's saying nothing of the possible danger of simply touching a mind that's driven men to kill. He could show him any number of things to offset him, or use the same tactic I'd used previously of stirring the souls in the Akheron and letting his sense their pain.

I also note that Xavier's history facing mystical opposition is spotty at best. (Contrast the way the Enchantress expelled him from her mind with how Circe defended against his senses.)

 

[Dark Gog]

If anyone's up, I'd wait until Khell 's had a chance to reply before voting.


Edit: Two things I left-out earlier:
1) Even if Zemo couldn't effect Norrin directly, he could target and teleport the area around him. Given the spells that protect the island, the net effect would be the same.
2) Per my write-up, Ares would be powered-up on large portions of the island.

 

[Khellendros]

Photon was capable of teleporting through time and space himself, and the way some (AS included?) tell it, had command over all forms of energy, of which of-course gravity is one. Most significantly, per the books, the reason Zemo didn't simply stick him in a gravity shell, was that he'd already attempted it prior to their fight. Genis evolved and broke-out in his new form as Photon. So instead Zemo brought along Blackout so he could take advantage of the Darkforce, and he was still capable of placing him in a time loop using his own powers to deliever the coup de grace. Similarly, I had him draw on Ares' aresnal more than once during this competetion.

So, the fact that he failed to effect Genis once, but killed him when Genis had to die to move the story along means Surfer's screwed here, then? Nooot buying it. Also, a time loops wouldn't work either, since Surfer can cope with the time dilation that happens in and near a black hole almost without effort, and can even travel through time on occasion.

He explicitly recognized trying to overwhelm The Grandmaster with more and more power was futile, that 'his kind reveled in it'. Instead he scattered his atoms the first time, and took both their powers away the second (being under a huge power-up at the time). At no point in any of these fights, incidently, did he actually attempt to teleport himself.

As you said, he was operating with a second, MASSIVe energy source. Just because he knew he couldn't beat Grandmaster by simply blasting away at him doesn't mean he wasn't completely confident in his ability to win. Whereas, in my writeup, he was facing a situation where using his powers directly had failed, and his enemy was about to be in his face. Trying to take a step back and catch his breath, so to speak, does not seem out of the question.

He's not about to enter any battle unaware his only strategy will fail, and he has other powers to fall-back on, such as a high level of energy-manipulation, and the same trick he used on Genis. I also find it somewhat unlikely that the Surfer could respond instantaneously to any and all attempts by Zemo to bisect him, and before any portals had even begun to open. What would Helmut care if he does throw a wrench in them? That would only mean his body was ravaged by botched portals rather than disperesed through time and space.

Yeah... see I always treat Zemo's foresight as more of a general cosmic awareness/long range sensory thing, otherwise what the **** is the point in fighting a guy who knows how any situation will turn out, far in advance? Perhaps that's not entirely fair, but eh.

Also, why do you find it unlikely that Surfer could detect portals opening nearby? The Surfer's senses are easily sensitive enough to detect the beginnings of what would have to be a huge change in gravitational forces around him.

Also, the Surfer would only be scattered in an aborted portal if he had already begun to pass through them. The way I was writing it, he was stopping them before they could get to that point.

As for Ares, I don't base the notion he's resistant to telepathy on his stature. I base it on the fact that he's an alien consciousness with ample spiritual and mental powers of his own. And while it's true that he had never been mentally attacked, it's also true that Phobos at-least was a proper psi, and had the rather nasty power of physically manifesting his victims' greatest fears to boot. If he could have realistically hoped to use those powers against his father, it's not unreasonable to assume he might have done it while Ares ripped his mind out of its mortal host and condemned it to eternal torment. (Always assuming he didn't try.)

A God being immune to his own offspring's power is SO MUCH MORE LIKELY than his being immune to all forms of telepathic attack ever. Also, I'm not aware of the fact that he's facing an alien mind EVER being a hindrance to Xavier's telepathy, to the point of rendering it ineffectual.

To briefly go over Ares history again, Circe had to wipe her own mind to fool an avatar of him; his mind is capable of following - and even handling - many events at once; he's driven minds across the world to murder without even attempting to; Wonder Woman would apparently be blasted into powder merely standing in the astral shadow of the greater gods, and his own astral form was the size of planets when he turned Buchanan into his avatar. Then there's all the different ways in which he's manipulated souls, which include devouring, making a follower's spirit burn its mortal flesh, shaping, or stripping bare all corners to examine. None of this may prove a high resistence to telepathy, but it certainly seems suggestive. (And of-course, if we take the view mental and spritiual powers are too divergent to be helpful in defending, than that leaves Ares with his own avenue of attack which Xavier can't defend.)

Blah Blah blah none of which presents any compelling evidence for him resisting a mental attack on the level Xavier can bring about, as you admit, which just makes me angry that you wasted the time it took me to read it. Moving right along...

He doesn't have to be outright immune to the Juggernaut's powers to hold-on until he can teleport him (which would be pretty damn soon), particularly as - again - he could se through his illusions. And that's saying nothing of the possible danger of simply touching a mind that's driven men to kill. He could show him any number of things to offset him, or use the same tactic I'd used previously of stirring the souls in the Akheron and letting his sense their pain.

Oh yes, it would be in Ares' best interest to drive a mind on the level of Xavier's to want to kill. Yes, that won't **** Ares over too much. Pffft.

Also, trying to distract Xavier is not going to work, son. He spent years stuck slowly crawling out from under a mountain, having to watch telepathically on the other side of the world as mutants struggled and fought. Mother****er has supreme focus.

I also note that Xavier's history facing mystical opposition is spotty at best. (Contrast the way the Enchantress expelled him from her mind with how Circe defended against his senses.)

Yes and Ares' history of surviving telepathic assaults is nonexistent, so there you have it.

 

[Khellendros]

If anyone's up, I'd wait until Khell 's had a chance to reply before voting.


Edit: Two things I left-out earlier:
1) Even if Zemo couldn't effect Norrin directly, he could target and teleport the area around him. Given the spells that protect the island, the net effect would be the same.
2) Per my write-up, Ares would be powered-up on large portions of the island.

1) In which case Surfer could simply get out of the area.

2)Super, good for him, which would put him far over the tuber line since he's ****ing borderline anyways.

 

[Dark Gog]

A God being immune to his own offspring's power is SO MUCH MORE LIKELY than his being immune to all forms of telepathic attack ever. Also, I'm not aware of the fact that he's facing an alien mind EVER being a hindrance to Xavier's telepathy, to the point of rendering it ineffectual.

That's not how it works. It's certainly not how comic-book Greek mythology works. Zeus killed his father, Ares's fought with his, and Eris tried to kill him in the same damn issue. And Phobos was only happy to go along.

Zemo doesn't have to be aware of every single thing that might happen in a fight to notice that the guy he'll be fighting will ignore a method of attack and use it against himself instead.

As for things we've established, you've aknowledged throughout that Ares vs. Xavier would be a stalemate.

 

[XFanTim]

I will try to read the newer round of debate and cast a vote soon. In the mean time, you guys should take a break and go vote in my match with Wieg.

 

[XFanTim]

Well, I'd better go ahead and cast a vote. Some good writing and debate on both sides, so I had a hell of a time trying to make up my mind. Most of the debate seemed to be centered on the uber battles, and those would probably end up deciding the fight, so that's what I'll focus on.

I buy Khell's argument that Surfer could throw a monkey wrench in Zemo's teleportation, but as Gog points out this could actually make things worse for Surfer if he disrupted it in the middle of Zemo teleporting him. Khell argues that he could disrupt things before passing through the portal. But two points against that. (1) I've been able to find at least some scans where Zemo teleports someone without opening a portal (such as this one), so in that case there isn't a moment between when the portal forms and when they're teleported. (2) This version of Silver Surfer reacted slow enough to get teleported by Blink without being able to stop it -- in fact, slow enough enough that she was able to first send his board through a portal and then send him through a separate portal. Galactus was enhancing the distance she could send him, but there was no indication that Galactus enhanced her speed. And I'd think that Surfer would be no more or less able to sense and block Blink's teleportation than Zemo's. (It doesn't matter that Zemo's teleportation is gravity based, since Surfer controls basically all energy, not just gravity.)

In general, I think it makes sense to assume an alternate universe version of a character has the same powers as the original unless otherwise stated, but the portrayal of that character in that universe has to take precedence. Surfer not only fails to stop Blink's teleportation when he first encounters it, but he comments that it's a rare power (at least in his universe), which suggests he's not that experienced in facing it.

As for Zemo's precognition, I'm interpreting it mostly as a probability thing -- like, he can look at possible futures but not know for sure which will happen. Meaning he wouldn't know exactly how the fight would go, but at least he'd know things like "usually if I teleport myself I get killed". Maybe that's pushing him too far, I don't know, but the fact remains I'm less convinced he'd fall into Khell's trap than I am of him taking down Surfer with teleportation.

Regarding Ares vs. Xavier-Juggernaut, I agree that it's probably not fair to assume he's immune to Xavier's telepathy unless that's been explicitly shown, although at the same time it does seem to me that Ares should be immune to telepathy. That said, the Phobos thing is at least some evidence of telepathic resistance, whereas there's no reason to think Xavier could stop Ares from teleporting him away. On the other hand, if telepathy did work, it'd probably happen quicker than teleportation. I'm uncertain enough that I'm basically viewing this fight as a tie.

On the whole, though, I'd say there's a slight advantage for Gog in the uber battles. So B'wana Bet gets my vote.

 

[XFanTim]

Someone needs to bludgeon LV, Nightwing, etc. into voting so we don't end up with a lame 2-1 vote.

Plus, you both still need to vote in my match with Wieg.