DTL Season 5-Week 7 (Set 4)

Discussion in 'RPG Archives' started by DTL Commish, Dec 16, 2007.

  1. DTL Commish DTL Commisioner

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    The rules:
    This is one of four threads containing matches.
    Due to the holiday, these threads will be in use for 20 days. Days 1-12 (Dec 15-Dec 26) are strictly setup time for owners to plead their cases, tell us their team’s strategies, breakdown the match ups, and do whatever else they can/want to do to try and convince you that their team would pull out a victory. Please, let the owners do this on their own with no help from you, the fan.

    On Day 13 (Dec 27) I will post and tell everyone that voting may begin. Only after doing so will voting start. Any votes cast before I open voting will not count.

    Look over the matchups and read the owners strategies and take into consideration how in-character each character is. Afterwards, use your best judgment to decide who you think has the best chance to win the match up. (Note: The length of a writeup is up to the owner. Do not punish owners just for having a shorter writeup.)

    To vote, post the team names you think will prevail in each match. Remember, to vote for each match up or your vote will not count! The teams with the highest vote total at the end of the 20th day (Jan 3) will get a W while the other will get an L. (Equal votes will result in a tie.)

    The battleground for this week is: The X-Mansion

    The Immortals
    Xavier Juggernaut (MU)
    "Burnt Offering" Cable (MU)
    Iceman (MM)
    "Death"Wolverine (MR)
    Midnighter (DR)

    VS.

    Team Alpha Wolf Squadron
    Thor (MU)
    Dark Flash (DU)
    Steel (DM)
    Karate Kid (DR)
    Black Panther (MR)
     
  2. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    The battleground for this week is: The X-Mansion

    The Immortals
    Xavier Juggernaut (MU)
    "Burnt Offering" Cable (MU)
    Iceman (MM)
    "Death"Wolverine (MR)
    Midnighter (DR)

    VS.

    Team Alpha Wolf Squadron
    Thor (MU)
    Dark Flash (DU)
    Steel (DM)
    Karate Kid (DR)
    Black Panther (MR)[/quote]

    Once again the battle calls out to the super powerred individuals known now as the Immortals. A great booming voice calls out....

    "Hey, cool, we are home" ...... ok so it was not a great booming voice cut just Bobby (Iceman).

    Everybody seems very familiar with their surroundings except for Midnighter who takes it all in stride. Xavier Juggernaught and Cable work together to form telepathic links with the whole crew and then they sit down to discuss their opponents.

    Bobby, outspoken as usual, asks in his thoughts "so what do we know about these guys" and almost everyone realises that apart from Thor and the Black Panther information is lacking but thankfully Midnighter has heard of two others, Flash and Steel.

    Bobby then asks something with which Midnighter agrees which is "hey, since we are in the X-mansion why not just use cerebro to shut everyone down telepathically given I do not think any of these bosos are telepaths. Hell, the only one to worry about is Goldilocks (Thor) and the rest of us could team up on him".

    As much as this is tempting to Xavier he realises that he first needs to get rid of Thor and Flash before attacking the others. Nathan realises this as well.

    Xavier takes charge and tells the others what they are going to do. Cable argues a few points but agrees overall.

    Xavier will take Thor while Cable takes Dark Flash. The others will fight as a team.

    Cable realises that he is facing someone who is as fast and could potentially be even faster then Lightray who he battled with who and who travelled at the speed of light. He definitely goes in there with his TK shields up. These shields withstood poundings by the Hulk.

    Xavier has an idea of who he will face even though he never had to in his universe. However, from what he read in the files, he saw his arch enemy Cain who was the Juggernaut in this universe battled him both twice. Each time they did battle, Thor only won it by somehow sending Juggernaut away. the second time seemed almost stupid to a genius like Xavier but what could you expect with a mind like Cain's in charge of this awesome power that belonged to him.

    The others decide to battle as a team knowing together they will be stronger. They know Steel is considerably stronger and more durable then them but he has no protection against Bobby's ice powers or Wolverine's adamantium. The one thing they wonder is who the hell Karate Kid is, after all Ralph Maccio is just an actor and not that good of a martial artist in any case. The Black Panther is the one unknown to them all as he always was one to prepare his battles in advance.

    Cable goes and puts on Cerebro's interface helmet having been instructed by Xavier on its use. Xavier stays out knowing he must be there to face Thor.

    The battle begins....
     
  3. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    There are two versions of this battle. The first one is very short as you shall see.

    Version I

    Xavier and Cable are among the most powerful telepaths in the Marvel universe. They are both warriors with warrior mentalities. They know about casulties of war. Cable will also have Cerebro which he can handle with his Askani training and which increases his own awesome telepathic might.

    Now Flash has an automatic headstart at any battle given his speed. But even dark Flash cannot completely run out thought. Flash was certainly not able to do this against Fernus when he went down due to a psychic blast. Now this battle whatever the outcome would take place inside of a second.

    Assuming Cable wins which he should, the rest should be a piece of cake.

    Now the Juggernaut always had the upper hand in the physical battles he had with Thor only losing by battlefield removal. Even a Godblast combined with Mjollnir was not enough to put him away. Here there is an added advantage given Xavier can at the very least read Thor's thoughts. Know his actions before they happen. Even if Xavier could not defeat Thor by himself, with the help of Cable he should be able to put him down.

    Steel, Black Panther and the Karate Kid do not have enough to defeat Iceman, Death and Midnighter. Iceman can freeze up Steel's armour and Death and Midnighter are at least a match if not too much for the Black Panther and Val. Once, Cable and Xavier join them whoever is left standing on the other side would be put down very quickly.

    Version II

    Cable vs Dark Flash

    Cable puts a telekinetic shield around himself like X-Man did in the Hulk annual. As soon as the battle starts he attempts to.....he gets punched through the walls of the X Mansion and hit again even before his flight is through. Cable who is not harmed by the punches which just fail to crack his telekinetic shield throws out a psychic blast at Flash who is momentarily taken out of beyond light speed. Cable then gets a lock on him and shuts Flash down telepathically.

    Note from editor: This is a battle that would happen inside of a second. X Man using the same shields was able to withstand hits from an enraged Hulk. The Flash was always vulnerable to telepaths which is why he went down against Fernus...pretty easily I may add. Also note as stated above Cable defeated Lightray who battles at the speed of light.

    Juggernaut vs Thor

    "Xavier, I did not know you under this disguise. I have fought your brother many times before and have always come out the victor" says Thor.

    "Thor, you do not know me and if you did, you would not dare face me." and with that statement the Juggernaut charges.

    Thor, as usual attempts to withstand that charge and finds even with his added power cannot withstand the Juggernaut. He uses Mjollnir to strike the Juggernaut but surprisingly the Juggernaut evades the hit eventhough this forces him to .....step back. Thor is surprised but Xavier has a small smirk on his face and attempts to strike at Thor below who calls down Thunder and Lightning destroying the X Mansion. The Juggeranut is unaffected and walks through the storms toward Thor who goes back knowing he needs to use his godblast...his powers of last resort.....


    Iceman, Midnighter and Death vs. Steel, Karate Kid and the Black Panther

    These three grouped wait for their opponents when the sensors of the X Mansion tell them that they have arrived. With the mansion falling around them and thunderstorms affecting the whole area the sensors do not work for long. Iceman directly attacks Steel while the two others strike the Black Panther and Val from behind. f course no one really hits given both the Black Panther and Val are able to evade the initial strikes. Midnighter engages Val while the Black Panther engages Logan. Steel finds his armor freezing, and worse he is feeling the great cold himself while Bobby using his ice bridges to evade Steel. Steel however attacks the bridges themselves striking Bobby down who erects an ice wall. All this time he is freezing Steel himself albeit slowly so as not to harm someone who he knows is no villain. Steel finds everything going slower until the point he can no longer move and he is frozen to the core.

    Midnighter however has a much tougher time against Val who even against someone stronger and with precog battle capabilities is only holding his own.

    Death however is more then a match for the Black Panther who cannot sense Death and remains vulnerable to the adamantium (US Agents shield which was made of Vibranium was cut through by a knife made of adamantium and he declared it was the only thing that can cut through the Vibranium). Death eventually will kill the Black panther even before Iceman can prevent it.

    Val will however beat Midnighter after a tough battle. However, he will not stand against both death and Iceman.

    Thor who forced Juggernaut back with a godblast is still not a victor as Juggernaut fights against it and Cable comes to help.

    Everyone who wins goes after Thor who has helped devestate the are with the Juggernaut, but even he cannot stand the combinned might of the Immortals (minus Midnighter). Eventually Thor will be knocked out eventhough he will probably take out Iceman and death in the process.
     
  4. Harlekin Business

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    DTL, WEEK 7: TEAM ALPHA WOLF SQUADRON VS. THE IMMORTALS

    [​IMG]

    LINE-UPS:
    Team Alpha Wolf Squadron
    Thor (MU)
    Dark Flash (DU)
    Steel (DM)
    Black Panther (MR)
    Karate Kid (Pre-Crisis/Countdown) (DR)

    VS.

    The Immortals
    Xavier Juggernaut (MU)
    "Burnt Offering" Cable (MU)
    Iceman (MM)
    "Death" Wolverine (MR)
    Midnighter (DR)

    PREPARATION TIME:
    The members of Team Alpha Wolf Squadron arrive in the X-Mansion one by one. All of them have already fought alongside each other, except for Walter West, the Dark Flash. Introductions are quickly made, there’s no reason for Walter to question his teammate’s story, especially since he’s fought in this tournament before, in the Nameless Wonders. Black Panther quickly takes the lead, easily the best tactician currently on the team.

    Thor and the Panther will recognize the location as the X-Mansion. The Panther’s been here before, so he should be reasonably aware of its lay-out. Otherwise, his Kimiyo card grants him access to all areas of the mansion anyway. He potentially has clearance to visit most areas anyway, considering his marriage to Storm. Either way, the X-Mansion is like an open book to him, especially when Steel taps into the X-Men’s technology with his armour as well.

    Then, the team receives info on their opponents for this week. Thor is quite familiar with both Professor Xavier and the Juggernaut, so he can deduce what the combination of those two leads to: A super strong telepathic powerhouse. Therefore, the Squadders will have to come up with some way to block Xavier’s telepathy. The strength can be dealt with, but Juggernaut’s psionic powers are definitely the most dangerous here.

    With access to the X-Men’s systems though, this does not prove a problem. With two geniuses on the team, namely Black Panther and Steel, the creation and application of psi-protectors should be relatively easy. Not only do the X-Men themselves carry such protections, but both Steel and the Panther have faced telepathic foes in the past. These psi-blockers are pretty strong; Magneto’s helmet alone can block Xavier’s telepathy, and Beast was able to whip up a blocker capable of messing with the Phoenix’s head.

    Continuing on this line of thought, the two should be able to figure not only the purpose of Cerebra, but its dangerous application as well. Although it cannot be destroyed during preparation time, it can be arranged that the Cerebra unit explodes on the start of the battle. This either via explosives, a self-destruct sequence or simply by having Dark Flash destroy it a nano-second into the match. Either way, Cerebra will be made useless.

    Now, this applies to Cable as well, whom Thor and the Panther know (of). His telepathic powers are great, although largely unchecked. Cable has a tough time reining in its power, thereby automatically limiting himself. In fact, at this point in time, Cable’s powers are threatening to kill him. Logically, the blockers will be enough to at least keep him out of the team’s heads. His telekinesis is a threat though, so he won’t be dealt with easily.

    Thor and the Panther are similarly familiar with Iceman. Although powerful, Iceman has not yet been able to tap into his abilities fully, not like his AoA counterpart at least. This means that Iceman can at least be incapacitated for quite a length of time. Wolverine is also familiar to Thor and Black Panther, although not his “Death” incarnation. The Karate Kid will be familiar with him as well though, having faced the normal incarnation of Wolverine earlier in this competition.

    That leaves Midnighter, whom none of my characters should be familiar with. Therefore, he requires extra planning. The description on Midnighter’s powers give quite a bit away though. He will be prepared for by figuring out how to best manipulate their environment. Ultimately, the Midnighter is a purely physical character. He can be dealt with by taking him out from a distance.

    Next up is the battle.
     
  5. Harlekin Business

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    DTL, WEEK 7: TEAM ALPHA WOLF SQUADRON VS. THE IMMORTALS

    As discussed during preparation time, Cerebra is immediately destroyed upon the start of the battle. Nobody on the opposing team is able to move fast as the Dark Flash, and there’s really no defence against his assault. He can vibrate through everything, take out Cerebra and be back with his team before anyone’s blinked. Even if the two opposing telepaths somehow get a lock on his mind (unlikely), Flash is faster than the speed of thought. He should also be able to phase through telekinetic shields, so the destruction of Cerebra can’t be avoided. If either of the two telepaths is ‘using’ Cerebra, they get their mind fried, but for the sake of the match I’ll say they’re not.

    Now, both teams have incredibly good leaders, so it’s unlikely either one will be able to pull off an ambush. Both teams will be forced to search each other out, with the ubers quickly finding each other, while the regulars and mediums will have a harder time of it. With Steel taking control of the X-Mansion’s systems, Team Alpha Wolf Squadron does have some advantage, but it’s probably negligible when it comes to the actual fight.

    Let’s go to the uber battles first. You’d expect Thor to engage Juggernaut, but in the name of strategy, we’re mixing that up. While Thor will be going for Cable, Dark Flash takes on the Juggernaut. I won’t be writing out these battles, so they’ll only last a second. Knowing that Juggernaut is basically unstoppable once he comes into motion, Dark Flash immediately robs him of all of his speed, leaving the Juggernaut immobile. Even Xavier’s telepathy can’t stop an attack of this kind.

    That means we’ve got:
    Dark Flash and Thor vs. Cable
    Speed is the main thread through this battle. The team can’t allow their opponents any chance to fully tap into their powers. Lest we forget, Cable can take on the Silver Surfer in this incarnation. Now, with no civilians near, Thor and the Flash can go all out. While Thor engages Cable in physical combat, the Flash stays out of sight, and starts effecting Cable’s body. He’s shown to be able to mess with the chemicals in the brain (taking out Dr. Alchemy) and even shown complete molecular control over his own body. By applying the Speed Force creatively, the Flash starts to accelerate the T-virus in Cable’s body, forcing Cable to relocate more of his power to controlling it.

    It’s actually a tactic that has killed Cable before. The Silver Surfer atomized his cybernetic arm and as a result, Cable’s body deteriorated rapidly, burning out under his own power. Now imagine the same happening as Cable faces Thor. His body can’t handle the T-virus and his power at the same time, especially not when facing Thor at the same time. Lucky for Cable, he gets a little help from Xavier, who aids Cable telepathically.

    In fact, by now, Thor and the Flash have to work fast, because their psi-blockers won’t be able to stand up to the full might of Xavier and Cable combined. Flash moves to handle Xavier as Cable puts all of his power into taking down Thor, sacrificing himself in the process as the techno-virus takes over his body and ravages his brain, killing him.

    We’ll go the Flash/Juggernaut battle later, focussing first on the regulars and mediums:
    Steel, Black Panther and Karate Kid vs. Iceman, Wolverine and Midnighter
    I see this breaking up into individual fights. All of these guys are better off on their own, and any attempt at team-work would most likely lead to them getting in each other’s way. Especially Steel and Iceman have no business in the martial arts fest that will be the Black Panther/Wolverine and Karate Kid/Midnighter fights.

    1. Black Panther vs. Wolverine
    Let’s go to the Black Panther/Wolverine fight first. First off, let’s compare their stats and abilities. Black Panther is stronger, faster and more agile than Wolverine, and his armour is certainly of better quality as well. Wolverine’s advantage here is his adamantium skeleton. The sword can be dealt with; it will most likely be useless in close combat anyway.

    Let’s compare fighting skills then: While Wolverine undoubtedly has learned more, I’d wager the Panther is a little more proficient, especially in arts that Wolverine would not have trained in (Wakandan/African martial arts). This gives him a pretty big advantage, as he’s also quite a bit smarter than Wolverine, especially in his brainwashed state, and has a natural talent for quick-thinking.

    I can see them exchanging blows for a while, as Wolverine’s punches are mostly absorbed by the vibranium weave of the Panther’s outfit. The Panther is employing his claws to slowly hack away at Wolverine’s armour. By then, the sword will have already been cast aside. Their fight continues for a while as both become bloodied and bruised. Wolverine’s healing factor is all that’s keeping him on his feet.

    But the Panther wouldn’t be the Panther though if he didn’t have some way to take down Wolverine. The two have worked together before and the Panther’s familiar with his strengths and weaknesses. He starts hitting nerve ends in such rapid succession that Wolverine can’t fight anymore. Follow it up with a few good hits on ears and eyes, and eventually he’ll succumb under the force, and be knocked unconscious. One of the cells in the mansion should be able to hold him until the end of the battle.

    2. Karate Kid vs. Midnighter
    Of course, Midnight and the Karate Kid aren’t sitting still during that time. Midnighter would be taunting the Karate Kid about his name, and then brag some about his prediction-abilities. Thing is, Midnighter can’t predict something he doesn’t know. Val knows martial arts techniques so different, so alien, that Midnighter couldn’t even come up with them in his dreams. You can’t predict a fight when you’ve only got half the stats. Midnighter’s ‘combat computer’ can go through millions of strategies, but the Karate Kid is master of about a billion.

    That makes this an interesting match. Midnighter has a few enhancements, but the Karate Kid has taken super strength and laughed at it. Speed-wise, they’re about equal, Val also being capable to focus his chi to simulate a measure of enhanced speed. Now, this fight might take ages, but the Karate Kid has a natural advantage, knowing every martial art there is to know in the 31st century.

    His ability to sense the weakness in any object might be impaired here, since Midnighter can simply ignore pain. That doesn’t mean however that Midnighter’s body can resist the devastating attacks from the Kid. He might be able to switch off his pain receptors, and fight a little longer, but his body will still have to take the hurt. He might not feel the bones in his arm broken into a dozen pieces, but the arm will still be useless for a while.

    Like the Black Panther/Wolverine fight, this will take one hell of a long time, but eventually the Kid’s going to pull out the full arsenal. After all, it’s not like Midnighter will be skewing lethal tactics. When Val figures out Midnighter has a healing factor to boot, he’s definitely going to pull out the stops. After this fight, both their bodies will be broken and beaten. No victor, a tie, as both lose unconsciousness. The returning Panther will put the broken Midnighter in another cell, using the mansion’s tech to ensure Midnighter stays unconscious.

    Now we’ve still got Steel vs. Iceman:
    3. Steel vs. Iceman
    Now we have a tough match. When Iceman fought Guardian (from Alpha Flight) a few years back, he was able to freeze his systems, and I mean literal freezing. Thing is, with 24 hours to prepare, I expect Steel to have some kind of failsafe for that manoeuvre. I mean, we are talking Iron Man levels of smart here. He should be able to heat up his armour enough to at least stave off initial attacks. If Iceman were to go all-out though, Steel would go down with this tactic, but I don’t see him doing that.

    So what happens? Iceman throws up ice shields and fires ice blasts while moving along on his bridges. Steel can break the shields and block the blasts with his hammer. What I could see happening though is Iceman encasing Steel’s hand in solid ice, making the hammer useless, until Steel smashes the ice. It would have a detrimental effect on his armour, but his hammer has showed to be practically indestructible.

    And this is where Steel’s smarts come in. He’s a few levels above Iceman on the intelligence scale, and also has a better sense of strategy. Throwing the hammer away to avoid it being frozen again, Steel engages Iceman directly. Of course, Iceman holds him off with relative ease, and already starts bragging about victory. Which is when Steel utters the word ‘return’ and the hammer comes flying back full-force, hitting Iceman in the back.

    When Iceman is knocked down, all you need is a few well-placed blows, and he’s knocked out.

    A little recap before we go the last battle: Thor and Cable took each other out. Midnighter and the Karate Kid did the same. Black Panther defeated Wolverine and Steel won in his match against Iceman as well. That leaves the Dark Flash, who had previously frozen Xavier in place, then assisted Thor against Cable and must now face the Xavier Juggernaut again.

    Dark Flash vs. Xavier Juggernaut
    This Juggernaut is literally unstoppable. Super strength and endurance mixed in with some really powerful telepathy, and you’ve got yourself a powerhouse. Dark Flash’s psi-blocker is almost fried because of the assault from both Cable and Xavier, so he has to move fast. Luckily, running fast is exactly what Dark Flash does.

    Running at top speed, so that he could literally hit Xavier a million times before he even blinks, the Flash tries the same trick on Xavier’s brain that he did with Professor Alchemy and Cable. The magics that grant Xavier his Juggernaut power naturally resist, so the Flash will have to pull out all the stops. We’re going for brain-dead here. Sure, it’ll heal eventually, but by then, victory is already given to Team Alpha Wolf Squadron.

    Now I know telepathy has affected Flashes before, but since he’s literally running faster than Xavier can think, he should remain out of Xavier’s power. Especially when he starts messing with the structure of Xavier’s brain, by accelerating and decelerating certain parts, Xavier won’t be able to think, literally. He keels over, a vegetable.

    WINNER=TEAM ALPHA WOLF SQUADRON
     
  6. Harlekin Business

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    REBUTTAL
    How has Midnighter heard about these two? He's from a completely different reality. He's not a regular DC Comics character, but Wildstorm.

    But can they withstand phasing? Besides, Dark Flash can produce punches like the Hulk in a matter of seconds.

    If Cable doesn't want his head fried, he won't use Cerebra.

    That's because Fernus is hella fast as well. Neither Cable or Xavier have the speed of Fernus, neither in the body or the mind. Flashes can in fact outrun the speed of normal human thought. This also assumes Thor and Dark Flash wouldn't be equipped with psi-blockers, which they can create or simply take from the X-Mansion.

    Wrong assumption.

    But he can't, and since Dark Flash will be robbing Juggernaut of all momentum, he'll be pretty helpless, leading to the take-down of Cable by Thor and Flash.

    Again, unlikely. Black Panther is familiar with Iceman and Steel wouldn't be an idiot. He's not going to let Iceman just freeze all of his systems. Death certainly can't stand up to the Panther. He got taken down by a suped up Archangel. Midnighter and Karate Kid are pretty equally matched.

    Why would he be just out of light speed, and why would the Dark Flash even attempt to break the shields, instead of y'know, phasing through them?

    Fernus is also superfast, which Cable isn't. Also, Lightray doesn't actually battle at the speed of light, and you can't actually use previous matches as an argument for current matches. It's highly debatable that Cable would just take down Lightray. We only use feats that happened before the competition.

    So why not switch it up and just have Dark Flash freeze Juggernaut in his place? These guys aren't dumb.


    Unlikely, as I've already pointed out.

    The Panther has cloaking abilities himself. I also can't recall adamantium cutting through vibranium, but it doesn't really matter, since the Panther actually employs antartic vibranium, which cuts through adamantium.

    Although I agree with that assessment, I severely disagree with everything leading up to it. That's not how it would go down.
     
  7. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    DTL, WEEK 7: TEAM ALPHA WOLF SQUADRON VS. THE IMMORTALS - The Rebuttal

    First off before we start, I want to thank you for posting early giving me a chance to see it before I am off.

    Now, I want to know how you are assuming that your team has full access to the X Mansion systems which are locked down. Obviously here you are assuming that you hack into the system which you do not readily have access to and then are able to use all the equipment of the X mansion as if it was an open house.

    Now let me take a step back and remind you that all of my players here except for one know the X Mansion and some are in charge of it, or at least their own version of it. If you are assuming that you will use all the equipment there, I am assuming that my team who has normal access sets the X Mansion as a death trap for all your players. I do not know if you noticed but I down played the mansion where you seem to have used it as an important part of your strategy.

    The other thing, during the short period of prep time you are assuming that Steel and the Black Panther can convert shi'ar technology (which they are both unfamiliar with) to psi blockers powerful enough to block out both Xavier and cable. That would be a first....

    The Black panther has great prep because he generally has months and the Wakandian nation behind him....not 24 hours and a house he does not have full access to.

    I am assuming that you are stating that Dark Flash destroys Cerebra while Cable is using it and that he outruns the speed of thought.

    Now lets take thisfrom the beginning. First of all, how is it that any of your guys know where Cerebra is? It is a secret room within the X Mansion. Are you assuming the Black Panther knows? And if so, how would he know? I state this because he would have to destroy the machine in the first 10th of a second the battle starts.

    "Burnt Offering" Cable has the necessary psychic abilities to use Cerebro. So you are assuming that Flash can destroy everything before he can be hit by a psychic blast or have his mind taken over. Cable is no novice. He is an uber telepath with Askani training. He has the abilities to battle the Silver Surfer and other cosmic types who have speeds beyond light speed.

    Now this is what your whole battle relies upon. And it is the question put out to debaters. Can Flash destroy Cerebro or whoever is attacking him psychicly before Cable can shut him down.

    Just to add a point, even if Cable was not in Cerebro, he could be anywhere in the X Mansion. How in the hell would Dark Flash know where he is located?

    As I stated above you are assuming that Juggernaut is taken out and Cable is just fighting Thor here completely ignoring Dark Flash. So....Cable is completely stupid plus on top of that Xavier has even his mind frozen apparently by the speed force.....

    Ok so if Xavier can still think he is not going to go after Dark Flash at all?

    I am not quite getting how Dark Flash has free reign to affect both battles and prevent harm to himself...oh yes...your psi blockers invented in the 24 hours before the battle in a hostile location with unfamiliar alien technology.

    I obviously have no qualms here given that I saw it going the same way eventhough it was grouped so when one defeated the other, they went and helped their other teammates.

    First off, Panther is not facing Wolverine but Death which is an upgraded animal. Second, assuming that Black panther has greater fighting skills then Wolverine who has lived for over a hunderd years as a warrior is pretty optimistic. Second, his adamantium should have an effect on the Vibranium.

    Second, Black panther is not stronger and faster then Wolverine. Quite the opposite. The Black Panther is peak human. Wolverine is beyond that. Lets note a few things regarding his powers:

    And that is normal Wolverine...we have Death which is an augmented version.

    Black Panther would go down against Wolverine in single combat.


    I could agree with a stalemate but you are over writing the Black Panther and under writing Death.


    Ok so if I read this right, Steel wins because Bobby does not use his powers to the extent they need to be used. Therefore assuming Iceman who is able:

    , will decide to take it easy and let Steel edge out a win because he has forgotten his years of training in the Danger Room and battles with people like Apocolypse is going to go down because he held back and got over confident. Now, I could see it going this way if it was the Iceman from the first X Men comics and not the Iceman who is facing you here who need I remind you when provoked torturred Emma and threatenned to stop blood getting in her brain.

    Steel would lose to Iceman.

    This is where we are in total disagreement because I do not see the Black Panther beating Death nor Steel winning over Bobby, especially in the X Mansion.

    Ok first off, the Juggernaut has been immune to Kitty's powers of phasing, has been shown fighting as a skeleton and you assume here that Flash can make him brain dead before he can telepathically affect him. Xavier is protected by Cyttorak's magic, he is his incarnation on Earth. It would be surprising if Flash could affect Xavier's brain structure. The Flash cannot outrun Xavier's psi attacks and still affect Xavier's brain (that is invulnerable) at the same time. You cannot have it both ways.

    In conclusion, I don't see how the x mansion is such a freind for your team and not so helpful to mine given xavier is its founder and owner. even if this is an alternate version of Xavier. Bobby and Wolverine were also both trainned there and are long time residents. the only one with any real type of familiarity is the Black Panther and he does not have full access to it. Plus the tech is all Shi'ar tech not Wakandian tech or DC tech. PLus the Black Panther being stronger, faster and a better fighter then Wolverine is a farce and does not reflect the comics. This is not a Black Panther who has prepared for 2 months using hs nation at his beck and call before this battle.

    At the end of the day, you hinge the battle on Flash not being affected telepathically at all when it is more likely that he will. That is always how he is gone down in the past and that is how he goes down here.



    WINNER=THE IMMORTALS
     
  8. Harlekin Business

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    That's okay.

    Of course they can. The Panther's Kimiyo card can hack into just about anything and Steel's armour gives him control over technology. I don't consider this so unlikely.

    You can't do that during prep-time. It's a little odd, but we can't affect each other during preparation time, so as a consequence, you can't stop my team from raiding the X-Mansion. It's also not that important in my strategy, just taking it out of the equation.

    Uh... no, there are already psi-blockers in the mansion. Now need to convert anything.

    But together with Steel he does have full access.

    Yes.

    They have 24 hours and both BP and Thor are mildly familiar with the Mansion. Of course they can find out where Cerebra is, and its capabilities. The mansion isn't that big that someone at the speed of light can't search through it in 24 hours.

    - Psi-blocker on Flash.
    - Yes, he outruns thought.
    - The Surfer that doesn't battle at light-speed. He only goes that fast in transportation.
    - I never said he was a novice. He just isn't that fast.

    I say yes, obviously, as I expect most too.

    I never said that. Dark Flash destroys Cerebra, then comes back. From there, the ubers fight, as they logically would. Thor, Flash, Cable and Xavier would all the strategy in attacking each other quickly. Flash first goes after Juggy, who can easily be found with the mansion's systems, or y'know, super speed.

    Again, psi blockers. And Cable doesn't ignore Flash. Flash freezes Juggy with the Speed Force (completely in his power to do), then attacks Cable alongside Thor. That's in the realm of seconds. And I never said Xavier's mind was frozen. No, he's trying hard to combine with Cable and destroy the psi-blockers. It's a little hard to do though, since Cable is busy fighting Thor and Flash. This is all in my write-up.

    Where did I say that? He's working hard to fry the psi-blockers, in which he later succeeds.

    A) Flash runs faster than thought.
    B) The psi-blockers are already there, they just have to apply them.
    C) 'Hostile'? Not so. Combine Steel and Panther's prowess and any system can be subjugated.

    I know he's facing Death. It's a small upgrade. Energy sword and armour, both which can be easily taken care of. And yes, BP's a better fighter. Wolverine is primarily a brawler, with a few belts in a variety of fighting styles. BP is a master of a few. Masters beats jack of trades.

    I've already dealt with the adamantium in my own rebuttal.

    And Wolverine has no superhuman strength. Yes, he's pulled off a few good feats, but he doesn't actually have any enhanced capabilities like BP does. BP is peak human in all areas. He's equal to Captain America, who should be stronger than Wolverine.

    There is no augmentation. He just gets fancy armour and a nice sword. He's also completely brainwashed and completely dominated by Apocalypse. His own will has been dulled that he's just a machine. Panther outsmarts him.

    Yeah, no.

    Not really. Actually compare the two. Death never pulled off anything noteworthy.

    Iceman never goes all out. Which is why you're better off picking up the Iceman from the Age of Apocalypse.

    The same Apocalypse that took him down in a number of seconds? Iceman has always been overconfident. It's part of his character, and we're supposed to write these people in-character. Even in recent years he's shown to be susceptible to bragging and he certainly never goes all out. I'd also like an issue number on that Emma thing because I definitely can't recall that. Iceman doesn't torture people.

    No.

    Where are you getting this from? He's not immune to Kitty's phasing and the skeleton thing was after getting suped up to incredible levels by Cytorrak. That doesn't apply here. And yes, I do think Flash can affect him before being affected himself. This guy can run multiples of light speed. Xavier doesn't think that fast. And there's no outrunning of psi attacks. Xavier doesn't even get to pull off a psi attack. He's that fast. And the brain isn't invulnerable at all. It has an extraordinary healing factor. What Flash does though is affect certain portions of it, accelerating and decelerating. No defence against that, even if he'll get up again eventually.

    - Do you have expert hackers on your team? No. I do. Two in fact.
    - Wolverine can't actually use the tech, being practically mindless as Death.
    - There's little Shi'ar tech actually, since it's been a while since the X-Men have been on good terms with them.
    - No farce at all. Wolverine only has the adamantium strengthening his punches. He's definitely not faster or more agile than Panther.

    Except he's gone down because he was either stupid enough to slow down (which this Flash isn't, as he's generally ruthless) or because the villain had a similar amount of superspeed. Neither Xavier or Cable do that. Count in a psi-blocker, and they won't affect him.
     
  9. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    REBUTTAL

    this would be a mistake on my part and I apologise.


    Well this is where are matchups were quite different. Can they withstand phasing...I would think so given the experience Cable has.


    I do not agree with this assessment as you are assuming Flash can fry the equipment, harming Cable before the reverse can happen which could destroy the mind of Flash or better yet take him over.

    Plus the way you create psiblockers out of thin air scares me. When I was using Brainiac 417 everyone said that they disliked all this extra equipment I had him make based on tech he had in hand and knowledge way beyond anything you have. However, here you create them from scratch to block uber level telepaths like Xavier and Cable in the short period of time in hostile territory. It seems highly suspect to me.

    ok - well not much to argue given I will say it was the right assumption.


    And his telepathy is no good here plus Cable would be taking care of Flash first.


    Steel can not do much to prevent Iceman from freezing his systems. And Death is stronger, faster, and a better fighter then a peak level human like the Black Panther. I know, harl, how much you like the Black panther but he is not uber but a reg and is not a better fighter then Shang Chi or captain America both which Wolverine has defeated in single combat.


    Well lets see, Cable stunned him with a psi blast therefore he came out of light speed and plus the shields are telekinetic shields made of pure energy. He is not phasing through them.


    Cable has fought people like the Silver Surfer who all can travel at the speed of light or beyond. Cable could take the dark Flash down.


    Because that leaves him open to attacks by Cable who would be set upon at the instant the battle openned. Dark Flash cannot both prevent cable from harming him, neutralise Xavier and destroy Cerebro all at the same time.



    You pointed out wrong as I pointed out.


    Wel it did and the Black Panther's usual uniform is made of Wakandian Vibranium which is not antartic vibranium which in itself is not immune to Wolverine's adamantium claws.

    I would just like to note that normal Wolverine has been shown to be somewhat slower then the Black panther but not weaker. In addition, in a recent comic Sabretooth was holding the Black panther by the arm and threatenning to tear it off when Wolverine cut Sabretooth's arm off.

    I will give it to you that a battle with nmrmal Wolverine could be written either way depending on who the writer was but against death I don't see that happening.


    Well you know that is why this is a debate.

    By the way, happy holidays, if we do not "speak" again. :)
     
  10. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    IOt feels like I am back at the contest of Marvels ;)

    First off, it is alien tech which was the basis of most of the tech in there and second off, its not like BP and Steel are going to lock out people who created the system.


    I can just as easily affect the systems so that they react to hostiles once the batle starts. You are saying you are hacking the system preventing it. I am saying as the owner of the system I am having it prepare all measures it can against hostiles.


    Really...where are they and how do they work against ubers such as xavier and cable. It seems a bit too convenient to me and it is funny that we arrely see the such.


    I am not sure about full access....


    No


    The mansion has closed off rooms and mildly familiar is not very familiar at all.


    Again, he has been repeatedly affected by psychicsa and these psi blockers which you have created out of thin air seem to be an essential part of your plan. Along with Cerebro being destroyed before it could be used.


    And I say no, as I would expect most to.


    This is where I do not agree given Cable is going after the Flash with his psychic abilities and therefore him running out Cable's thoughts and destroying Cerebro at the same time and freezing up the Juggernaut seems highly implausible to me.


    I am just stating that it seems you have Cerebro destroyed a bit too quickly given when Dark Flash vibrates through something he does not make it explode like Flash, and the phasing through things does take effort. So therefore it does not seem plausible to me that Juggernaut is robbed of momentum, and destroyed cerebro at the same time. Next, why can't cable just crush the psi blockers even if they exist. And what happens when they are gone.


    Let me see - telekinesis, psi blockers crushed, telepathic vulnerability.


    You know can you show me Flash evading psychic because the examples I have of him against the Martians shows him going down quite easily.


    Nice quip there...I give you that BP is a smudgeon faster but he is also weaker and Wolverine has outfought people like Captain America. Second, adamantium has cut through vibranium before.

    No you did not if you read my rebuttal. The Black Panther wears a Wakandian type of Vibranium not the Antartic type.

    He does have a measure of super strength because of his adamantium skeleton. And Cap was not stronger the Wolverine.


    I am not going to argue this one eternally but lets just say it is unlikely with the healing factor Death has, plus the added protection, the Black panther will put him down before he himself tires out.


    Actually, as much as I hate to admit it, he did almost eviscerate the Hulk.


    In a protracted battle he may and he certainly will not fall for oh I forgot the hammer that hits me from behind trick. Steel would be frozen in place long before that.


    It was during the Decimation run. I don't have the actual issue number.

    First of all he is magically invulnerable and second of all I have never seen a Flash do micro surgery with the speed force. Also him running out thought does not see quite right to me...atleast the Flash you have. Barry Allen could run out thought when that was all he was doing but not all the flashes could. You have a an alternate bitter version of Wally. Also, multiples of light speed is a joke. He can run just faster then light speed not multiples of it. He does not run at "warp factor 9".


    I have owners of the system on my team operating on home territory.

    Xavier and cable easily break through to the mind of Death so really that is not an issue.

    Almost all the tech is shi'ar based even if the shi'ar have not provided them with it in recent years.

    I was mistaken if I said he was faster but him losing so easily is a farce. In any case, this battle is not primordial to the overall result.


    I just would like you to show me one example of a Flash avoiding a psychic who also happens to have telekinetic powers.
     
  11. Harlekin Business

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    Experience doesn't factor into this. He can phase through them.

    Not that hard. Lightspeed through the mansion, destroy the equipment and return. This literally happens in the blink of an eye.

    - The problem was that you equipped everyone with multiple technological applications that nearly made them invulnerable and unlike their characters. I just pull out psi-blockers.
    - Beast created, on the fly, a psi-blocker that could mess with the Phoenix. Baron Zemo, a mid-level scientist at best, has created a psi-blocker without too much effort. Magneto, not a scientist at all, has created a psi-blocker in his helmet. I've got two geniuses in a location with all the material they need.

    How? Flash is too fast.

    As if Black Panther's feats are nothing? He took down Karnak in one hint. Has taken down Iron Fist. This isn't a cake walk for either of them, which I never suggested, but the Panther has the unmistakable edge.

    How does Cable do this? Remember, Flash does lightspeed.

    Keyword is travel, not battle. The Surfer doesn't battle at super speed.

    He destroys Cerebra before anyone blinks. Then Thor engages Cable while Flash neutralizes Xavier. Then him and Thor gang up on Cable.

    Yeah, but the Panther's claws are.

    Black Panther has also taken down Sabretooth before, so really, doesn't hold up much.

    You seem to think this Death thing is a massive upgrade. It isn't. It's just Wolverine as a machine.

    The same to you, friend.

    Actually, that is most likely. Xavier has never seen this tech before, being from an alternate reality. Iceman has absolutely no knowledge of the tech, and the same goes for Wolverine. On my team you've got two extremely experienced hackers.

    I think my hackers beat your not so tech-savvy guys.

    Beast created one on the fly against the Phoenix. There's more, but I'll have to look them up. I've already pointed out though how easy it is to create a psi-blocker.

    I am.

    Lightspeed + phasing = knowing all of the mansion in a matter of seconds.

    Are Cable and Xavier super fast? No. There's your answer.

    Not at the same time at all. You're misreading my posts there. First, destroy Cerebra. Return, then freeze Xavier. Run out again and help Thor. He does this all at lightspeed. Unlike other Flashes, Walter is always in motion.

    Actually, that's quite the misconception there. Dark Flash can do everything the Flash can and more, and controlled too. If he wants it exploded, it explodes. His fine control over the Speed Force is unparalleled among the Flashes. How is Cable going to crush the psi-blocker? He might pull that off on Thor, but he can't touch Flash.

    Last time: Martians have super speed. Cable and Xavier don't.

    And antartic vibranium cuts through adamantium.

    Trust me, I know this. The claws though are a different matter.

    Black Panther can fight for days on end. He doesn't tire easily.

    His one notable feat, after a beating by Hulk.

    Steel also has a measure of super speed. It's unlikely he could pull off a full freeze.

    Read this thread. You'll see some interesting feats by Walter West, including the brain feat on Dr. Alchemy. I'm not making this stuff up. Wally West is a lot more proficient (faster too) than Barry Allen. Walter West is even more proficient than that. If you believe Barry can pull this stuff off, then Walter can do it too.

    Owners unproficient in the application of the systems.

    Then you lose the effectiveness of Death. The whole reason they had trouble with him was because he was a mindless killing machine.

    Nope. The mansion has been destroyed and robbed of that tech in the meantime. There's hardly any Shi'ar tech left.

    I'd like for you to point where I said he would lose easily.

    Quicksilver's done it and Flash is quite a bit faster than that.
     
  12. Ahura Mazda Registered

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    Again, these are telekinetic shield made up of energy and therefore not as phasable as armour. Cable can bend energy which is at the speed of light to protect himself. It is not the same thing as hard surfaces which do not fluctuate like energy does. Why for example has the Green Lantern able to encompass Flash types using his energy seals and they have not been able to phase through if not that they are made of energy and therefore a very different type of phasing.


    Yes and a blink is all Cable would need to shut him down. I would just like to note that I strongly disagree with Flash doing three major feats before my guys can make a move. Your feats being 1. Outrunning thought (I am assuming cable crushes the psi blockers (not that I agree with them)), 2. attacks and destroys Cerebro and 3. freezes the Juggernaut. I have looked at the respec thread and from what I can see he does things in sequence and remains vulnerable to being hit. Even in the battle with Wally, you see the girl actually make a movement while they fight. At the speed you are having the dark Flash do battle, no movement could ever have happenned. And we are talking about running out Cable's powetrs which has to be considerably faster then light speed which I have not seen happen while the Flash was fighting. This ias you have pointed out is not travel.


    Magneto created it over we do not know how much time amd in any case how do you prevent cable from crushing them at the first instant of battle. Plus I would like to add we have a magically enhanced Xavier on top of an uber powerred telekinetic/telepathic beast named Cable. In his own universe, none of the great minds such as Reed or Banner were able to create psi blockers to block him out but here for your story they conveniently exist.


    I am not so sure on that after checking you respect thread where you see he is incapable of running away from Kadabra's spells. There is an image of him even being struck by lightening knocking him down. A thought would be faster. We are talking (and this is assuming the psi-blockers are in play even though I do not agree with them) about a person who could hold up an island and battle the Silver Surfer at the same time. he could do both while the Flash is destroying Cerebro.


    I am assuming that is in the Hudlin Black Panther comic which also had him do other stupid feats. I do not know how he one hit Karanak but given Wolverine/Death's healing prowess one hit will not do it.


    Cable has battled light speed opponents before and won. Plus Flash would have to fight at several levels beyond light speed while defending himself against major psi attacks.


    Well in the comic books and in your thread from what I can see neither does this Flash do battle at a speed constantly above light speed which is what you have him at to make the whole basis of your write up sensible.


    The Psi blockers are gone the first instant of battle if they ever existed. Cable can just as easily telepathically and telekinetically attack simultaneously in the first instant of battle. Flash, based on battle feats, is not going to defend his whole team against all the Psi attacks plus freeze Xavier plus destroy Cerebro.


    Meaning both can harm each other while Wolverine can heal instantaneously and the Black panther cannot.


    Yes he has but he has also lost.


    I never stated that he is stronger or faster. Just he is more focused and is better protected plus he is undetectable.


    He has the equivalent X Mansion (maybe not exactly but close) in his universe plus Cable is very familiar with the technology, not to mention Bobby who grew up there.


    Cable is pretty techno savy himself and can even interface his techno-organic body parts with machinery, using them to hack into computers and open electronic locks.

    Cable is able to control energy with his mind this is fast, plus we are not talking about running speed but combat movements and thoughts.


    And in that scenario, cable gets the one up given he is given an instant. I am talking of an instant close to a nano second here.


    Yes he can based on everything I have stated above.


    Wolverine has motre stamina for he does have his healing factor which the Black panther does not.


    Not enough to prevent freezing.


    I do not agree given Bobby has showd some competency in the past and cable has hacked into many computers.


    No I do not given the power of the telepaths I have plus the relative ruthlessness of Xavier.


    You misread what I said. I stated that the tech there is Shi'ar based not that it is shi'ar tech.


    Simply, that the Panther is able to go help others as if he goes through this with no harm to himself.


    I do not know about Quicksilver doing it but I have certainly never seen the Flash do it and that is what I ask. Plus it would be even nicer if you show him doing this while fighting others and saving machinery which is on him. I have not seen one example but i have seen flash put down.

    At the level you have him fighting here he would be the most powerful creature in the universe given he can do several acts before anyone can move or more importantly think. However, he has had his difficulties in the past and telepaths has been one of his major weaknesses.

    Another thing with affecting juggernaut's brain, I do not think it is possible in the way you suggest. He is again magically protected, heals instantly, plus he can be wearing his helmet which is part of his protection.


    In any case, I think we are done here.

    If you believe Flash can do everything at the same time before Cable's thoughts can affect him, then the battle pretty much is done.

    Other minor points are Steel taking out Iceman who if he wins could take care of both of the regs.

    The Wolverine battle is pretty minor in the overall picture because neither could do much against Thor or Flash nor Cable or xavier. Of course, Wolverine could affect Steel.

    All the best to every one and happy holidays.
     
  13. AnnoyingSilence YOU will be next...

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    yea. seriously guys... i'm NOT gonna read all this.

    people, read a rebuttle each... thats what i'm doin(even doing that is gonna take a long time)
     
  14. XFanTim Two-Time DTL Champion

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    AS, please don't encourage people not to read what's been written. Everyone is expected to read the whole match before voting, as per DTL rules. Given that voting hasn't even opened yet, there's hopefully plenty of time.
     
  15. Khellendros Registered

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    Hahaha ****ing CHRIST you are worthless.
     
  16. Khellendros Registered

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    Also, has it been brought up yet (I'm still in the process of reading the arguments, but am impatient) that our version of Cable has fought and rather easily beaten a guy who moves at light speed? Just thought I'd toss that out there, in case there's some clarification needed on how fast he is.
     
  17. Harlekin Business

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    Yes, that has been mentioned but I will see this again: The Silver Surfer does not battle at lightspeed. That's a big difference from the Flash.

    I'm not going to respond anymore though. It's getting too much. I'll just await the votes.
     
  18. Khellendros Registered

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    Uhhh, yeah, wasn't talking about the Surfer there, sport.
     
  19. Harlekin Business

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    Sorry, who did he beat then? And please don't say Lightray. That can't be used, per the rules.
     
  20. DTL Commish DTL Commisioner

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    Voting may now begin.
     
  21. Khellendros Registered

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    Nope. A guy named Lightmaster, who was pure light, moved at light speed, could create light constructs, all that good stuff.
     
  22. Harlekin Business

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    Lightmaster, who got beat by Spider-Man? That makes me doubt that he goes light speed in combat.
     
  23. Khellendros Registered

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    Except it was flatout stated that in his fight with CAble, he was made of pure light, and traveling at light speed. Cable wrapped him in metal, teleported him to the moon, and then threw up a shield just as he was coming back to Earth. Actually, Cable implied he was traveling a bit faster than lightspeed, saying he was a tenth of a second earlier than expected. Don't know how that's possible, though.
     
  24. Harlekin Business

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    Odd. Do you have scans?
     
  25. Khellendros Registered

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    Not yet, I'll scrounge some up, though.
     

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